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May 2010
May 2010
Believe It or Not

I think I am very close to concluding that this whole “New Atheism” movement is only a passing fad—not the cultural watershed its purveyors imagine it to be, but simply one of those occasional and inexplicable marketing vogues that inevitably go the way of pet rocks, disco, prime-time soaps, and The Bridges of Madison County. This is not because I necessarily think the current “marketplace of ideas” particularly good at sorting out wise arguments from foolish. But the latest trend in à la mode godlessness, it seems to me, has by now proved itself to be so intellectually and morally trivial that it has to be classified as just a form of light entertainment, and popular culture always tires of its diversions sooner or later and moves on to other, equally ephemeral toys.

Take, for instance, the recently published 50 Voices of Disbelief: Why We Are Atheists. Simple probability, surely, would seem to dictate that a collection of essays by fifty fairly intelligent and zealous atheists would contain at least one logically compelling, deeply informed, morally profound, or conceptually arresting argument for not believing in God. Certainly that was my hope in picking it up. Instead, I came away from the whole drab assemblage of preachments and preenings feeling rather as if I had just left a large banquet at which I had been made to dine entirely on crushed ice and water vapor.

To be fair, the shallowness is not evenly distributed. Some of the writers exhibit a measure of wholesome tentativeness in making their cases, and as a rule the quality of the essays is inversely proportionate to the air of authority their authors affect. For this reason, the philosophers—who are no better than their fellow contributors at reasoning, but who have better training in giving even specious arguments some appearance of systematic form—tend to come off as the most insufferable contributors. Nicholas Everitt and Stephen Law recycle the old (and incorrigibly impressionistic) argument that claims of God’s omnipotence seem incompatible with claims of his goodness. Michael Tooley does not like the picture of Jesus that emerges from the gospels, at least as he reads them. Christine Overall notes that her prayers as a child were never answered; ergo, there is no God. A.C. Grayling flings a few of his favorite papier-mâché caricatures around. Laura Purdy mistakes hysterical fear of the religious right for a rational argument. Graham Oppy simply provides a précis of his personal creed, which I assume is supposed to be compelling because its paragraphs are numbered. J.J.C. Smart finds miracles scientifically implausible (gosh, who could have seen that coming?). And so on. Adèle Mercier comes closest to making an interesting argument—that believers do not really believe what they think they believe—but it soon collapses under the weight of its own baseless presuppositions.

The scientists fare almost as poorly. Among these, Victor Stenger is the most recklessly self-confident, but his inability to differentiate the physical distinction between something and nothing (in the sense of “not anything as such”) from the logical distinction between existence and nonexistence renders his argument empty. The contributors drawn from other fields offer nothing better. The Amazing Randi, being a magician, knows that there is quite a lot of credulity out there. The historian of science Michael Shermer notes that there are many, many different and even contradictory systems of belief. The journalist Emma Tom had a psychotic scripture teacher when she was a girl. Et, as they say, cetera. The whole project probably reaches its reductio ad absurdum when the science-fiction writer Sean Williams explains that he learned to reject supernaturalism in large part from having grown up watching Doctor Who.

So it goes. In the end the book as a whole adds up to absolutely nothing—as, frankly, do all the books in this new genre—and I have to say I find this all somewhat depressing. For one thing, it seems obvious to me that the peculiar vapidity of New Atheist literature is simply a reflection of the more general vapidity of all public religious discourse these days, believing and unbelieving alike. In part, of course, this is because the modern media encourage only fragmentary, sloganeering, and emotive debates, but it is also because centuries of the incremental secularization of society have left us with a shared grammar that is perhaps no longer adequate to the kinds of claims that either reflective faith or reflective faithlessness makes.

The principal source of my melancholy, however, is my firm conviction that today’s most obstreperous infidels lack the courage, moral intelligence, and thoughtfulness of their forefathers in faithlessness. What I find chiefly offensive about them is not that they are skeptics or atheists; rather, it is that they are not skeptics at all and have purchased their atheism cheaply, with the sort of boorish arrogance that might make a man believe himself a great strategist because his tanks overwhelmed a town of unarmed peasants, or a great lover because he can afford the price of admission to a brothel. So long as one can choose one’s conquests in advance, taking always the paths of least resistance, one can always imagine oneself a Napoleon or a Casanova (and even better: the one without a Waterloo, the other without the clap).

But how long can any soul delight in victories of that sort? And how long should we waste our time with the sheer banality of the New Atheists—with, that is, their childishly Manichean view of history, their lack of any tragic sense, their indifference to the cultural contingency of moral “truths,” their wanton incuriosity, their vague babblings about “religion” in the abstract, and their absurd optimism regarding the future they long for?

I am not—honestly, I am not—simply being dismissive here. The utter inconsequentiality of contemporary atheism is a social and spiritual catastrophe. Something splendid and irreplaceable has taken leave of our culture—some great moral and intellectual capacity that once inspired the more heroic expressions of belief and unbelief alike. Skepticism and atheism are, at least in their highest manifestations, noble, precious, and even necessary traditions, and even the most fervent of believers should acknowledge that both are often inspired by a profound moral alarm at evil and suffering, at the corruption of religious institutions, at psychological terrorism, at injustices either prompted or abetted by religious doctrines, at arid dogmatisms and inane fideisms, and at worldly power wielded in the name of otherworldly goods. In the best kinds
of unbelief, there is something of the moral grandeur of the prophets—a deep and admirable abhorrence of those vicious idolatries that enslave minds and justify our worst cruelties.

But a true skeptic is also someone who understands that an attitude of critical suspicion is quite different from the glib abandonment of one vision of absolute truth for another—say, fundamentalist Christianity for fundamentalist materialism or something vaguely and inaccurately called “humanism.” Hume, for instance, never traded one dogmatism for another, or one facile certitude for another. He understood how radical were the implications of the skepticism he recommended, and how they struck at the foundations not only of unthinking faith, but of proud rationality as well.

A truly profound atheist is someone who has taken the trouble to understand, in its most sophisticated forms, the belief he or she rejects, and to understand the consequences of that rejection. Among the New Atheists, there is no one of whom this can be said, and the movement as a whole has yet to produce a single book or essay that is anything more than an insipidly doctrinaire and appallingly ignorant diatribe.

If that seems a harsh judgment, I can only say that I have arrived at it honestly. In the course of writing a book published just this last year, I dutifully acquainted myself not only with all the recent New Atheist bestsellers, but also with a whole constellation of other texts in the same line, and I did so, I believe, without prejudice. No matter how patiently I read, though, and no matter how Herculean the efforts I made at sympathy, I simply could not find many intellectually serious arguments in their pages, and I came finally to believe that their authors were not much concerned to make any.

What I did take away from the experience was a fairly good sense of the real scope and ambition of the New Atheist project. I came to realize that the whole enterprise, when purged of its hugely preponderant alloy of sanctimonious bombast, is reducible to only a handful of arguments, most of which consist in simple category mistakes or the kind of historical oversimplifications that are either demonstrably false or irrelevantly true. And arguments of that sort are easily dismissed, if one is hardy enough to go on pointing out the obvious with sufficient indefatigability.

The only points at which the New Atheists seem to invite any serious intellectual engagement are those at which they try to demonstrate that all the traditional metaphysical arguments for the reality of God fail. At least, this should be their most powerful line of critique, and no doubt would be if any of them could demonstrate a respectable understanding of those traditional metaphysical arguments, as well as an ability to refute them. Curiously enough, however, not even the trained philosophers among them seem able to do this. And this is, as far as I can tell, as much a result of indolence as of philosophical ineptitude. The insouciance with which, for instance, Daniel Dennett tends to approach such matters is so torpid as to verge on the reptilian. He scarcely bothers even to get the traditional “theistic” arguments right, and the few ripostes he ventures are often the ones most easily discredited.

As a rule, the New Atheists’ concept of God is simply that of some very immense and powerful being among other beings, who serves as the first cause of all other things only in the sense that he is prior to and larger than all other causes. That is, the New Atheists are concerned with the sort of God believed in by seventeenth- and eighteenth-century Deists. Dawkins, for instance, even cites with approval the old village atheist’s cavil that omniscience and omnipotence are incompatible because a God who infallibly foresaw the future would be impotent to change it—as though Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, and so forth understood God simply as some temporal being of interminable duration who knows things as we do, as external objects of cognition, mediated to him under the conditions of space and time.

Thus, the New Atheists’ favorite argument turns out to be just a version of the old argument from infinite regress: If you try to explain the existence of the universe by asserting God created it, you have solved nothing because then you are obliged to say where God came from, and so on ad infinitum, one turtle after another, all the way down. This is a line of attack with a long pedigree, admittedly. John Stuart Mill learned it at his father’s knee. Bertrand Russell thought it more than sufficient to put paid to the whole God issue once and for all. Dennett thinks it as unanswerable today as when Hume first advanced it—although, as a professed admirer of Hume, he might have noticed that Hume quite explicitly treats it as a formidable objection only to the God of Deism, not to the God of “traditional metaphysics.” In truth, though, there could hardly be a weaker argument. To use a feeble analogy, it is rather like asserting that it is inadequate to say that light is the cause of illumination because one is then obliged to say what it is that illuminates the light, and so on ad infinitum.

The most venerable metaphysical claims about God do not simply shift priority from one kind of thing (say, a teacup or the universe) to another thing that just happens to be much bigger and come much earlier (some discrete, very large gentleman who preexists teacups and universes alike). These claims start, rather, from the fairly elementary observation that nothing contingent, composite, finite, temporal, complex, and mutable can account for its own existence, and that even an infinite series of such things can never be the source or ground of its own being, but must depend on some source of actuality beyond itself. Thus, abstracting from the universal conditions of contingency, one very well may (and perhaps must) conclude that all things are sustained in being by an absolute plenitude of actuality, whose very essence is being as such: not a “supreme being,” not another thing within or alongside the universe, but the infinite act of being itself, the one eternal and transcendent source of all existence and knowledge, in which all finite being participates.

It is immaterial whether one is wholly convinced by such reasoning. Even its most ardent proponents would have to acknowledge that it is an almost entirely negative deduction, obedient only to something like Sherlock Holmes’ maxim that “when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.” It certainly says nearly nothing about who or what God is.

But such reasoning is also certainly not subject to the objection from infinite regress. It is not logically requisite for anyone, on observing that contingent reality must depend on absolute reality, to say then what the absolute depends on or, on asserting the participation of finite beings in infinite being, further to explain what it is that makes being to be. Other arguments are called for, as Hume knew. And only a complete failure to grasp the most basic philosophical terms of the conversation could prompt this strange inversion of logic, by which the argument from infinite regress—traditionally and correctly regarded as the most powerful objection to pure materialism—is now treated as an irrefutable argument against belief in God.

But something worse than mere misunderstanding lies at the base of Dawkins’ own special version of the argument from infinite regress—a version in which he takes a pride of almost maternal fierceness. Any “being,” he asserts, capable of exercising total control over the universe would have to be an extremely complex being, and because we know that complex beings must evolve from simpler beings and that the probability of a being as complex as that evolving is vanishingly minute, it is almost certain that no God exists. Q.E.D. But, of course, this scarcely rises to the level of nonsense. We can all happily concede that no complex, ubiquitous, omniscient, and omnipotent superbeing, inhabiting the physical cosmos and subject to the rules of evolution, exists. But who has ever suggested the contrary?

Numerous attempts have been made, by the way, to apprise Dawkins of what the traditional definition of divine simplicity implies, and of how it logically follows from the very idea of transcendence, and to explain to him what it means to speak of God as the transcendent fullness of actuality, and how this differs in kind from talk of quantitative degrees of composite complexity. But all the evidence suggests that Dawkins has never understood the point being made, and it is his unfortunate habit contemptuously to dismiss as meaningless concepts whose meanings elude him. Frankly, going solely on the record of his published work, it would be rash to assume that Dawkins has ever learned how to reason his way to the end of a simple syllogism.

To appreciate the true spirit of the New Atheism, however, and to take proper measure of its intellectual depth, one really has to turn to Christopher Hitchens. Admittedly, he is the most egregiously slapdash of the New Atheists, as well as (not coincidentally) the most entertaining, but I take this as proof that he is also the least self-deluding. His God Is Not Great shows no sign whatsoever that he ever intended anything other than a rollicking burlesque, without so much as a pretense of logical order or scholarly rigor. His sporadic forays into philosophical argument suggest not only that he has sailed into unfamiliar waters, but also that he is simply not very interested in any of it. His occasional observations on Hume and Kant make it obvious that he has not really read either very closely. He apparently believes that Nietzsche, in announcing the death of God, literally meant to suggest that the supreme being named God had somehow met his demise. The title of one of the chapters in God Is Not Great is “The Metaphysical Claims of Religion Are False,” but nowhere in that chapter does Hitchens actually say what those claims or their flaws are.

On matters of simple historical and textual fact, moreover, Hitchens’ book is so extraordinarily crowded with errors that one soon gives up counting them. Just to skim a few off the surface: He speaks of the ethos of Dietrich Bonhoeffer as “an admirable but nebulous humanism,” which is roughly on a par with saying that Gandhi was an apostle of the ruthless conquest and spoliation of weaker peoples. He conflates the histories of the first and fourth crusades. He repeats as fact the long discredited myth that Christians destroyed the works of Aristotle and Lucretius, or systematically burned the books of pagan antiquity, which is the very opposite of what did happen. He speaks of the traditional hostility of “religion” (whatever that may be) to medicine, despite the monastic origins of the modern hospital and the involvement of Christian missions in medical research and medical care from the fourth century to the present. He tells us that countless lives were lost in the early centuries of the Church over disputes regarding which gospels were legitimate (the actual number of lives lost is zero). He asserts that Myles Coverdale and John Wycliffe were burned alive at the stake, although both men died of natural causes. He knows that the last twelve verses of Mark 16 are a late addition to the text, but he imagines this means that the entire account of the Resurrection is as well. He informs us that it is well known that Augustine was fond of the myth of the Wandering Jew, though Augustine died eight centuries before the legend was invented. And so on and so on (and so on).

In the end, though, all of this might be tolerated if Hitchens’ book exhibited some rough semblance of a rational argument. After all, there really is a great deal to despise in the history of religion, even if Hitchens gets almost all the particular details extravagantly wrong. To be perfectly honest, however, I cannot tell what Hitchens’ central argument is. It is not even clear what he understands religion to be. For instance, he denounces female circumcision, commendably enough, but what—pray tell—has that got to do with religion? Clitoridectomy is a widespread cultural tradition of sub-Saharan Africa, but it belongs to no particular creed. Even more oddly, he takes indignant note of the plight of young Indian brides brutalized and occasionally murdered on account of insufficient dowries. We all, no doubt, share his horror, but what the hell is his point?

As best I can tell, Hitchens’ case against faith consists mostly in a series of anecdotal enthymemes—that is to say, syllogisms of which one premise has been suppressed. Unfortunately, in each case it turns out to be the major premise that is missing, so it is hard to guess what links the minor premise to the conclusion. One need only attempt to write out some of his arguments in traditional syllogistic style to see the difficulty:


 


Major Premise: [omitted]

Minor Premise: Evelyn Waugh was always something of a bastard, and his Catholic chauvinism often made him even worse.

Conclusion: “Religion” is evil.

 


Or:


 


Major Premise: [omitted]

Minor Premise: There are many bad men who are Buddhists.

Conclusion: All religious claims are false.

 


Or:


 


Major Premise: [omitted]

Minor Premise: Timothy Dwight opposed
smallpox vaccinations.

Conclusion: There is no God.

 


One could, I imagine, counter with a series of contrary enthymemes. Perhaps:


 


Major Premise: [omitted]

Minor Premise: Early Christians built hospitals.

Conclusion: “Religion” is a good thing.

 


Or:


 


Major Premise: [omitted]

Minor Premise: Medieval scriptoria saved much of the literature of classical antiquity from total eclipse.

Conclusion: All religious claims are true.

 


Or:


 


Major Premise: [omitted]

Minor Premise: George Bernard Shaw opposed smallpox vaccinations.

Conclusion: There is a God.

 


But this appears to get us nowhere. And, in the end, I doubt it matters.

The only really effective antidote to the dreariness of reading the New Atheists, it seems to me, is rereading Nietzsche. How much more immediate and troubling the force of his protest against Christianity seems when compared to theirs, even more than a century after his death. Perhaps his intellectual courage—his willingness to confront the implications of his renunciation of the Christian story of truth and the transcendent good without evasions or retreats—is rather a lot to ask of any other thinker, but it does rather make the atheist chic of today look fairly craven by comparison.

Above all, Nietzsche understood how immense the consequences of the rise of Christianity had been, and how immense the consequences of its decline would be as well, and had the intelligence to know he could not fall back on polite moral certitudes to which he no longer had any right. Just as the Christian revolution created a new sensibility by inverting many of the highest values of the pagan past, so the decline of Christianity, Nietzsche knew, portends another, perhaps equally catastrophic shift in moral and cultural consciousness. His famous fable in The Gay Science of the madman who announces God’s death is anything but a hymn of atheist triumphalism. In fact, the madman despairs of the mere atheists—those who merely do not believe—to whom he addresses his terrible proclamation. In their moral contentment, their ease of conscience, he sees an essential oafishness; they do not dread the death of God because they do not grasp that humanity’s heroic and insane act of repudiation has sponged away the horizon, torn down the heavens, left us with only the uncertain resources of our will with which to combat the infinity of meaninglessness that the universe now threatens to become.

Because he understood the nature of what had happened when Christianity entered history with the annunciation of the death of God on the cross, and the elevation of a Jewish peasant above all gods, Nietzsche understood also that the passing of Christian faith permits no return to pagan naivete, and he knew that this monstrous inversion of values created within us a conscience that the older order could never have incubated. He understood also that the death of God beyond us is the death of the human as such within us. If we are, after all, nothing but the fortuitous effects of physical causes, then the will is bound to no rational measure but itself, and who can imagine what sort of world will spring up from so unprecedented and so vertiginously uncertain a vision of reality?

For Nietzsche, therefore, the future that lies before us must be decided, and decided between only two possible paths: a final nihilism, which aspires to nothing beyond the momentary consolations of material contentment, or some great feat of creative will, inspired by a new and truly worldly mythos powerful enough to replace the old and discredited mythos of the Christian revolution (for him, of course, this meant the myth of the Übermensch).

Perhaps; perhaps not. Where Nietzsche was almost certainly correct, however, was in recognizing that mere formal atheism was not yet the same thing as true unbelief. As he writes in The Gay Science, “Once the Buddha was dead, people displayed his shadow for centuries afterwards in a cave, an immense and dreadful shadow. God is dead: —but as the human race is constituted, there will perhaps be caves for millennia yet where people will display his shadow. And we—we have yet to overcome his shadow!” It may appear that Nietzsche is here referring to “persons of faith”—those poor souls who continue to make their placid, bovine trek to church every week to worship a God who passed away long ago—but that is not his meaning.

He is referring principally to those who think they have eluded God simply by ceasing to believe in his existence. For Nietzsche, “scientism”—the belief that the modern scientific method is the only avenue of truth, one capable of providing moral truth or moral meaning—is the worst dogmatism yet, and the most pathetic of all metaphysical nostalgias. And it is, in his view, precisely men like the New Atheists, clinging as they do to those tenuous vestiges of Christian morality that they have absurdly denominated “humanism,” who shelter themselves in caves and venerate shadows. As they do not understand the past, or the nature of the spiritual revolution that has come and now gone for Western humanity, so they cannot begin to understand the peril of the future.

If I were to choose from among the New Atheists a single figure who to my mind epitomizes the spiritual chasm that separates Nietzsche’s unbelief from theirs, I think it would be the philosopher and essayist A.C. Grayling. For a short time I entertained the misguided hope that he might produce an atheist manifesto somewhat richer than the others currently on offer. Unfortunately, all his efforts in that direction suffer from the same defects as those of his fellows: the historical errors, the sententious moralism, the glib sophistry. Their great virtue, however, is that they are mercifully short. One essay of his in particular, called “Religion and Reason,” can be read in a matter of minutes and provides an almost perfect distillation of the whole New Atheist project.

The essay is even, at least momentarily, interesting. Couched at one juncture among its various arguments (all of which are pretty poor), there is something resembling a cogent point. Among the defenses of Christianity an apologist might adduce, says Grayling, would be a purely aesthetic cultural argument: But for Christianity, there would be no Renaissance art—no Annunciations or Madonnas—and would we not all be much the poorer if that were so? But, in fact, no, counters Grayling; we might rather profit from a far greater number of canvasses devoted to the lovely mythical themes of classical antiquity, and only a macabre sensibility could fail to see that “an Aphrodite emerging from the Paphian foam is an infinitely more life-enhancing image than a Deposition from the Cross.” Here Grayling almost achieves a Nietzschean moment of moral clarity.

Ignoring that leaden and almost perfectly ductile phrase “life-enhancing,” I, too—red of blood and rude of health—would have to say I generally prefer the sight of nubile beauty to that of a murdered man’s shattered corpse. The question of whether Grayling might be accused of a certain deficiency of tragic sense can be deferred here. But perhaps he would have done well, in choosing this comparison, to have reflected on the sheer strangeness, and the significance, of the historical and cultural changes that made it possible in the first place for the death of a common man at the hands of a duly appointed legal authority to become the captivating center of an entire civilization’s moral and aesthetic contemplations—and for the deaths of all common men and women perhaps to be invested thereby with a gravity that the ancient order would never have accorded them.

Here, displayed with an altogether elegant incomprehensibility in Grayling’s casual juxtaposition of the sea-born goddess and the crucified God (who is a crucified man), one catches a glimpse of the enigma of the Christian event, which Nietzsche understood and Grayling does not: the lightning bolt that broke from the cloudless sky of pagan antiquity, the long revolution that overturned the hierarchies of heaven and earth alike. One does not have to believe any of it, of course—the Christian story, its moral claims, its metaphysical systems, and so forth. But anyone who chooses to lament that event should also be willing, first, to see this image of the God-man, broken at the foot of the cross, for what it is, in the full mystery of its historical contingency, spiritual pathos, and moral novelty: that tender agony of the soul that finds the glory of God in the most abject and defeated of human forms. Only if one has succeeded in doing this can it be of any significance if one still, then, elects to turn away.

David Hart’s most recent book is Atheist Delusions: The Christian Revolution and Its Fashionable Enemies.

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Comments:

4.20.2010 | 9:32am
Ars Artium says:
Any comment I could make about the content of this essay would necessarily be banal (one does not want to join the ranks of Daniel Dennett, et al). I can only acknowledge that the intellectual and spiritual power of David Hart steadies one's spine, so to speak, for the terrible things that already exist and may lie ahead. This essay provides hope. There are still men of faith, courage, and good will on earth. Can they prevail?

4.20.2010 | 9:57am
claudio says:
Reading this essay, it came to my mind something I read a few days ago. It was a vegetarian's compalin: We vegetarians do not love vegetables. We simply do not eat meat.

4.20.2010 | 2:45pm
John says:
Excellent!!!!!!!!!!!

4.20.2010 | 3:22pm
GeronimoRumplestiltskin says:
The scientists fare almost as poorly. Among these, Victor Stenger is the most recklessly self-confident, but his inability to differentiate the physical distinction between something and nothing (in the sense of “not anything as such”) from the logical distinction between existence and nonexistence renders his argument empty.

I must admit, I don't know the difference between "the physical distinction between something and nothing (in the sense of “not anything as such”) from the logical distinction between existence and nonexistence" either.

Luckily for me such inability was no hindrance to me a few years ago in disposing of Dr. Stenger's argument about how something was created from nothing, as his "nothing" is never actually nothing, but a state occurring in a physical system:

"...many simple systems of particles are unstable, that is, have limited lifetimes as they undergo spontaneous phase transitions to more complex structures of lower energy. Since "nothing" is as simple as it gets, we would not expect it to be very stable. This is consistent with the estimate given above that a universe is about twice as likely to be found in the physical state than the unphysical state we are identifying with nothing. The unphysical state undergoes a spontaneous phase transition to something more complicated, like a universe containing matter. The transition nothing-to-something is a natural one, not requiring any agent.....The fact that we have something is
just what we would expect if there is no God."

OK. But "Nothing" can only be "unstable" if it exists within a system of particles capable of "undergo[ing] spontaneous phase transitions". So this nothing is not really nothing, but particles in an unphysical state (as energy?). So where did these particles in an unphysical state come from, and how did they get into that state? Stenger's answer is either a previous universe (i.e. not nothing) or what amounts to "that's the way it was at time=0", which avoids answering either question. A better closing line for him would have been "The fact that I'm claiming this argument as proof there is no God is just what we would expect if I am allowed to assume a state of an existing system as 'nothing'".

Still, I'd be grateful if someone could explain to me the difference between "the physical distinction between something and nothing (in the sense of “not anything as such”) from the logical distinction between existence and nonexistence".

GR

4.20.2010 | 7:09pm
Sean says:
Good article, and I'm glad to see someone finally address Hitchens, but this is treading ground Hart's already covered in other articles - as well as his book, which was great. I've also noticed that Hart's prose has gotten a bit less purple with practice, and that's a good thing. Can't wait to see what his next project is.

4.20.2010 | 10:21pm
supply dental zirconia says:
Good article.surely,some show is not explain with the science.

4.21.2010 | 12:00am
Pastor Mack says:
I always enjoy reading Hart; the effort is well worth the benefit. I don't know of anyone doing a better job of exposing the sheer absurdity of the new atheists. Thank you!

4.21.2010 | 12:41am
Sean says:
I sure wouldn't mind having a recommended syllabus of books for understanding logic, how to think clearly and properly, and the arguments Dr. Hart brings up in his articles. Would Dr. Hart or someone mind providing a small list of said books?

4.21.2010 | 12:11pm
Rod Smith says:
Excellent article. I really enjoyed reading it. Someone needs to put all of this in normal language and publish a witty pop-culture refutation of the New Atheists for the bookshelves at Costco.

4.21.2010 | 12:47pm
Matt Beck says:
Geronimo,

The physical distinction between something and nothing (in the sense of "not anything as such") differs from the metaphysical distinction between existence and nonexistence in the following, familiar way. It is only Hart's erudition, otherwise so lovely, that obscures a point which everyone, except apparently the New Atheists, already implictly understands.

If I open up the refrigerator door and exclaim, "Hey, there's no beer in the fridge!" I am making the purely physical claim that there is not anything such as beer in the refrigerator. The statement can be understood entirely in physical terms, as can other statements like "There is not anything such as tarragon in my omelette," "There is not anything such as an elephant in my garage," and so on. Examples could be multiplied endlessly. These statements seem to imply the modal claim that there *could* be an elephant in my garage, etc. Nothing we know about the world precludes the possibility; I am just making the matter-of-fact observation that, as it so happens, there is not.

The New Atheists are making a catagory mistake when they hold the statement "there is not anything such as God in the Universe" to be understood in the same sense as the examples given above, viz. a physical object (God) in a physical location (the Universe). We'll get back to that in minute; but first let's examine the metphysical distinction between existence and nonexistence.

There is quite a lot of fine-grained philosophy that could be articulated here, but roughly speaking, to say in the metaphysical mood that "something exists" is just to say that that something is an *ens per se,* a necessary truth. The existence of these necessary truths is entailed by the fact of existence itself (which nobody can dispute). Since all physical beings are contingent, necessary truths can never be physical beings. So there is no sense in which any particular physical state of affairs implies anything about the existence or nonexistence of God.

When a New Atheist conceives of God as a physical being occupying the physical universe, and then goes on to declare that since there is "not any such thing" (physical mood) as this God, then "God does not exist" (metaphysical mood), he is simply making a catagory mistake that no philosopher with even a modicum of respectability is entitled to make. This is just plain sophistry, as Hart rightly points out.

4.21.2010 | 3:39pm
Dan says:
What a fantastic article I have never read the 'New Atheist' movement exposed as the puff of smoke that it is so well before. I agree with Rod Smith there is a book shaped hole (nee vacuum) on popular bookshelves rebutting their moronic arguments. We are still left with a God sized Elephant in the room after Nietzche and no amount of petulent adolescent arguments is going turn it into some nice Ivory piano keys.
The enlightenment is dead and the atheists have killed it.
Peace
Dan

4.21.2010 | 4:13pm
Ed says:
I’m an atheist. I’ve been an atheist all my life. I think it is very unlikely that there are any Gods, because no person knows of the existence of any Gods or of any things remotely similar to Gods. Similarly, I think it very unlikely that any astronomical objects exist that are at least as large as earth and made entirely of 18 carat gold.

4.21.2010 | 5:51pm
Remir says:
"Excellent article. I really enjoyed reading it. Someone needs to put all of this in normal language and publish a witty pop-culture refutation of the New Atheists for the bookshelves at Costco."

The Irrational Atheist fits that bill.

4.21.2010 | 6:46pm
Bob says:
Lets just hope that atheists pop culture doesn't become as murderous as it once did during the French revolution before it goes the way of pet rocks.

4.21.2010 | 7:45pm
danny says:
am i the only one who feels Hart is doing exactly what he accuses the "new atheists" of doing - talking a lot but saying a little? don't be thrown by his extensive vocabulary and "erudition" - he makes no arguments of substance. granted i am willing to buy that quite possibly neither do the people he attacks in his article, but come on, does it get any more hypocritical? how about addressing the point that after kant, all arguments based on speculative reasoning for the existence of god should not be part of any serious discussion? i do however agree with him that the seriousness of any participant in such discussions is inversely proportional to their degree of certainty in the matter.

4.22.2010 | 12:22am
G. Kyle Essary says:
Excellent writing as always. The recent "Rise of Atheism" conference in Austrailia was the nail in the coffin in my belief that this "movement" is only another marketed fad, no more influential to society at large, or to the realm of ideas than the late-1980s "seeker friendly" church movement. David Hart has thankfully put my thoughts into words beyond my capabilities with such a fine essay.

4.22.2010 | 2:12am
G. Kyle Essary says:
Geronimo and Matt,
It should also be noted that NA types are unable to differentiate between a metaphysical demonstration and a scientific truth.

I would also add that the danger for Stenger in realizing such a distinction is that it utterly undercuts his entire worldview, for he is not only an atheist, but a materialist in the strict sense. The existence of necessary truths which do not have a physical existence, yet exist nonetheless undercuts his position. These necessary truths cannot have arisen from within the system, are not a social construct or even properties inherent in the system itself.

They transcend the natural, and for a consistent naturalist they must be denied. Therefore, a person in Stenger's worldview is forced to accept the seemingly absurd position that there exists an infinite chain of contingency. Such a position is the height of irrationality, is it not? This is the danger for the philosopher who moves beyond discussing the nature of beings to the nature of being itself.

For those interested in further comments on these questions, I would highly recommend Edward Feser's new introduction to Aquinas.

4.22.2010 | 4:13am
Dimmitri says:
"Ed says: I’m an atheist. I’ve been an atheist all my life. I think it is very unlikely that there are any Gods, because no person knows of the existence of any Gods or of any things remotely similar to Gods. Similarly, I think it very unlikely that any astronomical objects exist that are at least as large as earth and made entirely of 18 carat gold.".

I am unsure if you know, but your post is completely left of center field to this article. And, I am also wondering if you're a troll, or if you were being intellectually honest in your approach. Because...I mean, come on... I don't even know what to say after reading that...

4.22.2010 | 6:17am
Jason says:
I'm reading through an essay by William of Ockham now. Some kind person took excerpts from his Summa of Logic and put it on the internet.

The Internet Archive has a lot of old books scanned out in PDF format, all ready to download and read.

Read your Aquinas and learn what a proper education in logic produced. A philosopher friend of mine explained how Russell's achievements in logic in the twentieth century really just recovered the basic logic that had been taught to freshmen in medieval universities.

4.22.2010 | 8:10am
JT says:
I think it's interesting that some are praising this as just a refutation of the New Atheists. It is that, sure, but it's very much more than that, and I share the lament it has.

It's easy to turn away from something you are completely willfully ignorant of. In a way, it could be more tragic than turning away from something you understand, even understand fully in all its dimensions. It would be easier on the conscience of those watching their attempts if they could actually produce something worthy of trading the Christian order of understanding morality and ethics with, but they don't even try. They expect people to follow a declaration of "follow us into a bright new world of high-technology where science frees us from all misery, pain, and together we can defeat death with our brilliant new revelations in discovery." And not one of them answers a single question about the nature of man, or of history, and nor will they accept any evidence contrary to some vision that mankinds own inventions will set him on the escape path from his nature.

Anyway...fine piece. Great end. I sat through and intently ran my fingers over my facial hair over some of the more complex parts to figure out what you were trying to say ("It is not logically requisite for anyone, on observing that contingent reality must depend on absolute reality, to say then what the absolute depends on or, on asserting the participation of finite beings in infinite being, further to explain what it is that makes being to be" I was snickering at that, made me go cross-eyed the first time I read it.) What makes us be or what makes God be, self-existence, eternal existence, some spirit in us that gives us an additional level of understanding that makes us aware of ourselves, yes yes, the fact that we as creatures don't have to live our lives by that additional life is what leads to the contradictions, but it also leaves us with the contrast, among other things, like tragedy. What you might be saying at the end there is that Nietzsche was the only atheist that was fully (or limitedly, if you want to argue) self-aware of his atheism. It is something astounding to witness, the use of that higher faculty to go against the very thing that allows for it. But, I don't want to romanticize it, but I can also see the contrast between him and the children of his philosophy, and it does speak volumes...only it's though the suspiration of onlookers not the actors--the New Atheist--commanding the stage.

You do wonder if that mad german would find anything he liked about his progeny taking up his mantle or if he was actually set at odds against everything in reality...if he realized his own thoughts could not go outside of an already established determinism found in everything. What a sickness it is to be against the own way in which you form thoughs...the degree of self-loathing it would take. He seems even more like an unnatural creature...but it's something so hideous that you can't take your eyes off it; it's mesmerising. I didn't think there was much use for the word "monster" outside of myths and movies before now but looking at Nietzsche again in that light makes for something simultanously beautiful and grotesquely deformed in his nature. I'm almost scared to be alive now knowing that such a person existed.

4.22.2010 | 10:38am
Thomas says:
This article doesn't seem to provide any arguments, just rejection of (the lack of) other arguments. This means we have to fall back to other sources, but there are none. Every argument offered in favor of theism is ultimately deistic, offering no support for religion in general or any specific religion. There is no need to disprove of them, they disprove of each other in their struggle to be the one true path.

4.22.2010 | 10:41am
Carol says:
One has to wonder at the ponderous weight of this writer's ego to simply assumes all books must be written for him as audience. His entire rant is easily reducible to "I don't like your dress, your mother dressed better than you do, but she was ugly!" - a statement which is specious at best, and if we listen, we can hear him stamp his pretty little foot, too!

4.22.2010 | 11:15am
Jaakko Wallenius says:
Ah, behold the fear atheism now strikes at hearts of some men. That fear is so big that it makes grown, intelligent men write like David B. Hart does here.
He so badly wants atheism to go away that he really seemingly really believes his own unsubstantiated babble about atheism being only a fad.
He has of course nothing else to back up his claims, but his childish belief in the superiority of his own belief-system.
Only a man with a profound belief also in his personal superiority can dismiss the ideas of 50 intelligent people in a single grand stoke as unsubstantiated and shallow.
They are of course unsubstantiated and shallow just because he has so decided; there needs to be nothing more to back even these claims up, as his belief-system just is superior to any other and thats it.

4.22.2010 | 11:30am
Jack says:
If Nietzsche were alive he would scorn you for the absurd interpretation of his "God is Dead" quote.

I could attack the tone of this article but I don't need to. All I want to point out is that this article provides no positive evidence for the existence of God.

4.22.2010 | 11:39am
Fred Edwords says:
David B. Hart rightfully explains that modern theology is a far more sophisticated thing than the strawman theism that the New Atheists refute. But what he fails to mention is the fact that millions of ordinary believers in the Abrahamic religions accept just such a strawman god. Their faith doesn't rise to the philosophic and aesthetic heights of the Christianity he speaks of.

Many American Christians, for example, know little or nothing of the tragic--except during a natural disaster or when something goes terribly wrong deep in the mines. And they have little or nothing to offer toward the elevation of the disenfranchised in society. Indeed, many support wealth, power, military adventurism, and the majority will. They see their faith as little more than sports psychology, the path to wealth and prosperity, a way to protect the "traditional family" and the free enterprise system, and a defense of legalistic "moral absolutes" over the feared encroachments of situation ethics, postmodernism, skepticism, and doubt. Theirs is a faith reinforced by the Creation Museum, televangelists, prayer rallies, the Tea Party movement, a church car wash, and banners at sporting events.

But do not dare dismiss them for all that. They are a cultural, social, and political force to be reckoned with--as they continue to remind us with each day's news cycle.

Is it therefore so very inappropriate that some atheists would take the time to tackle pop faith with pop freethought? In so doing are they not providing a public service?

But let's move away from the pit of American "culture war" mud wrestling to the cloistered heights of serious philosophical, theological, and spiritual pursuits. In this realm, why does Hart limit his discussion of faith issues to western religion? Granted, the New Atheists he criticizes tend, themselves, to have a Western and Christian focus. But he wants to broaden our outlook, does he not? Why then does he neglect other avenues of pursuit?

Specifically, since Hart wishes us to grant that Christianity transformed the West in a way that can't be retracted, should he not equally acknowledge that Buddhism transformed the East? Is Christianity the only faith we are to take seriously? Are the consequences of Christianity's demise the only ones to worry about? What void will be left if Buddhism dies? What did the diminishing of Confucian influence do to modern China and, thus, how will the rise of the new China impact the world?

God, of course, doesn't figure in most Buddhist and Confucian thought. Therefore, many thinkers who have been schooled in traditional Western theology and logic don't quite know what to do with these "other" ideas that have dominated the culture of half the world. Such Eastern thinking "does not compute" and so is often dismissed, forgotten, or simply left unmentioned.

But if we are to grant that the New Atheists have been less than thorough and far from deep, we would do well to recognize when their critics have expressed a narrowness and shallowness of their own.

4.22.2010 | 11:56am
MarkOnTheRiver says:
What a crock of fatuous rubbish this article is. To all you christian apologetics out there, starting with David B Hart, if you can't read his sentence relating to the essay by Adèle Mercier that includes;

. . . it soon collapses under the weight of its own baseless presuppositions.

without seeing the total irony, of your own creed's unsupported, baseless presuppositions, then you probably think Benedict XVI™ makes a pretty good Pope™.

4.22.2010 | 11:59am
Chris says:
"We can all happily concede that no complex, ubiquitous, omniscient, and omnipotent superbeing, inhabiting the physical cosmos and subject to the rules of evolution, exists."

I laughed out loud when I got to this part. David could have just left out the "subject to the rules of evolution" and we wouldn't have had to waste our time reading this silly article.

Either the author is seriously putting forward this ridiculous criticism of contemporary atheism, or this is a big joke. Poe's Law is very much in the balance here:

http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Poe's_Law

4.22.2010 | 12:08pm
Wainscot Britton says:
But yet this article in all it's profound eloquence fails to answer this:

Is charity good becuase god likes it
or does god like charity because it is good.

Common, go for it!...I dare you.

4.22.2010 | 12:25pm
Cory says:
Weak logic that may displayed notwithstanding, I find it hard to understand how Hart could so thoroughly misread that the core concept underpinning the New Atheist movement is empiricism. Erudite analysis of what is the most philosophically sound conclusion about contingent reality's nature and origin do nothing, absolutely nothing to support the claims of religion. Was Jesus Christ a literal manifestation of God, born to a virgin mother? I doubt it, and nothing I read above makes me believe its anymore likely. Do I have a metaphysical soul which ascends to a heavenly paradise depending on how I conducted my mortal affairs, as judged by an opinionated deity? Again, not likely. The primal question of the nature of reality is a thorny one. Important and worth pursuing, yes, but the extant realities religions claim as following from the truths they hold are highly unlikely at best, demonstrably false and dangerous to those that believe them at worst. When people ignore empirical evidence about the age of the earth because the doctrine of their faith tells them to, its a serious problem. Confused as the message might sometimes be, thats what the authors Hart critiques are seeking to redress. Not his (Hart's) personal ontological beliefs.

4.22.2010 | 12:41pm
severalspeciesof says:
For all the 'These are bad arguments for the non-existence of God' that Hart says the New Atheist produces, I don't know what Hart's god IS...

That's important...

Right?

4.22.2010 | 12:43pm
Jack Rawlinson says:
Sifting through this absurdly and unnecessarily prolix exercise in empty sneering, I note that nowhere is a single respectable argument advanced for the actual existence of anything that might fairly and reasonably be considered a deity. That's right: I am not impressed by warmed-over and over-garnished trottings-out of Aquinas's laughable and totally-debunked "arguments." Necessary existence? Prime mover? Grow up.

Here's a key point you people need to get through your skulls: as atheists, we do not have to prove one goddamned thing. We are adopting the rational, null position towards the many and various claims made for the existence of a deity. These include the laughable "sky-fairy" type which, much to the chagrin of the smug, modern western apologist, is still widely believed by billions of people throughout the world. They also include the woolly, sneaky, deliberately evasive, shape-shifter "god" of the modern "moderate" believer. It is interesting to note that when we coarse, unsophisticated "new" atheists try to pin such gutless wafflers down to actual definitions, they run squealing from precision and clarity like the intellectual cissies they are. And we conclude what it is reasonable to conclude from that: they have nothing.

4.22.2010 | 12:57pm
Steve Zara says:
Theism: A young child puts their hand behind their back and asks "what am I holding" and whatever you answer, they say "no, it's not that!"

Atheism: Not believing until you see what, if anything, is in the hand.

Hart's atheism: Having to spending a lifetime studying the possibilities of what such children might be holding, and then regretfully insisting that the world needs to free of children playing games, and should be scolded when they try.

4.22.2010 | 12:58pm
EternalSkeptic says:
This will of course, not be allowed on your comment board, but
the air of self congratulation from and for this exercise in argumentum ad verbosium and the bayonetting of straw men is receiving it's just due RichardDawkins.net,

and it isn't pretty.

4.22.2010 | 1:11pm
Fred says:
Wainscott Britton, The answer is "yes."

4.22.2010 | 1:16pm
CPE Gaebler says:
I'm rolling on the floor here at the wealth of comments that whine "But this article doesn't prove God exists!!" Do you really think an article on the shallowness and lack of rigor of one group should be expected to prove the views of another? It's thoroughly irrelevant to the purposes of this article.

I might just as well ignore your comments because you haven't offered a logical argument for a materialist metaphysic.

4.22.2010 | 1:25pm
Ed says:
Dimmitri wrote: "I am unsure if you know, but your post is completely left of center field to this article. And, I am also wondering if you're a troll, or if you were being intellectually honest in your approach. Because...I mean, come on... I don't even know what to say after reading that..."

Dimmitri, is there anything I wrote that you disagree with? If so, what? And why?

In his essay, David Hart suggested that he hasn't seen any arguments that no Gods exist by "New Atheists" in which the conclusion follows from the premises. I'm not sure I'm a "New Atheist." I've been an atheist all my life. But I am an atheist. Moreover, in my post I argued that it is very likely that no Gods exist.

4.22.2010 | 1:32pm
Jack Rawlinson says:
CPE Gaebler writes: "I'm rolling on the floor here at the wealth of comments that whine "But this article doesn't prove God exists!!" "

How coolly rational of you.

Again: Logic 101. The burden of proof lies with the proponent of a belief. Try - no really, make a serious effort - to get that into your understanding. Then try to understand that we're not even asking you to prove a god exists. We're saying you haven't even managed to define one yet. And we know exactly why you are so reluctant to do so. And vacuous, pompous blustering like this article does not fool us for one second. Not. One. Second. We're onto you.

4.22.2010 | 1:35pm
AndrewR says:
All this tedious philosophizing is based on the assumption that a particular christian god exists and that somehow humans know what he(sic) wants us to do. Christianity,(and all religions) are great castles in the air constructed on a foundation of nothing.
There's no compelling evidence to suggest that anybodies favorite god exists.
If Mr Hart believes that you cant reject christian faith without a thorough understanding of all the tortuous "tradition metaphysics" used to justify its belief, perhaps he like to explain how he's come to not beleive in all the other religions.

4.22.2010 | 1:36pm
Eric MacDonald says:
What a disturbing piece of intellectual foppery! For someone who criticises the quality of argument in the writings of the New Atheists, this diatribe - for that is what it is - contains incredibly little, if any, argument at all - an astonishing display of rude confidence in the power of declarative pronouncement. At one point he offers an analogy to the regress argument, but calls it a feeble one - which it is. If Hart is going imperiously, and with an surprising fund of insulting and belittling language, to condemn others for their arguments, he must at least provide one or two!

As to the argument from contingency to transcendence, despite centuries of trying, this argument is no more convincing now than it ever was. No single contingent being can be the ground of it's own existence, that's true, but it does not follow, as Hart claims, that "contingent being must depend on absolute reality," for he has not given any meaning to the words 'absolute reality' here (unless it just means 'whatever grounds contingent reality'). What do they mean? And does the use of those words provide any sort of explanation? As Dennett points out, there isn't much traction left in this sort of argument, so better to forswear it all together.

However, to take Nietzsche as the paradigm of profundity, because Nietzsche did not see that so-called 'Christian' values are not peculiarly Christian at all, and not, in themselves, very often, particularly enviable, just because, for Hart, Christianity introduced a revolution in human value, which must, with Christianity's rejection, lead to an enormous revaluation of all our values, is really quite silly. One can see this by taking as an example John Wycliffe, who, as Hart says, was not burned alive at the stake, despite Hitchen's claim that he was. (Unfortunately, Hart gives no page reference, and there is no reference in the Index of god is not Great to Wycliffe.) It is true that Wycliffe was not burned alive, though many heretics were; but it is also true that Wycliffe's body was exhumed, burt to ashes, and the ashes disposed of in the River Swift. The Council of Constance also condemned his books to the flames. These values, which are deeply embedded in any ideology that claims some kind of absolute ground, continue to inform the moralities of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc. We are better off without them. Nietzsche was wrong. Values are not created by the sheer expression of will, but by the effort to find ways in which we can live together most fully, without making any absolute claims, besides those that protect individuals from intervention from those who do claim to know absolutely, as Hart does.

Hart wants a place for Christianity in the world. It has a place all its own. Anyone may believe in the myths of the Christians if they wish to, and they may even imagine that values of benevolence and compassion depend upon the image of a crucified god-man. But no one is bound to share these beliefs, and there is no reason why the values that we hold should be dependent upon myths thousands of years old, based on stories which have no clear historical basis. If our values are that insecurely grounded, we are indeed in trouble.

4.22.2010 | 1:37pm
prettygoodformonkeys says:
CPE Gaebler: the burden of proof is on you lot. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and not having any is the reason you ignore comments.

4.22.2010 | 1:43pm
CPE Gaebler says:
And again. Why should you expect proof in THIS ARTICLE? This specific article is not about the existence or even definition of God, it is about the shallowness of the New Atheists. Why expect the author to cover a completely different topic in the same article?

Any hey! He still hints at it however. I'll redirect you to a paragraph you might have missed.

"Thus, abstracting from the universal conditions of contingency, one very well may (and perhaps must) conclude that all things are sustained in being by an absolute plenitude of actuality, whose very essence is being as such: not a “supreme being,” not another thing within or alongside the universe, but the infinite act of being itself, the one eternal and transcendent source of all existence and knowledge, in which all finite being participates."

There's at least part of your definition. Any more unrelated hurdles you'd like him to jump? Maybe disprove another religion or two while he's at it?

4.22.2010 | 1:52pm
Quine says:
Wake up, Mr. Hart! You are not living back in the day of Aquinas, now is well into the post Darwin. The old world was a mystery that seemed to run by divine magic. Then, it was the burden of any who challenged the gods to show otherwise. But now, the balance has flipped. We now know the natural history of the world and that people are a natural product of that history. That is why we need no longer try to disprove the supernatural; the weight is on you to prove it.

Got evidence?

4.22.2010 | 2:05pm
Alan Cairns says:
If Dr Hart needed any more proof that the followers of the New Atheism aren't particularly keen-witted, the remarks many of them have added to this thread would seem to prove the case. Most of them obviously did not get the point of the essay, all of them seem entirely to have missed the point about ontological contingency (over their heads, I guess, but pretty clear it seemed to me), and every one of them appears to imagine that Hart is making an argument he obviously is not. They all seem to want to argue with someone, but they clearly don't want to make the effort to think through what this article says.

Anyway, yes, it is true that the New Atheist movement is fatuous and silly, and it is sad that atheism today is not motivated by the deep reflection, philosophical sophistication, and profound erudition of the great atheists of yore. But that's how everything is now. This is the age of soundbites and reality TV. Why bother to lament what's incorrigible?

4.22.2010 | 2:09pm
severalspeciesof says:
CPE Gaebler says:

" ...There's at least part of your definition. Any more unrelated hurdles you'd like him to jump? Maybe disprove another religion or two while he's at it?..."

Well, Mr Hurt apparently expects the truly profound atheist to:

"A truly profound atheist is someone who has taken the trouble to understand, in its most sophisticated forms, the belief he or she rejects, and to understand the consequences of that rejection.

4.22.2010 | 2:17pm
Steve Zara says:
CPE Gaebler:

The arguments of the New Atheists are hardly shallow. They are simple, and elegant, and based on the fact that the world has moved on in the past few centuries. Materialism isn't an axiom of the New Atheists, it is a conclusion based on the astonishing explanatory successes of science and reason, which has predictive power and usefulness. A well-educated youngster today will have very little room indeed for deities in their explanation of the world around them.

Our views of what gods are keeps changing. In the past, gods were personalities living here, on Earth, who were magical and responsible for natural phenomena. They lived just over those mountains, where the tribe had never wandered in their hunting journeys. But then we looked, and those gods were not there. Then the gods were raised up to the peaks of the mountains. They lived in Olympus and other luxury elevated apartments. They worked miracles, even wandering down to visit mortals and showing them the delights of randy swans and golden showers. But the stories were always of a friend of a friend, and when we climbed to the top of the mountains, we saw no gods. So, the gods were raised further into the skies. That refuge for the supernatural was destroyed when Galileo looked through a telescope and saw the moons of Jupiter, and Newton showed that the behaviour of heavenly bodies was neither heavenly nor magical. Then, miraculously, under the stare of the telescope, heaven disappeared. It became not a place in the physical world, but another domain, until today God has to try and desperately fiddle below the level of the quantum to try and get anything done.

The nature of what God could possibly be has also changed. Our understanding of the human mind grows daily. We have fortunately started to pass the sad stage of seeing how disease and damage to the brain change not just how people think, but who and what they are. Now we can experiment non-intrusively with magnetic fields and we can watch tiny parts of neural networks operate with electrodes. Religious experience and adult moral judgment can be turned on and off at the flick of a switch. Not only do we see no minds that aren't based on physical substrates, but we are learning how minds arise from those substrates. In the forseable future we will know why physical substrates process information that lead to what we call "belief in mind", and then the story of dualism is ended. As is the idea of a supernatural mind. When mind is recognised as software, and recognises itself as software, the question to be asked is where and on what is that software running? The Creator's mind will require an awful lot of fatty tissue or carefully designed silicon. Without that foundation, without that mind, God becomes nothing more than some vague creative essence. Nothing that can love, or protect, or administer heaven, or forgive sins; nothing that is the foundation of any mainstream theistic religion.

So, over the millenia, gods have changed beyond the furthest imaginings of the earliest believers, to the point where the term has little meaning, other than some sort of vampiric spirit, who can't stand exposure to the light of reason and so struggles desperately to hide in the gaps of ignorance, cowering behind question marks, or wandering within word-games about transcendence and actuality, games that have no connection to reality without empirical validation.

There should be a limit to our patience. We don't have to search within each sand grain on rocks around every star, we don't need to dissect every theological statement before we can finally say that there isn't a god. to see if they fall apart. There really isn't.

4.22.2010 | 2:17pm
Jack Rawlinson says:
CPE Gaebler: "And again. Why should you expect proof in THIS ARTICLE? This specific article is not about the existence or even definition of God, it is about the shallowness of the New Atheists. "

But that simply isn't true, and can be seen not to be true. The article is about more than that, and you go on to illustrate that very fact by quoting an example. You yourself show that the article is not merely an absurdly lengthy and flaccid attempt to insult atheists; it also tries to provide justifications for belief in God - or at least to sling out a few poorly-reworded, ancient and long-since debunked examples of such justifications.

As I previously observed (and as your quoted example further illustrates), reheated Aquinas is not going to impress any modern atheist. You may delude yourself by pretending that that is because we lack intellectual rigour or a firm grounding in philosophy, but I regret to inform you that not only is that false, you're also going to have to feel the same way about many, many seriously respectable philosophers. Aquinas's ideas about contingency, necessity and uncaused causes - and the many attempts to repackage them since - are debunked, over, finished with, and no serious philosopher thinks otherwise.

Attempts to make this hoary old nonsense sound pretty by using such comical, meaning-challenged, sophistical smoke-screening as "absolute plenitude of actuality" merely serve to make the writer look like the sort of intellectually dishonest charlatan who is more concerned with sowing confusion and imprecision than pursuing truth. And that is the modern religious apologist in a nutshell.

Once again, we are not impressed and we most certainly are not fooled by these pseudo-intellectual shenanigans. Make no mistake: we are onto you people, and we will not be cowed or misdirected by desperate, hand-waving attempts to divert readers from the key issue - does a deity exist or not? We will most assuredly not be diverted by extended exercises in snide, inadequately-supported derision such as this insolent and intellectually void article.

4.22.2010 | 2:28pm
severalspeciesof says:
Sorry,

This is better...

CPE Gaebler says:

" ...There's at least part of your definition. Any more unrelated hurdles you'd like him to jump? Maybe disprove another religion or two while he's at it?..."

Well, Mr Hurt apparently expects the truly profound atheist to do the same:

"A truly profound atheist is someone who has taken the trouble to understand, in its most sophisticated forms, the belief he or she rejects, and to understand the consequences of that rejection."

Why the double standard?

4.22.2010 | 2:30pm
Eric MacDonald says:
@Alan Cairns

So, we are ontologically contingent. So what? What follows from the fact that we might have been otherwise, or might not have been at all? Nothing. Certainly not that there is some intelligent ground for our being. Nor would referring to such a ground explain anything, because there is no reason to suppose that the ground of existence is intelligent. There is no reason, as Hart himself points out, why this should not be the universe itself, understood as absolute, whatever that means, aside from grounding contingency. You can't get profundity this way.

As to Hart's other claim, that none of the so-called New Atheists seem to have any sense of the tragic dimension of life, arguments against religion are scarcely where this will be found. But this profound dimension of the tragic and of the complexity and depth of human conscience and self-critical awareness does not depend on belief in god or gods. Read some Tzvetan Todorov or Vassily Grossman, or even some of the essays of AC Grayling, and the subtlety and profundity of regligionless human awareness will be abundantly evident. Hart is looking in the wrong place, and on that basis proposing that contemporary atheism is simply empty. But surely, nothing can be quite so empty as the disparaging hubris of Hart himself, lacking in both self-critical awareness and human depth.

4.22.2010 | 2:33pm
prettygoodformonkeys says:
Alan Cairns says: the New Atheist movement is fatuous and silly.

There is no New Atheist movement. It is simply that the gradually accumulated knowledge of the world around us has reached a certain critical mass, and some have noticed how far-reaching are its implications. Meanwhile, others are still dragging the old anchors around behind them, crying "Too soon! Too soon!"
One of those rusty old anchors is called Ontological Contingency.

4.22.2010 | 2:41pm
Brad says:
@ Eric MacDonald

Nicely put.

4.22.2010 | 2:58pm
CPE Gaebler says:
severalspeciesof: I'm not sure what you mean by double standard. Could you clarify? What is an atheist being expected to do that a Christian is not? Keep in mind that this article is not an attack on atheism in its strongest form, so much as pointing out that a certain trend is atheism in its weakest form.

Jack Rawlinson: I would like to point out that that quote I posted is, in fact, a direct response to New Atheist arguments. It is entirely relevant to the topic of New Atheist shallowness to point out that not only is the New Atheist conception of "god" wholly different from that of Christian philosophy, but the New Atheists appear to be wholly incapable of even realizing this.

As for your claim about "no serious philosopher," I'd have to take a bit of convincing before I can be sure that you meant "philosopher" and not "Scotsman."

4.22.2010 | 3:26pm
Michael Bone says:
@Steve Zara

Brilliant distillation of the thought processes behind the New Atheism movement.

4.22.2010 | 3:27pm
Tyler Durden says:
Before disputing the existence of the Christian god, can we first acknowledge the non-existence of Zeus, Thor and Quetzacoatl?

4.22.2010 | 3:35pm
Steve Zara says:
G. Kyle Essary

You are attacking straw men. Forget about "consistent naturalist positions" and "transcendence". Those labels have little meaning.

There is only one question that needs to be asked of those who claim that something exists, and that is "show me". It matters not one bit if what is being claimed to exist has the label "natural", or "supernatural", or "material", or "transcendent". There is still always the requirement for demonstration, as you can't get to "exists" from words.

So, whatever you want to claim exists, or is true... evidence please!

4.22.2010 | 3:39pm
severalspeciesof says:
@CPE Gaebler,

The double standard is to Hart. He complains about a lack of deep understanding of what 'god' is, all the while not being very deep in his own analysis in his own god...

You even admit as much by saying that Hart 'hints' at a definition...

Here's more of that hint:

" ...The most venerable metaphysical claims about God do not simply shift priority from one kind of thing (say, a teacup or the universe) to another thing that just happens to be much bigger and come much earlier (some discrete, very large gentleman who preexists teacups and universes alike). These claims start, rather, from the fairly elementary observation that nothing contingent, composite, finite, temporal, complex, and mutable can account for its own existence, and that even an infinite series of such things can never be the source or ground of its own being, but must depend on some source of actuality beyond itself. Thus, abstracting from the universal conditions of contingency, one very well may (and perhaps must) conclude that all things are sustained in being by an absolute plenitude of actuality, whose very essence is being as such: not a “supreme being,” not another thing within or alongside the universe, but the infinite act of being itself, the one eternal and transcendent source of all existence and knowledge, in which all finite being participates.

It is immaterial whether one is wholly convinced by such reasoning. Even its most ardent proponents would have to acknowledge that it is an almost entirely negative deduction, obedient only to something like Sherlock Holmes’ maxim that “when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.” It certainly says nearly nothing about who or what God is.... "

That last sentence screams for more information and he calls it 'venerable', but Mr Hart doesn't give it, yet expects a lot more from atheists...

No one on the atheist side is screaming for a book length dissertation from Mr Hart here, just a coherent positive definition of god...

I've seen nothing here that fits that bill...

I hope this helps...

4.22.2010 | 3:42pm
Scott Scheule says:
As an atheist, even as an atheist, I enjoyed this review immensely. Bravo.

4.22.2010 | 3:44pm
Thomas says:
@CPE Gaebler
People don't believe in the god of Christian philosophy, they believe in an old man in the sky, a heaven existing in the material realm, and other absurdities. The god of Christian philosophy is the end product of trying to rationalize this until there's nothing left but a vague and meaningless something that isn't anything else. Sure, it is harder to argue against something with no specific qualities at all, but it also tells and teaches us nothing useful about the world. It is no longer a Christian god for any practical definition of Christianity.

4.22.2010 | 3:50pm
blitz442 says:
CPE Gaebler

"It is entirely relevant to the topic of New Atheist shallowness to point out that not only is the New Atheist conception of "god" wholly different from that of Christian philosophy, but the New Atheists appear to be wholly incapable of even realizing this."

The conception of God as described by Aquinas, for instance?

Aquinas was a man who wrote profundities like this:

"In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned...So that they may be urged the more to praise God...The saints in heaven know distinctly all that happens...to the damned."

How can this description of God, as a sadistic superbeing who presents the display of abject suffering as some demented present to his most obedient servants, be reconciled with the ineffable vapor that apparently is the "sophisticated" version of God?

Or am I crudely misinterpreting the complexities and subtleties of Aquinas' conception of God?

4.22.2010 | 3:56pm
Jack Rawlinson says:
CPE Gaebler.

I note, as, I'm sure, will other unbiased readers, that you have not addressed the crux of my rebuttal: that your previous depiction of this article was demonstrably incomplete. The article did more than attack atheists, it also attempted to give examples of arguments for God. The reasons for including those arguments are irrelevant to the point: the arguments were included, and thus your representation of the content of the article was incomplete. You misrepresented it for your own ends. But I am prepared to let that pass and move on to your latest remarks.

You now make a claim about "the New Atheist conception of god" being " wholly different from that of Christian philosophy"

I reject that assertion, utterly. The New Atheists make several attacks on several notions of God. It suits the purposes of the New Apologists to lie about this fact; to be dishonest (and, ironically, unchristian), and to pretend that this is not so. Certainly, we attack the more primitive and childish notions of God as a "Father", an intervening, prayer-hearing, all-judging "Sky Daddy". And, as I have already pointed out (and as you tellingly ignore) we are absolutely justified in doing so because belief in a God of this broad nature is still held by billions of people. The people dutifully abasing themselves and grovelling and praying in churches and mosques and synagogues and temples show it. The stats show it. 51% of British people believe in an afterlife. An embarrassingly large percentage of people believe in hell; that the world was created in accordance with the words of Genesis; that the earth is somewhere around 6000 - 10,000 years old; that evolution is false; that earthquakes, AIDS and natural disasters are caused (or exacerbated by) human "sin". And that is in the "developed west"! Where Islam is concerned, well... did you see the recent story that earthquakes are, apparently, caused by divine retribution for the behaviour of promiscuous women? What a very nuanced and sophisticated form of belief and accompanying deity that is, eh?

The plain truth - if you are even interested in that particular virtue - is that a simply monstrous number of human beings believe in a concept of God that is every bit as fatuous and immature as our "Sky Daddy" caricature. That, GPE, is observable and recorded fact and you and Hart would do well not to make fools of yourselves by seeking to downplay it.

Be sure of this: we fully understand why you people seek to play this truth down and frantically hand-wave it away, but you must understand that we will no longer allow you to do that. That is the only "new" thing about New Atheism. We have had enough of your nonsense and we will no longer stand for it. We are onto you people. We really are. We know exactly what you are about; we see constantly how devious, desperate and dishonest you are prepared to become in order to pursue your agenda and we are no longer prepared to let that shameful dishonesty pass unchallenged. We've had enough of you. Please be very, very sure of this. We will continue to attack that particularly infantile God because a version of it is, still, demonstrably, the one that disgraceful numbers of people believe in. Got it?

Now, I have also touched on certain other (non) definitions of god that people such as yourself and the impertinent Mr. Hart favour. I described them, with justification, as the "woolly, sneaky, deliberately evasive, shape-shifter "god" of the modern "moderate" believer. " I described them thus because - as we are seeing here - none of you people are willing to define the nature of these gods with lucidity or precision. Instead, you prefer to retreat behind the skirts of sophistry, ambiguity and - when under questioning or attack - shameless and relentless goalpost-shifting. You play pass-the-parcel with your shrinking, increasingly pitiful "God of the gaps".

Once again, please do not imagine for a moment that we are not fully aware of why you do this. Please do not delude yourself into believing that such intellectually craven and dishonest wriggling is impressive to anyone but those who, like you, need to maintain an irrational and unsupportable belief system. We see through you, and we will not retreat. We see you naked emperors, and we see how ridiculous you are, standing there stark naked with your sad, antiquated old arguments hanging off you like pot bellies and double chins. And we see how in spite of that, still you puff yourselves up and reassure yourselves with with blinkered pomposity and transparently self-serving flummeries. And we are going to make damned sure other people see it too.

"As for your claim about "no serious philosopher," I'd have to take a bit of convincing before I can be sure that you meant "philosopher" and not "Scotsman." "

It is more than clear to me that you, sir, would have to take a lot of convincing of anything that doesn't support your need to believe something that you cannot fairly defend intellectually.

4.22.2010 | 4:00pm
Ed says:
CPE Gaebler: "It is entirely relevant to the topic of New Atheist shallowness to point out that not only is the New Atheist conception of 'god' wholly different from that of Christian philosophy, but the New Atheists appear to be wholly incapable of even realizing this."

CPE Gaebler, what do you mean by "god?" And what reason is there to believe that the thing you mean by "god" exists?


According to David Hart, “The most venerable metaphysical claims about God do not simply shift priority from one kind of thing (say, a teacup or the universe) to another thing that just happens to be much bigger and come much earlier (some discrete, very large gentleman who preexists teacups and universes alike). These claims start, rather, from the fairly elementary observation that nothing contingent, composite, finite, temporal, complex, and mutable can account for its own existence, and that even an infinite series of such things can never be the source or ground of its own being, but must depend on some source of actuality beyond itself. Thus, abstracting from the universal conditions of contingency, one very well may (and perhaps must) conclude that all things are sustained in being by an absolute plenitude of actuality, whose very essence is being as such: not a 'supreme being,' not another thing within or alongside the universe, but the infinite act of being itself, the one eternal and transcendent source of all existence and knowledge, in which all finite being participates.”

In his second sentence, I don't know what Mr. Hart means by "account for its own existence." But there may well be things that exist (for instance, so-called virtual particles) whose existence was not caused -- at least not proximately caused -- by any event.

4.22.2010 | 4:00pm
Steve Zara says:
CPE Gaebler-

Yes, the views of one group should help disprove or prove the other, assuming that there is to be a rational debate about philosophical matters. The nature of truth and how we determine it is at the core of this discussion. Hart is attempting to denigrate those who won't accept the truth of the claims of theism with ancient and discredited theological arguments, with criticisms about style, and, with the insistence that religion should be somehow supported because basing our lives on unvalidated metaphysical claims somehow adds value to our existence.

That's nothing more than "belief in belief", the idea that we should live our lives drugged on belief, whether it is true or not.

If you won't agree to reasonable standards of proof for your statements, then we can dismiss them as irrelevant.

Sorry, but some of us don't have time to be anxious about our atheism, and fearful though our ability to live full and moral lives without faith may seem to others, that is their worry, not ours.

4.22.2010 | 4:03pm
MJB says:
Thank you for this article, I wasn't intending to buy "50 Voices of Disbelief", but seeing such a poorly written review I have changed my mind and have just placed an order for it on amazon
ISBN-10: 1405190469
ISBN-13: 978-1405190466
in case anyone is having difficulty finding it.

So again, thank you for helping me find another great book.

4.22.2010 | 4:03pm
Tyler Durden says:
"Simple probability, surely, would seem to dictate that a collection of essays by fifty fairly intelligent and zealous atheists would contain at least one logically compelling, deeply informed, morally profound, or conceptually arresting argument for not believing in God."

Because there's no actual evidence, and believing in something without evidence is childish, irrational and intellectually weak:

(If you sold houses, cars or plasma TVs for a living, would you blindly believe a new customer had the money to buy before handing over the merchandise, or would you ask for evidence? i.e. credit check)

If actual evidence for god(s) existed, it could be easily verified by science.
Science has yet verified no actual evidence.
Threrefore, god(s) probably do not exist.

How's that for a logically compelling, deeply informed, morally profound, and conceptually arresting argument for not believing in god(s)??

(Mr. Hart, I assume you read all fifty essays, yes?)

4.22.2010 | 4:22pm
Skepticon says:
David Hart's writing style is terrible. He writes like he's living in the 1800s. Once you sift through his flowery prose his arguements are basically just name calling.

4.22.2010 | 4:26pm
Dan Balmat says:
Wow. A flea, to be sure, but what a flea!

Kudos to Jack Rawlinson, but even “absurdly and unnecessarily prolix,” doesn’t do this article justice. Hart’s “arguments” are just one conclusory “wrong!” after another.

Although, to be fair, I suppose this is understandable - he does have 50 thinkers to dismiss, after all! “Let’s see, did I give a sentence to Michael Tooley? Check, that takes care of him! And there’s your mention, Laura Purdy! Take that!”

It can’t be overemphasized that nothing in this actually constitutes a cogent logical argument -- much less empirical evidence -- FOR the existence of a god. Sorry believers, but this is the first task, and it’s yours. Steve Zara's response to the theists “challenge” is the best I’ve ever seen (partly by virtue of being the most concise). Read it again. Until one of you advances a positive argument for your positive claims, we atheists are justified in assuming there is no god for the same reasons we assume there are no unicorns. Simple as that. How about it, believers, any of you willing to give it a shot?

Anticipating the crickets, my summary of this “piece” echoes those of other posters:

Well-written but meaningless pejorative, without substance or analysis. Courtier’s Reply. Well-written but meaningless pejorative. No True Scotsman. Unsophisticated Atheist, aka, “You’re no Nietzsche!” Strawman. Strawman. Argument from Ignorance mixed with a little Pot-Kettle-Black. Well written but meaningless pejorative. And, in conclusion, Poe’s Law?

There, are we done? Next flea, please!

4.22.2010 | 4:36pm
robzrob says:
This is just one more example of one of the Arts/Humanities lot having a tantrum at seeing himself being superseded by scientists. They don't like it.

See also: Melanie Phillips, A N Wilson, Christopher Monckton...

4.22.2010 | 4:37pm
prettygoodformonkeys says:
@ Skepticon: exactly. A friend of mine once said of a mutual friend (now a physician, then a fervent student) "She mistakes seriousness for intelligence".

4.22.2010 | 4:47pm
robzrob says:
'In the best kinds of unbelief, there is something of the moral grandeur of the prophets—a deep and admirable abhorrence of those vicious idolatries that enslave minds and justify our worst cruelties.'

If you want that, read Sam Harris's The End Of Faith.

4.22.2010 | 4:49pm
Frederick Greer says:
Gosh what a lot of silly half-educated whining self-congratulatory dolts these New Atheists are. It's not just the lousy arguments coming from Mr. Zara and his kind, and it's not just their stunning inability to follow the argument of the article. It's the sheer petulance with which they rage and foam and the mouth. They don't even seem to notice that this article is not even anti-atheist! Anyone who has ever bothered to read Hart's books knows that he not only respects but even loves many of the great atheist figures of the past, that he takes their arguments very seriously. And he certainly never writes apologetics for religious institutions, which he seems to distrust on principle. This essay is a specific complaint against how bad the arguments in the New Atheist bestsellers have all turned out to be, and how shallow the whole conversation has become. Lord, even many devoutly atheist philosophers have pointed out as much.

I am of course pleased that Hart treats the New Atheists with the same disdain they heap on thinkers they don't understand. But it is obvious from the little Dawkinsites who have contributed to this thread that the zealous unbelievers are pretty thin-skinned creatures.

4.22.2010 | 4:57pm
Porphyry says:
Behold the superior reasoning abilities of the Dawkins.net trolls. I think we can sum up their devastating critiques of Mr. Hart as follows:

"You didn't produce a compelling argument for God's existence in the course of pointing out how intellectually shallow the New Atheists are. Therefore, the dismissive posturing of the New Atheists is validated."

And, of course:

"If you can't demonstrate the existence of God in a combox thread, by way of replying to my own emphatic demand for some kind of empirical demonstration that God exists, then your entire system of metaphysical beliefs is obviously either vacuous or false. If you point out that I am confused about the difference between scientific claims and metaphysical claims, then you are just obfuscating!"

Mr. Hart points out that the New Atheist literature is rife with shallowness and confusion, and by golly if the Dawkinoids don't come over here bound and determined to prove him right. Parody is entertaining enough, but its no match for self-parody. Thanks guys!

4.22.2010 | 4:58pm
VG says:
Thank you, David B. Hart, for a great review and a brilliant critique besides. The New Atheists have always been intellectual toddlers, as so many of these comments show - you should take their tantrums and displays here as a testament to just how powerful an article you've written.

I'll be skipping this book for a more interesting challenge. Maybe Real Materialism by Galen Strawson.

4.22.2010 | 5:04pm
James L. says:
Gosh, these New Atheist acolytes get all excited when someone talks back to them as rudely as they talk about thinkers they don't understand.

One can set aside the lousy arguments of Mr. Zara and others, of course. The poor fellow still doesn't get the traditional arguments about ontological contingency and causality, so it doesn't matter what he thinks about them. But it doesn't matter, because that's not relevant to this article--which isn't even an argument for faith or against atheism!

To quote:

"For one thing, it seems obvious to me that the peculiar vapidity of New Atheist literature is simply a reflection of the more general vapidity of all public religious discourse these days, believing and unbelieving alike. In part, of course, this is because the modern media encourage only fragmentary, sloganeering, and emotive debates, but it is also because centuries of the incremental secularization of society have left us with a shared grammar that is perhaps no longer adequate to the kinds of claims that either reflective faith or reflective faithlessness makes."

That's all that's going on here. A lament for the days when atheists and theists knew what they were talking about, and put some serious reflection into the matter.

Anyone who knows Hart's work knows how seriously he takes the great atheists of the past and how icy a view he has of religious institutions and brainless fideism. And, in pointing out that the New Atheist literature has been intellectually vapid, he's pointing out something that even a lot of principled atheist philosophers have said as well. But I guess these folks are too thin-skinned to pay attention.

4.22.2010 | 5:08pm
GFA says:
Hart has written many hundreds of words describing the straw men "gods" the new atheists set up as targets, but none describing or defining what "God" actually means.

Do you think we could have a clear definition of what "God" actually is, rather than what "God" is not?

On this website (http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=3301), Hart writes:-

"For Christians, one must look to the cross of Christ to take the measure of God’s love, and of its worth in comparison to the sufferings of a fallen world. And one must look to the risen Christ to grasp the glory for which we are intended, and take one’s understanding of the majesty and tragedy of creation’s freedom from that."

Which implies to me that "God" is an entity with the andromorphic property of being able to "love". But then, (above):-

"We can all happily concede that no complex, ubiquitous, omniscient, and omnipotent superbeing, inhabiting the physical cosmos and subject to the rules of evolution, exists. But who has ever suggested the contrary?

Numerous attempts have been made, by the way, to apprise Dawkins of what the traditional definition of divine simplicity implies, "

So a "divine simplicity", which is not "complex", is capable of "love", which is usually used in the context of very complex humans.

But we also have:-

"Thus, abstracting from the universal conditions of contingency, one very well may (and perhaps must) conclude that all things are sustained in being by an absolute plenitude of actuality, whose very essence is being as such: not a “supreme being,” not another thing within or alongside the universe, but the infinite act of being itself, the one eternal and transcendent source of all existence and knowledge, in which all finite being participates."

In which case, why all the stories about nailing that bloke to a cross? Isn't that a bit parochial for the "transcendent source of all existence and knowledge, in which all finite being participates"?

4.22.2010 | 5:13pm
Michelle B says:
Because atheists demand evidence, we are shallow? No, you and your brain dead ilk are shallow and intellectually dishonest. And no, we are not going anywhere. We are onto you bloviating windbags. We do not care if you are pro or anti atheism, or you have hard-ons for certain atheists from the past. All we care about is that you moderates are without substance who are empty headed enough to label people who ask for evidence as shallow! You are nuts. And no, my calling you nutty is not a temper tantrum, it is called expressive speech.

You are the thin skinned ones. Not to mention pathetic.

Where is the meat, theists! Give us evidence or otherwise we are not going anywhere, silly children.

4.22.2010 | 5:15pm
John says:
If you want some irony, look at the letters section of this issue. There Hart is defending himself against creationists for having written a positive review of Richard Dawkins' latest book, Greatest Show.

I don't know why the poor guy bothers, since the brainless fundamentalists on both sides are going to attack him.

Anyway, great article.

4.22.2010 | 5:28pm
Quine says:
@ Porphyry & VG,

If you can show we are wrong, do so. Else, drop the name calling ad hominum.

Got evidence?

4.22.2010 | 5:33pm
Sean says:
Weird, it's like the Atheist Justice League's assembled for an all-out assault on the Legion of Doom's headquarters. Where'd that come from?

4.22.2010 | 5:36pm
Papalinton says:
Dr Hart,
It would seem to me, from the limited capacity for intellectual thought from my being an 'ordinary person ' , and reading widely on the arguments for supporting theism and atheism alike, once one pares down or casts aside all the baggage and paraphernalia in the bible, the myths, legends, stories, parables, eschaton, etc etc, the messages that shine through so brightly, so clearly, so unwaveringly, are the purely humanist ideas, the universal truths that transcend all religions, all beliefs in all peoples. The "universal humanist truths" characterised by the 'golden rule', do to others as you would want them do to you, do not lie, do not kill etc etc, have underpinned human existence since time immemorial. They are a product of our social existence, they are a product of our evolution, they are structured into our very genes.

We must let go of the old and tired arguments of whether there is a god or not, for christ's sake. Let it go.

4.22.2010 | 5:42pm
Steve Zara says:
Frederick Greer

We understand Hart's position all too well. There have been many who have put forward the same arguments recently.

They believe that atheism should be painful, the results of a long and weary analysis of theology. That atheism is, of necessity, the bringer of existential angst, of a fear of immorality, like some obsessive-compulsive anxious that without guidance they would harm someone else. But empathy and caring aren't the privilege of religion. They come from our humanity. There is nothing to fear from atheism. There is no need to abandon love, compassion or a sense of wonder or the appreciation of beauty. In fact, how demeaning is Hart's position that we can only be tricked into full humanity by a belief in myth.

Another problem with Hart's position is that, unavoidably, religion is politics. Almost no-one cares about the unprovable transcendent nonsense of theology that, to a good approximation, no believer believes in. People care about freedom, justice and fairness. One minute, theism is a philosophical position lying flat on the page, trapped in academic literature, but the next, it jumps out, in 3D, with fangs, snarling at those who want freedom for women over their bodies, or equality for gays. Theism is not some benign intellectual exercise, about unprovable transcendental nonsense. It's about gaining political power in the world, and that is why the new atheist movement is growing, and won't be stopped. It wants to stop the privileges given to irrational religious belief.

4.22.2010 | 5:46pm
glid says:
I somehow managed to get through this "intellectual" masturbatory collection of words but i, perhaps not surprisingly, have a hard time understanding what this confused author actually is trying to say.

He seems to criticize the regression ad infinitum saying it's an old argument. So what? It's still a good argument. Logical fallacy. But hey, the author then admits that no one actually believes in this deistic all-transcending being - thank you for that.

So, he believes in the crucified Jeebus flying up to heaven for our so called sins? Sounds amazing - who could've thought that up? Oh i don't know, maybe illiterate desert goat-herders, but that's just me. It probably really is an amazingly beautiful and complex enigma.

The author also claims that many historic facts are misrepresented but doesn't provide any evidence to back that up.

And finally, christianity apparently was great for being the springboard for us to create the society we have today. I guess he has a point there, about as much as the point that we should thank viruses for existing so that we could learn to make vaccines. And probably we should thank christianity for condoning slavery so we could learn that slavery really isn't that great of an idea.

So, maybe i'm wrong, maybe the author believes in some other kind of god - some form that most christians probably would disapprove of. So thank you again christianity for having existed so that we could break out of your bonds and create a society that allows people like the author to believe in "transcendent fullness of actuality" without being crucified.

4.22.2010 | 5:48pm
Mac Horton says:
"Mr. Hart points out that the New Atheist literature is rife with shallowness and confusion, and by golly if the Dawkinoids don't come over here bound and determined to prove him right."

Indeed. They clearly didn't understand what they read, and furthermore they don't, and possibly can't, understand that they didn't understand. Not much you can say to that.

4.22.2010 | 5:49pm
Michael Bone says:
@Frederick Greer
@Porphyry
@VG

So far, I've seen little of substance to counter the shallow comments of Steve Zara and Jack Rawlinson. Perhaps you're confusing the lack of Tillich inspired obfuscation for depth.

4.22.2010 | 6:04pm
CPE Gaebler says:
Porphyry: That about sums it up. I've tried to explain that their cries for a more rigorous definition of God is unnecessary for the purposes of this specific article.

The only remotely valid point they've brought up is that many people do perhaps believe in such a shallow and ignorant view of God (although, I've not seen a survey and I doubt they have either). The problem is that the New Atheists are ignorant that this is not the only view of God, and that attacking the ignorant (albeit possibly widely-held) views of God does not disprove Christianity. I'm fine with you disproving ignorant, shallow versions of Christianity, go right ahead. But such rancorous declarations of ulterior motives such as Jack Rowlinson is spewing are rather unwarranted, although they are mildly amusing.

4.22.2010 | 6:16pm
Sean Williams says:
Personally, I take this is a compliment.

The paragraph below sounds like a pretty good description of my conversion experience away from the Church (the whole point of 50 Voices, after all), but I'm sure it wasn't intended that way.

"I came to realize that the whole enterprise, when purged of its hugely preponderant alloy of sanctimonious bombast, is reducible to only a handful of arguments, most of which consist in simple category mistakes or the kind of historical oversimplifications that are either demonstrably false or irrelevantly true. And arguments of that sort are easily dismissed, if one is hardy enough to go on pointing out the obvious with sufficient indefatigability."

4.22.2010 | 6:24pm
Frank says:
At the end of the day, you either believe in supernatural gods, miracles, virgen births, an Earth that is only 6-10 thousand years old and basing life's most interesting questions on faith alone; all born and cultivated from the indoctrination of gullible children ....... or you believe in reason, discourse, facts, scientific observation of the natural world. The facts show that secular populations are growing .... and for that I "Thank God" ... errrr I mean free thought.

4.22.2010 | 6:49pm
Tyler Durden says:
Frederick Greer says:

"But it is obvious from the little Dawkinsites who have contributed to this thread that the zealous unbelievers are pretty thin-skinned creatures."

Thin-skinned you say?

Isn't that the fallback position of the theist? Why else would they feel the need for blashphemy laws? (*cough, Giordano Bruno, Galileo Galilei, cough*)

Radical Muslim groups seeking the death of cartoonists for depicting Mohammed, that's thin-skinned.

Christian groups crying "persecution" whenever questions are asked of them regarding discrimination they choose to display to members of the public, that's thin-skinned.

Jewish groups seeking "special dispensation" from local councils due to their adherance to archaic laws and rituals which also impacts on other in the community, that's thin-skinned.

Asking for evidence after a certain claim is made, only to be let down once again with the typical theist ploy of rhetoric and equivocation, then complaining, is not thin-skinned. It's just curiosity.


"Gosh what a lot of silly half-educated whining self-congratulatory dolts these New Atheists are."

Well, now you've hurt my "thin-skinned" non-believer feelings. That's the Christian spirit, well done you!

4.22.2010 | 6:49pm
John C. Wright says:
Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury,

One wonders whether or not Mr. Hart himself, or some clever forger, decided to post a group of comments, allegedly from atheists, merely intending to show the intellectual shallowness and illogical of which Mr. Hart complains.

Honestly, Mr. Hart writes an article where he says the arguments in certain particular books are arid and shallow, an aridity he contrasts unfavorably with Nietzsche: the point in dispute that he means to prove is that these named books make no serious arguments. The example used is the argument from infinite regress, of which he adroitly shows the limitations.

Then in haughty answer, a group of pretend atheists leave comments ranging from a challenge that Mr. Hart did not proffer an argument for the existence of God, to a victorious bellow stating that no empirical proof of God exists, to an unsupported assertion that the burden of proof rests on the theist to prove theism, not on the atheist to prove atheism.

Does no one notice that these responses have no logical bearing on the topic being discussed?

The proper answer would be to bring out an example from one of these books and to show it is a rigorous and deep argument.

The article was complaining about the poor quality of atheist argument: it was not and did not pretend to be an article setting forth an ontological proof of the existence of God. Saying the article failed to prove God exists has no bearing on whether the modern atheist arguments are poor.

The only argument given here is a metaphysical one, namely, that contingent being presupposes necessary being. It is mentioned only as an example of new atheists not comprehending subtle but clear philosophical distinctions. Not only is this not an empirical argument, but, by its own terms, no contingent fact of any kind could tend to prove or tend to disprove it. The argument is about why anything exists at all, and not about the particular configuration of cause and effect which applies that that small sliver of current existence open to our sense impressions.

So the atheist who offers this as a refutation of that argument is demonstrating, more clearly than Mr. Hart, that at least one new atheist indeed does not comprehend a subtle but clear philosophical distinction.

That the commenter chose a tone of swaggering condescension, talking down to an audience that gets what he misses, merely adds ironic confirmation of Mr. Hart's lament.

Again, stating that the burden of proof lies with the theists to prove God exists shows a similar philistine attitude toward logical argumentation. Supposing we grant the assertion, and suppose further than no Christian argument for the existence of God has been found to carry conviction. What follows? Does it follow that Mr. Dawkins and Mr. Hitchens and others are excused from making strong rather than weak arguments, coherent rather than unrigorous and illogical, displaying insight rather than displaying a contempt and incomprehension of the opposition arguments?

Seriously: suppose it were a court of law. The Defense stands and says the burden of proof is on the Prosecution. The judge and jury nod gravely, for the Defense speaks the truth. The Prosecution gives its case: only eleven of the twelve jurors are convinced (after all, atheism is a rather small minority). The case is insufficiently convincing. Then the Defense stands up, and his witnesses get the time and place of the crime wrong, contradict each other, and, in his closing arguments, the Defense reads the brief he had prepared for a different case, having nothing to do with the current facts or relevant law.

The twelfth juror need not change his mind about the facts of the case, to be sure, but nothing says he must necessarily leap to the defense of the inadequate defense of the Defense.

John C. Wright, esq.

4.22.2010 | 7:13pm
Darron Knutson says:
Hart's produced another example of what biologist P.Z. Myers so memorably labeled "The Courtier's Reply" to what's come to be called "The New Atheists" ("TNA"). "The Courtier's Reply" employs an outer show of erudition and "insider knowledge" as it concedes TNA's central arguments against simple, outmoded, "unsophisticated" versions of faith and religion that no "serious," "thoughtful" believer worthy of current consideration any longer professes, complains that TNA do not address "sophisticated" theologies and understandings of God, do not understand the depth of what they criticize and the implications of abandoning faith, and offer "shallow" arguments with no content that hasn't been around for over a century -- yet all the while never providing any reason to show how their "sophisticated" God beliefs avoid TNA's arguments, let alone any good reason to accept those beliefs. All the elevated, learned discourse serves to obscure the utter failure to answer TNA's central challenge, much as the parading guards', nobles', and other imperial courtiers' empty assertions served to distract the crowd from the Emperor's nakedness in the familiar old story "The Emperor's New Clothes." To "The Courtier's Reply" Hart adds the complaint that their absence of fear and trembling at the prospect of a Godless world proves that TNA don't fully understand what they're asking for. As have so many other similar critics, Hart's criticisms fall wide of the mark:

1. TNA didn't coin that term and have not, so far as I'm seen, claimed to offer novel philosophical arguments to reject belief in God or the supernatural (although they have used recent scientific advances to support some of their claims). In fact, they often contend that apologists for belief have yet to answer persuasively arguments that have been around for millennia. The only thing "new" about TNA is their attitude and contention that religious faith should be as susceptible to criticism as any other belief or opinion about how the world works.

2. The books commonly associated with TNA were intended for a popular audience, not those with graduate degrees in philosophy and theology. It should come as no surprise that TNA focus on the beliefs held by the bulk of self-identified believers rather than the tiny minority of "theological sophisticates." Directed against "50 Voices of Disbelief: Why We Are Atheists," such criticism is particularly off-base. One cannot expect pieces of only several pages each to address systematically and thoroughly all 3,000 plus years of thought inspired by the Abrahamic tradition. If it were fair to criticize the contributors to "50 Voices" for that failing, it'd be equally fair to criticize Hart for his failure to offer in this review (of approximately equal length) a compelling rational argument for belief.

3. Hart's placing fancy labels on the problems theism has faced for centuries proves only the extent of Hart's vocabulary; it does not solve the problems.

Take, for example, the infinite regress problem. Changing God's label from Aquinas' "uncaused First Cause" or "unmoved First Mover" to "an absolute plenitude of actuality, whose very essence is being as such" doesn't help at all: it amounts to the same thing, an asserted exception to an assumed rule that everything is contingent, not necessary, but for which no evidence is offered. People's difficulty getting their minds around infinite regresses of contingent phenomena in conventional space-time provides no support for some "necessary being" existing in a state outside space and time, which, I respectfully submit, is equally -- if not more -- resistant to coherent definition and understanding than an infinite regress.

The same can be said for the response that's been made to the contention that explaining the complexity of the reality we observe around us by reference to an intelligent act of creation by God fails to account for the complexity that such a God must have possessed to have committed such an act of intelligence. Recognizing the obvious difficulty, Hart and others say that they're not talking about simplicity in terms of mere everyday matter and energy, they're talking about "divine simplicity ... [that] logically follows from the very idea of transcendence" and that "God [is] the transcendent fullness of actuality ... differ[ent] in kind from talk of quantitative degrees of composite complexity." Is it unduly churlish of me to point out that TNA also argue that no one has offered a coherent, comprehensible definition or description of such a "divinely simple," "transcendent fullness of actuality," let alone offered any evidence or other good reason to believe that such a "qualitatively different" ontological substance actually exists -- and that Hart doesn't either? Nearly as I can tell, the definitional boundary of this "being," "thing," "stuff," or whatever is the rim of the logical hole that theists have to fill to account for reality's complexity without contradicting themselves or nakedly begging the question. As such, this concept of the "divinely simple" isn't so much a solution to the difficulty as it is just another empty relabeling of the problem. Invoking a gauzy, unobserved, and for all meaningful purposes undefined "transcendent" reality beyond human understanding to overcome a contradiction equally resistant to human comprehension is simply dressed-up misdirection, no matter how many six-bit words one uses to try to impress the rubes.

Accordingly, it's hardly a compelling criticism of TNA that it merely offers the same criticisms skeptics have offered for centuries using the same familiar terms theism's apologists have used since time out-of-mind. As noted, TNA address a popular audience likely more familiar with the older terms and, in any event, the newer more "sophisticated" terms theists now employ don't effectively advance the argument anyway. I liken it to a game of philosophical "Calvin Ball" where every time they're "tagged out," the apologists for the God hypothesis coin a batch of new words to paper over the same old contradictions and begged questions and declare, by fiat, that they're got yet another exception to the rule that should allow them to stay "on base."

4. TNA's failure to exhibit the degree of chagrin, melancholy, and "dread" Hart apparently deems requisite to the passing of Christianity as the dominate force in Western culture is not a particularly impressive criticism. I realize that religion's "sophisticated" apologists feel compelled to praise Nietzsche as allegedly the only atheist thinker to have properly appreciated the consequences of atheism, but claiming that TNA cannot possibly have comprehended the full import of their views simply because they aren't trembling in their shoes in dread at the prospect of a Godless world is, to put it bluntly, fatuous. His condemnation that TNA offer as replacements for Christianity only mere "scientism" and "tenuous vestiges of Christian morality . . . absurdly denominated 'humanism,'" reflects Hart's own timorousness and ignorance far more than it does the rich resources for constructing a worthy life and culture without God that have been available for centuries and at increasingly growing pace for the last 250 years.

Hart sees the glass as half-empty and fears the loss of good things he thinks wouldn't have happened without Christianity; TNA sees the glass as half-full and looks forward to the better world made possible by leaving behind God-belief and the irrationalities and horrors it has fostered. By TNA's reckoning, people were responsible for any good Christianity may have caused, not God, so people have the capability to retain everything worthwhile Christianity helped create -- for its own sake, not God's.

Beyond that, before accusing TNA of anything like vagueness or lack of meaningful content in what it offers in lieu of faith, someone like Hart who's been spewing clouds of verbal inert gas such as "ground and depth of being," "transcendent fullness of actuality," "absolute plenitude of actuality," "infinite act of being itself," or "one eternal and transcendent source of all existence and knowledge, in which all finite being participates" should show at least some awareness of the resulting gargantuan irony. I've read plenty of modern, "sophisticated" theologians and I've yet to find anyone who can say what terms like that actually mean -- aside from "words that provide 'sophisticated' believers that warm fuzzy feeling that belief is justified without even though no one can say precisely what's actually believed."

5. Finally, Hart's claim that TNA have simply traded in one unjustifiable certainty for another equally unsupportable, close-minded dogma isn't quite fair. So far as I've been able to find, all of TNA say that all "truth" is tentative and subject to revision in light of experience and that they are perfectly willing to change their minds about anything if provided some evidence that they're mistaken.

No doubt Hart would claim that TNA's naturalism and epistemological empiricism are "blind dogmas," but Hart and other apologists for religion are free to attack those starting premises. Nearly all people - even most theologians and philosophers {8^) - accept that the material reality of energy and matter really exists and that our senses can provide us useful information about it. TNA's refusal to go beyond naturalism and empiricism merely reflects the absence of any evidence or other reason to do so, hardly a closed-minded, unreasoning insistence on just another unwarranted certitude.

Perhaps I'm not doing Hart complete justice; after all, I haven't read his "Atheist Delusions: The Christian Revolution and Its Fashionable Enemies," nor any of his other books. If this review of "50 Voices" is any fair indication, though, I'd guess he's just one more courtier spouting yet more empty, jumped-up persiflage in the hope of distracting the crowd and so they won't notice that Emperor "Belief" has no clothes.

4.22.2010 | 7:14pm
severalspeciesof says:
To mention that an argument is shallow, the prudent thing to do would be to advance the contrary to show the difference...

Is there any one who can show that Mr Hart has done this?

-----------

If this is an example:

"Numerous attempts have been made, by the way, to apprise Dawkins of what the traditional definition of divine simplicity implies, and of how it logically follows from the very idea of transcendence, and to explain to him what it means to speak of God as the transcendent fullness of actuality, and how this differs in kind from talk of quantitative degrees of composite complexity"

Then Mr Hart has failed in logic 101... 'Divine simplicity' does not logically follow from the idea of transcendence... If that is the case, would someone tell me how that is so...

4.22.2010 | 7:20pm
Mark Jones says:
@Frederick Greer

This is the sort of vacuous nonsense that gives faitheists a bad name:

"This essay is a specific complaint against how bad the arguments in the New Atheist bestsellers have all turned out to be, and how shallow the whole conversation has become."

How bad they've *all* turned out to be? Seriously?

The only distinguishing feature of 'new' atheists from atheists is that they've been more successful at getting to the Zeitgeist; they're using the *same* arguments against theism that have been employed down the ages, from Hume to Russell to Mackie. Hume's arguments were remarkably prescient of the ongoing replacement of scientific explanations for religious ones. So how can they *all* be bad? Please tell.

There are a few atheist philosophers who bemoan the new atheists, it's true - Ruse, Pigliucci, Baggini, to my knowledge, no doubt more. But since they actually *agree* with the new atheist arguments they are reduced to snide hypocritical remarks about the *tone* of the NAs; how they should be nicer and more courteous; insults must be polysyllabic not Anglo-Saxon.

"I am of course pleased that Hart treats the New Atheists with the same disdain they heap on thinkers they don't understand. But it is obvious from the little Dawkinsites who have contributed to this thread that the zealous unbelievers are pretty thin-skinned creatures."

LOL, and the inconsistency shines through again. You're 'pleased' that Hart treats the NAs with disdain, but not that atheists treat theists with disdain? It's the inequity that appals. NAs are happy to be attacked in the same way they attack, but the faitheist says 'Hey, don't call your opponent a wanker, you onanist." You guys need to take a long hard look at yourselves.

4.22.2010 | 7:48pm
MarkOnTheRiver says:
Porphyr
"If you can't demonstrate the existence of God in a combox thread, by way of replying to my own emphatic demand for some kind of empirical demonstration that God exists, then your entire system of metaphysical beliefs is obviously either vacuous or false. If you point out that I am confused about the difference between scientific claims and metaphysical claims, then you are just obfuscating!"

From Wiktionary;

Metaphysical. . .
1. Of or pertaining to metaphysics.
2. Immaterial, supersensual, not physical (more properly, "beyond" that which is physical).

Well I'm glad we've finally got, at least a definition of that which we're arguing against. If you think, for a moment that, even the least sophisticated atheists, like myself, to the the likes of Steve Zara, Jack Rawlinson or pretty much any atheist commentator here, will lose so much as a seconds sleep agonising over our failures to to counter the subtle nuances of metaphysical sophistry thrown up by the christian apologists like you, then you're even more deluded than you seem.

VG
"Thank you, David B. Hart, for a great review and a brilliant critique besides. The New Atheists have always been intellectual toddlers, as so many of these comments show - You should take their tantrums and displays here as a testament to just how powerful an article you've written."

Perhaps you'd care to highlight, and in terms that concisely define, rebut the tantrums of the "New Atheists". Actually, I'll be kind. Just pick one.

4.22.2010 | 8:08pm
Ophelia Benson says:
Hey, David Hart, you didn't single out my essay in 50 Voices for abuse and contempt! I'm totally insulted and crushed and left out. My essay was really really really bad, do admit. Not a word about that "tender agony of the soul that finds the glory of God in the most abject and defeated of human forms." Gee I wish I could write like that.

4.22.2010 | 8:14pm
Newton A Mines says:
"I am not—honestly, I am not—simply being dismissive here," writes Hart, at one point. I had to laugh at that. This must be some new sense of the word "honestly", of which I was not previously aware.

Beyond that, a complaint that atheists are shallow is merely insult, obviously, but it also suggests that the person who makes the complaint misses an important point. That is, the question of the existence or non-existence of one or more gods is not a "deep" one, calling for endless screeds of verbiage.

It's as simple as atheists say it is: someone who asserts that something exists must produce evidence, or have their claim dismissed.

You see, you don't have to be clever to be an atheist, any more than you have to be clever to know that Mont Blanc exists while tooth fairies don't. Some atheists are clever and some are not, but that doesn't matter. On the question of whether gods like Zeus, YHWH/Jehovah, Tammuz, Tane and the rest of them exist they say, sensibly, that there's no reason to think so. And on that point all the insult in the world won't change the fact that they happen to be right.

"Deepity" is a form of discourse, rich in sound and thin on argument, clarity or evidence. Mr Hart provided an example above, but it's not only religious writers who produce it. Many post-modernists do too.

If you like deepity, you may not enjoy atheist writing. Atheists, in my observation, try to avoid writing the stuff; that's because deepity is a worthless product. You won't find any deepity in "50 Voices of Unbelief", for example. Seek it out. It's a very good, waffle-free, book.

4.22.2010 | 8:20pm
Dan Balmat says:
@ Frederick Greer;

Calling people “silly half-educated whining dolts” speaks to your own intellectual capacities more than anyone else’s.

Your assertion is that “The essay is a complaint against how bad the arguments in the New Atheist bestsellers have all turned out to be,” and you rail that atheists “can’t follow the argument of the article.”

Of course, the only way Hart can justify his “complaint” that atheist arguments are “bad,” and thereby support his “argument,” would be to actually refute a single atheist argument. He fails miserably, but hopes that this failure will be lost in disparaging prose and unilateral declarations of victory. Then you and other posters then claim that we are “foaming at the mouth” when we have the temerity to point out the failure.

Hart’s principal argument is that the New Atheists are not “profound” atheists, in that they have not “taken the trouble to understand, in its most sophisticated forms, the belief [they] reject[], and to understand the consequences of that rejection.” In sum, Hart’s main “critique” seems to be “He’s no Nietszche!”

I doubt any of the New Atheists would claim otherwise. Of course, this is not a refutation of any argument at all. It barely qualifies as a critique. You erroneously equate “simple” with “shallow.” The arguments advanced by atheists of all stripes may be set forth more or less comprehensively, but the essence of them is quite simple: There is no compelling logical or empirical reason to think anything like a “god” exists. (However one defines “god,” and you’ll notice Hart studiously and tellingly avoids doing so.) The mythologies, cruelties and absurdities of the world’s religions do nothing to suggest otherwise.

No doubt this will be attacked as an “unsophisticated” understanding of theology. To repeat many earlier posts: Courtier’s Reply. ALL theological arguments are of the “angels on the head of a pin” variety. What the New Atheists are doing is are saying “Yeah, yeah, I see the pin. Show me the angels, then we can talk.”

We understand that this demand is inconvenient to those who want to believe without evidence, i.e., those who want to have faith. And, to echo Jack Rawlinson, above, I suspect that this is really what Hart and his supporters are complaining about. To further echo Mr. Rawlinson: We do not care.

4.22.2010 | 8:47pm
Edward T. Babinski says:
PLEASE READ, MR. HART

I would like Mr. Hart to be more specific concerning the nature of the "social catastrophe" that he claims is occurring due to changing patterns in belief (or lack thereof), and exactly why the thought of such a "social catastrophe" makes him so much more wordy and volatile than the thought of other catastrophes humanity faces as a whole (or will probably continue to face in the future), like population growth outpacing economic growth (locally, and/or nationally), or pollution continuing to build up in the environment (locally, and/or nationally), economic difficulties, water shortages, natural disasters, etc.

Mr. Hart focuses at the end of his review on the thought of a broken human figure being connected with God, but he does not ask why humans weep at the sight of a broken human figure at all, or at a hurt animal? I suspect there is something more basic than "religion" going on, something more universal than "Christianity."

Why does Hart not also mention that humans have a wealth of sayings on practical moral wisdom that can and have inspired other humans for thousands of years, including lines from great novelists and historians. Why not seek the best in every book and every person? In other words, does "Jesus" have to get "all the glory?" I also suspect that public schools in U.S. could teach classes in ethics, featuring all of the world's greatest practical moral wisdom, and our children might be better off, but that there are so many people who believe that "Jesus must be treated as more than just a great moral teacher" who would cavil at the thought of having their children taught "heathen ethics" in school. So it appears to be the religious element that has left the public school system in the U.S. bereft of ethical teaching. At least that's my current hypothesis. That, and the fact that so many people are barbaric in the sense of not even knowing much about the world's practical moral wisdom from all the world's sacred writings and philosophical writings and novelists, etc., that such religious people simply do not have much room in their minds to appreciate anything in their minds except "the words of God" in the only "holy book" they were taught to revere.

Secondly, does Mr. Hart assume there is only a single "Jesus" and a single "Christianity?" They are legion, and historians continue to debate a variety of views concerning the life and teachings of the "historical" Jesus. While "Christianities" continue to split off from one another like branches of an evolutionary tree. As do Muslim-anities, Hindu-anities, Buddhist-anities, etc.

Mr. Hart in his review sounds a bit like Kenneth Scott Latourette who extolled "Jesus' wide and profound effect upon humanity, especially "in the past three or four generations. . . . Through him millions of individuals have been transformed and have begun to live the kind of life which He exemplified. . . . Through Him movements have been set in motion. . . . Measured by His influence, Jesus is central in the human story."

But exactly how many of society's "influences" can be traced back to "Jesus?" (Jesus certainly didn't seem especially fond of earthly families when compared with the necessity of joining his particular "in group" of believers.) How much do we owe to ancient Near Eastern culture? The Sumerians/Babylonians, who lived long before Jesus, taught in their Councils of Wisdom, "Do not return evil to your adversary; Requite with kindness the one who does evil to you, Maintain justice for your enemy, Be friendly to your enemy." In The Dawn of Conscience James Henry Breasted showed how the earliest known recorded ethics and laws belonged to the ancient Egyptians, Sumerians and Babylonians, who preceded the Hebrews. More recently, see David P. Wright's, Inventing God’s Law: How the Covenant Code of the Bible Used and Revised the Laws of Hammurabi (London: Oxford University Press, 2009). There is also the critically acclaimed work, Old Testament Parallels: Laws and Stories from the Ancient Near East. And, a three volume series, The Context of Scripture. Not to mention Origins: The Ancient Near Eastern Background of Some Modern Western Institutions by William W. Hallo who lists the debt modern civilization owes to ancient Egyptian, Sumerian and Babylonian ideas of urbanism, the formation of capital, the order of the alphabet, astronomy, mathematics, algebra, the division of the day into 24 hours, the hour into 60 minutes, the circle into 360 degrees, the coronation of kings, games, cookbooks, and much more.

Keeping such information in mind, Latourette can not reasonably assert that "Measured by his influence, Jesus is central in the human story." The "human story" encompasses every civilization on earth over a very long period of time. "Jesus" was not "born" into the "human story" until a mere two thousand years ago. And after his birth it took ten to fifteen hundred years before the first Christian missionaries reached China and the Americas. (During that same period, Islam challenged Christianity and "won" the Middle East, North Africa, parts of Eastern Europe, parts of Russia, parts of India, and parts of Indonesia, to become the most widespread non-Christian religion on earth. Also, Communism's expansion was more explosive than either Christianity's or Islam's, and even after the decline of Communist influence, it has left behind billions of "practical atheists" when it comes to religion. And Europe, once the home and center of "Christian civilization," the continent that evangelized the world, was blessed with the plague and also ceaseless wars, including two World Wars, and has only calmed down and enjoyed peace these past 70 years since the end of the second World War, in fact that's more peace than Europe has EVER seen before when it was so enthusiastically "Christian.")

I would agree with Hart and with Latourette if they had merely claimed that "Jesus" was known at least by name by billions. (But of those billions, how many different interpretations of "Jesus" exist?) I would also agree if he had merely claimed that the human story had been influenced to varying degrees by different interpretations of "Jesus." But to brashly claim that "Measured by his influence, Jesus is central to the human story" demonstrates a lack of commitment to historical truth and accuracy. The "human story" is old and brimming over with "influences" stretching back to ancient civilizations both East and West. In Western civilization alone there were ancient Near Eastern influences; Greek/Roman politics, art, architecture, law, science and philosophy; Islamic mathematics, astronomy, philosophy (including the thousands of Greek and Roman manuscripts preserved by Islamic scholars at the library of Seville that played a crucial role in re-igniting Western society's intellectual progress). Other major influences include "guns, germs, and steel;" the Renaissance; the Enlightenment; modern day socialist, humanist and feminist influences and ideals; and "common sense" (as Thomas Paine might say).

Speaking of the crucial influence that the Enlightenment exerted upon Christianity, theologian Albert Schweitzer pointed out, "For centuries Christianity treasured the great commandment of love and mercy as traditional truth without recognizing it as a reason for opposing slavery, witch burning and all the other ancient and medieval forms of inhumanity. It was only when Christianity experienced the influence of the thinking of the Age of Enlightenment that it was stirred into entering the struggle for humanity. The remembrance of this ought to preserve it forever from assuming any air of superiority in comparison with thought."

Pulitzer prize-winning political scientist, Francis Fukuyama put it this way: "There was a time when religion played an all-powerful role in European politics with Protestants and Catholics organizing themselves into political factions and squandering the wealth of Europe on sectarian wars. [Like the "Thirty Year's War" that began in 1618 when Protestant leaders threw two Catholic emissaries out of a Prague window, and which turned central Europe into a wasteland of misery, leading to the deaths of more than a quarter of Europe's population. - ED.] English liberalism emerged in direct reaction to the religious fanaticism of the English Civil War. Contrary to those who at the time believed that religion was a necessary and permanent feature of the political landscape, liberalism vanquished religion in Europe. After a centuries-long confrontation with liberalism, religion was taught to be tolerant. In the sixteenth century, it would have seemed strange to most Europeans not to use political power to enforce belief in their particular sectarian faith. Today, the idea that the practice of religion other than one's own should injure one's own faith seems bizarre, even to the most pious churchmen. Religion has been relegated to the sphere of private life - exiled, it would seem, more or less permanently from European political life except on certain narrow issues like abortion... Religion per se did not create free societies; Christianity in a certain sense had to abolish itself through a secularization of its goals before liberalism could emerge...Political liberalism in England ended the religious wars between Protestant and Catholic that had nearly destroyed that country during the seventeenth century: with its advent, religion was defanged by being made tolerant."

Even Robert Wuthnow, an evangelical Christian writer, admitted in Books & Culture (a newsletter produced by the editors of Christianity Today), "Framers of modern democratic theory in eighteenth century Europe [and colonial America - ED.] were profoundly influenced by the religious wars that had dominated the previous century and a half. Locke's emphasis on tolerance and Rousseau's idea of a social contract were efforts to find unifying agreements that would discourage religious groups from appealing absolutely to a higher source of authority. The idea of civil society emerged as a way of saying that people who disagree with each other about such vital matters as religion could nevertheless live together in harmony."

But let us return to Hart's and Latourette's praise of individuals in the "past three or four generations" whose lives "have been transformed and have begun to live the kind of life which He [Jesus] exemplified." A few that stand out in my mind are Mohandas K. Gandhi and Albert Schweitzer, though Gandhi believed in focusing on whatever was best in each religion rather than trying to convert people from one religion to another. And Schweitzer was a noted theologian who rejected "the crooked and fragile thinking of Christian apologetics." He later became a medical "missionary" in Africa because he held a liberal Christian philosophy based on a "reverence for life." And what about Florence Nightengale, the woman who made nursing a legitimate profession? She was one of the first women-libbers who believed a woman's place was not simply in the home. She made love to other women and disdained institutionalized religion. (Speaking of which the founder of the American Red Cross, Clara Barton, was a freethinker. And the founder of the International Red Cross, Andre Dunant, was gay.)

There are innumerable charitable organizations today; from international peace-seeking (and hunger-fighting) organizations to a multitude of national and local charities. In the U.S. such charities as the American Heart Association, the American Cancer Society and the Muscular Dystrophy Association are supported by donations to The United Way, which helps raise contributions for thousands of other national and local charitable organizations few of which are connected with religion or a particular religious denomination. And there are plenty of other charities seeking to help others like the Will Rogers Institute and Comic Relief. More food is given away each year by secular organizations and governments than by "Christians." Such work has more to do with a simple wish to help others than with "Jesus" per se.

Speaking of "Jesus' influence" on nations today, The Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden and most other nations of northern Europe contain relatively low percentages of "Christians," yet their human rights records, their generosity, their average education levels, their quality of life, lengthy life spans, low crime rates, and low poverty rates, put the rest of the world to shame, including the far more "Christian" United States. Scandinavians also have the lowest rates of unplanned pregnancies in the world. They instituted comprehensive teaching in birth control in their schools, and it worked. The leaders of Scandinavia have a long record of working for world peace. Swedes have been in Bosnia far longer than Americans removing land mines. The leaders of Norway initiated the peace talks between the PLO and Israel.

Japan is another industrialized nation whose people have longer average life spans, higher average education levels, less poverty, lower crime rates, a lower percentage of their population in prison, and lower abortion rates than the United States. Fifty-six percent of the Japanese population "do not believe in God or a Universal Spirit or were uncertain." Compare that with the ninety percent of the U.S. population who "believe in God." (Countries that have as high a percentage of "believers in God" as the U.S. include Northern Ireland and Iran, and the country with the highest percentage of believers in God is Nigeria. Check out how blessed Nigeria is.)

Hart admits of course that many movements and organizations throughout history that have emphasized "Jesus" have also wound up promoting suspicion, fear, divisiveness, inequality, intolerance, bigotry, hatred, subjugation, persecution, slavery, torture, terrorism, and war. And I fully appreciate what Hart wrote in the midst of his review, namely that

"Skepticism and atheism are, at least in their highest manifestations, noble, precious, and even necessary traditions, and even the most fervent of believers should acknowledge that both are often inspired by a profound moral alarm at evil and suffering, at the corruption of religious institutions, at psychological terrorism, at injustices either prompted or abetted by religious doctrines, at arid dogmatisms and inane fideisms, and at worldly power wielded in the name of otherworldly goods. In the best kinds of unbelief, there is something of the moral grandeur of the prophets—a deep and admirable abhorrence of those vicious idolatries that enslave minds and justify our worst cruelties."

Thank you Mr. Hart, and also thank you for sending me that email informing me that you were "not religious." I think your readers ought to know that fact, and you also owe them perhaps a statement concerning what you DO believe and how you came to that belief.

Sincerely, Edward T. Babinski, editor of Leaving the Fold: Testimonies of Former Fundamentalists (paperback published 2003), and contributor to The Christian Delusion (published April 2010).

4.22.2010 | 8:48pm
Dan Balmat says:
@Newton A. Mines

"Deepity"! Hee hee! Love it. Close kin to "truthiness," no doubt.

4.22.2010 | 9:08pm
Crocoduck says:
This is the same old drivel that's been confusing the laity for centuries. If you want to believe in fairies go believe in fairies, but don't dress it up in flowery language and twisted logic or be offended when others find your evidence-free beliefs slightly odd and rather amusing.

Just keep it out of schools, pay your taxes, and don't expect special treatment...

Thanks.

4.22.2010 | 10:10pm
Newton A Mines says:
I note that Christian apologists very often lament that we modern atheists make little or no reference to, or use of, the works of Nietzsche. As if they're helpfully pointing out a mistake on our part: "We'd be much more afraid of your arguments, if you'd only use some Nietzsche."

The advice is meant self-servingly, of course: in any philosophical fight, Nietzsche is a guy you hope the other team will pick.

Great, witty, writer; extremely weak on argument. As a philosopher he just tended to assert things. He also ignored the light that the sciences were - even in his day - starting to throw on philosophical questions like the origins of the moral sense. I read him because he's readable, but he's got nothing cogent to say on atheism/theism.

That's why atheists don't seem to cite Nietzsche much. Someone like Russell, say, is far more use. If Christian apologists really admire Nietzsche so much, then they can have him.

4.22.2010 | 10:11pm
Michael Bone says:
@Frederick Greer
@Porphyry
@VG

So far, I've seen little of substance to counter the "shallow" comments of Steve Zara and Jack Rawlinson. Perhaps you're confusing the lack of Tillich inspired obfuscation for depth.

4.22.2010 | 10:17pm
Ye Olde Statistican says:
Tyler Durden says:
If actual evidence for god(s) existed, it could be easily verified by science.
Science has yet verified no actual evidence.
Threrefore, god(s) probably do not exist.

How's that for a logically compelling, deeply informed, morally profound, and conceptually arresting argument for not believing in god(s)??

It's none of the four. The major premise is not established. Science, as it is understood today, deals only with the abstracted properties of material bodies. It can draw no conclusions about immaterial things. The minor premise is the mirror of the God-of-the-Gaps argument. And in a proper syllogism, the synthesis does not contain the word "probably."

Responding to Mr. Gaebler, Jack Rawlinson says:
You now make a claim about "the New Atheist conception of god" being " wholly different from that of Christian philosophy" I reject that assertion, utterly.

But then he goes on to illustrate that Gaebler was right!

He then says: I described them, with justification, as the "woolly, sneaky, deliberately evasive, shape-shifter "god" of the modern "moderate" believer. "

We are in awe at this display of logic and reason. Argument by adjectives. If you call your opponent enough names, you win. Alas, empirical facts (remember those?) indicate that these were official doctrines in ancient and medieval times, well before the "moderns".

Ed says:
there may well be things that exist (for instance, so-called virtual particles) whose existence was not caused by any event.

Good. Name three. (Also, "events" do not cause things, as events are not themselves empirical "things".)

("Virtual particles" are the "Uncaused of the Gaps." Though I understand that they are caused by fluctuations in the vacuum energy. That is not really "uncaused.")

4.22.2010 | 10:20pm
Michael Bone says:
@Frederick Greer
@Porphyry
@VG

So far, I've seen little of substance to counter the shallow comments of Steve Zara and Jack Rawlinson. Perhaps you're confusing the lack of Tillich inspired obfuscation for a lack of depth.

4.22.2010 | 10:21pm
severalspeciesof says:
@Edward T. Babinski,

Bravo sir, that's no shallow comment...

4.22.2010 | 11:23pm
Dr. Erniepaul Izereckt says:
Y R believers against living an honest life without war and blood-shed???????????

4.22.2010 | 11:43pm
NakedCelt says:
"Any 'being,' [Dawkins] asserts, capable of exercising total control over the universe would have to be an extremely complex being, and because we know that complex beings must evolve from simpler beings and that the probability of a being as complex as that evolving is vanishingly minute, it is almost certain that no God exists. Q.E.D. But, of course, this scarcely rises to the level of nonsense. We can all happily concede that no complex, ubiquitous, omniscient, and omnipotent superbeing, inhabiting the physical cosmos and subject to the rules of evolution, exists. But who has ever suggested the contrary?"

Let's see if we can unpack the confusion here...
First of all, Dawkins' point is the same as that which the "Argument from Design" depends on, which is roughly that anything complex requires an explanation of its existence. This is not "the rules of evolution", nor does it require that the being in question "inhabit the physical cosmos". It is true by definition: this is what "complex" means.
That's the key here. You can take your complex creator, pull him "outside time", shove him into a separate "supernatural realm" or Platonic "World of Forms" or an unimplemented data structure or whatever you like. It still remains the case that complex beings, by definition, exist by virtue of being composed of simpler components in a highly improbable configuration. That configuration requires an explanation.
There are two explanations of complex beings. One, they were designed by still more complex beings; two, they arose by a selective process. Strictly speaking, the first is an instance of the second -- design and creativity occur by selective processes within the data-architecture of the mind.
"...and that the probability of a being as complex as that evolving is vanishingly minute" -- misses the point by almost 180 degrees. The probability of any given thing evolving is, a priori, vanishingly minute; evolution is a process of ratcheting up complexity by accumulating initially improbable mutations. It is not impossible in principle that evolution could produce something on the order of a universe-scale Creator. What is vanishingly improbable is that a universe-scale Creator should exist without having evolved from simpler beginnings.
This comment will be mirrored on RichardDawkins.net.

4.23.2010 | 12:19am
Bryan Zacharias says:
Dear Friends on both sides of this conversation,
I would like to make a humble proposal, in these days of social media and instant reply, etc. etc. While recognizing that this subject--and many like it--is of great importance, I would like to see a way of communicating that resists the temptation to "attack the person"; rather, is it not possible to "respect the person" and "attack the argument"--and attack it in such a way that the person being opposed still understands that they are, in fact, being respected?
One of the great exemplars in this regard, in my opinion, is G.K. Chesterton. Chesterton moved from agnosticism/atheism to Christian orthodoxy; many of you, atheist or Christian, will remember his story of his own journey, and that as he read the "skeptics" of his own day, he found them leading him to Faith instead of away.
But the point of Chesterton as an exemplar is that the man was deep friends with people with whom he utterly disagreed. Not only that, he and they debated the issues in public venues; and went to the pub afterwards.
I am a Christian; and regard these issues of fundamental importance. But I respect Chesterton enormously for his high regard for his friends; and they held him in similar esteem.
Come let us reason together. Can we not say "Here is what I believe, and why"; and can not the reply come "Here is where I disagree, and why"? While refraining from saying "you are an idiot" and sticking our tongues out?
I recognize that there are subjects that require greater or lesser gravity of address. Some years ago I discovered, in a university library, a book defending the practice of pedophilia. The book was handsomely mounted; it had the appearance of scholarship, with footnotes, quotations and bibliography, etc. But the subject, and its defense, was indefensible. There are things that ought not to be proposed. Nevertheless, even in that instance, it should be possible (Christianly possible) to rebut the author with the severity necessary, while still addressing him as a human being in need of redemption; as is the case with each of us.
Is it not possible to speak with civility and respect even of these matters? I believe one recent example of an effort to do this is available in the film Collision, in which Doug Wilson, Christian pastor, and Christopher Hitchens, public atheist, debate this topic in a number of venues, vigorously but without disrespect and even in good humor.
Thank you, and God bless us!
Bryan Zacharias

4.23.2010 | 12:21am
GFA says:
1) "Thus, the New Atheists’ favorite argument turns out to be just a version of the old argument from infinite regress: If you try to explain the existence of the universe by asserting God created it, you have solved nothing because then you are obliged to say where God came from, and so on ad infinitum, "

2) "The most venerable metaphysical claims about God do not simply shift priority from one kind of thing (say, a teacup or the universe) to another thing that just happens to be much bigger and come much earlier"

3) "These claims start, rather, from the fairly elementary observation that nothing contingent, composite, finite, temporal, complex, and mutable can account for its own existence,"

4) "one very well may (and perhaps must) conclude that all things are sustained in being by an absolute plenitude of actuality, whose very essence is being as such: not a “supreme being,” not another thing within or alongside the universe, but the infinite act of being itself, the one eternal and transcendent source of all existence and knowledge, in which all finite being participates."

So the atheist argument in 1) is incorrect, because that implies a regression in time and scale (2), but the actual creation (4) is an "infinite act of being", because things can't account for their own existence (3) which we can deduce from "elementary observation".

Had Hart studied the writings of Victor Stenger more diligently he might have realised that this "elementary observation" is wrong - particles pop into existence and annihilate each other all the time - its called the vacuum energy. But no matter, why let real physics get in the way of a good story - the "infinite act of being" is somehow completely different from anything that could possible be refuted with an infinite regress argument, and therefore the atheist argument is silly.

Good night. I'm off to feed the leprechauns at the bottom of my garden.

4.23.2010 | 12:41am
Carlo says:
GFA:

oh, brilliant! and how does the quantuum vacuum "account for its own existence?"

4.23.2010 | 12:49am
Matt Beck says:
This thread should really be copied into a document file and printed out on high quality paper. A decade hence, when an all-but-forgotten Richard Dawkins is mounting his last crusade to have the village vicar arrested for stepping in endangered bird droppings, we'll ba able to read and puzzle over these manifestations of that peculiar mood disorder which was the New Atheism.

4.23.2010 | 1:01am
Ranger says:
GFA,
You say, "Had Hart studied the writings of Victor Stenger more diligently he might have realised that this "elementary observation" is wrong - particles pop into existence and annihilate each other all the time - its called the vacuum energy"

But that falls prey to exactly the point Hart is making when he says, "his inability to differentiate the physical distinction between something and nothing (in the sense of “not anything as such”) from the logical distinction between existence and nonexistence renders his argument empty"

You might want to read Matt Beck's comment above which helps clarify the distinction. Of course, you might want to read the concensus of phycisists who think Stenger is a quack in terms of his cosmology as well...

4.23.2010 | 1:19am
Papalinton says:
Bryan Zacharias:

I agree; to have been smacked down, tortured, smited, burnt at the stake over the past millennia does not give non-believers (atheists, humanists, agnostics etct etc) the right to bad-mouth the religiose, nor to show them disrespect. But I think you can understand where they're coming from, from a historical perspective.

The circular arguments for the existence of gods is tiresome and wearisome. I am reminded of the Kalam Cosmological Argument (KMA) William Lane Craig formulated as follows:

1: Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2.: The universe began to exist.
3: Therefore, the universe has a cause.

And by definition that cause is god.


Well I have one that matches that argument:

1: God is love.
2: Love is blind.
3: I have an uncle that is blind.

My uncle is God.

I wish the religiose weren't so.......boorish.

4.23.2010 | 2:34am
Peter Clemerson says:
To Edward T. Babinski,

Another "Thanks" for the comment at 8.47 pm and the book references within it.

Can I also mention

1) Bruce K Waltke The Book of Proverbs and Ancient Wisdom Literature. Bibliotheca Sacra 136 (July-Sept. 1979): 211-38.


2) Pritchard, J. (1969). Ancient Near Eastern Texts relating to the Old Testament (3rd Ed.). Princeton UP

3) Mary Boyce (1979), Zoroastrians: Their beliefs and practices Routledge & Kegan Paul and many other works by Mary Boyce on Zoroastrianism which convey its influence on Judaism,

for anyone interested in finding out how much of the origins of the Judeo-Christian culture are to be found in preceding non-Judeo-Christian ones.

4.23.2010 | 2:36am
Dave Russell says:
The whole article is a great example of Dennet's (I think) 'deepity's' - lots of words that sound impressive and important but actually mean....nothing

'Wainscot Britton says:
But yet this article in all it's profound eloquence fails to answer this:

Is charity good becuase god likes it
or does god like charity because it is good.

Common, go for it!...I dare you.'

OK.

Is charity good because Santa Claus likes it
or does Santa Claus like charity because it is good.

Surely, the first step is to proof SC exists, then we can take it further into the Psycho - babble realm.

Is that good enough sir.

4.23.2010 | 3:13am
Bryan says:
Heh!

This has been one of the most entertaining comment threads I've read in a while. It is always a treat to see an author's argument proven so clearly by the very people who he writes against.

Kudos to DBH and all his wanna-be detractors!

4.23.2010 | 3:31am
Liam says:
Bryan Zacharias:

I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment. Chesterton is a great model for public debate. The problem is that neither side really seems particularly interested in the work such an approach would require. It's tough when people--theist and atheist--start spewing bile with such pretenses of authority, to try to ignore it and then act civilly. It's a daily battle for me.

And then here we are where an article has been published--in an admittedly inflammatory and unkind tone--about how terrible modern discourse is on these topics, and its met with nothing more than hail of "arguments" from so far left field that the cut-off man is can't even be seen. It's depressing as hell.

As for Hart, he's a tremendous writer, and his books (obviously) address a breadth of issues that a single article like this cannot. But even though I share a sort of guilty pleasure in his rhetorical thrashings of the New Atheists, I get the nagging feeling that a Christian should not write this way, or treat his adversaries this way. Maybe Dawkins really is a bad philosopher, but to repeatedly insult his intelligence, no matter how well-deserved, is simply to sink to his level. If the New Atheists are truly intellectually vapid, and Christianity is truly a nobler way of life, then Hart should not sling mud around like this--he should try to operate on a higher plane of civility, kindness, and respect. If he's upset at getting metaphorically slapped in the face by Dawkins, then he ought to, as we've been taught, "Turn the [metaphorical] other cheek," and "love his enemies." This won't change anyone's mind, but loving Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, Dennett, and all their fans who are posting in this thread is what we are called to do. We have to show them that Christians are better than they think we are.

Granted, this is hard. But what have we to lose? Simply insulting the New Atheists isn't going to do anything. If anything, it'll just make them more hysterical. That's very clearly what happened here. People don't respond well to criticism, atheist or theist. Insults just make people more entrenched, more hyperbolic, less rational, and widens the divide between the believers and unbelievers. It's a hard lesson to learn, I think. But I believe the reaction to Hart's article only makes it more obvious.

4.23.2010 | 3:58am
Paul says:
Personally I'm not sure that it's *such* a bad thing that atheism is dead and we only have to deal with its shadow.

4.23.2010 | 4:11am
Elliott Bignell says:
"In truth, though, there could hardly be a weaker argument. To use a feeble analogy, it is rather like asserting that it is inadequate to say that light is the cause of illumination because one is then obliged to say what it is that illuminates the light, and so on ad infinitum."

To use a slightly stronger one, it is like making this assertion in response to someone who has started with the axiom that all things must be illuminated by something else. You have completely failed to understand the strength of this argument, which is that it highlights an inconsistency in the argument from necessary cause found in its very justification. Either the existence of the Universe requires an explanation or it does not. If it does, then it is necessary to state why a Creator is not in turn subject to the need for explanation. If it does not, then any argument restgin on a need for an explanation is rendered superfluous. This is the power of the argument from infinite regress: either you admit that there is something which does not require an explanation, thus eradicating the need for a Creator to "explain" existence, or you hang onto it and thus demonstrate that you have failed to answer your own requirement. The argument is not weak but unassailable. Presumably this explains the use of a weak analogy.

One could, of course, just take the route of saying that there are things that are not subject to the need for explanation, or for a cause, and say that we will call them "God", whatever they happen to be. This is rather unanswerable until the point that you start trying to associate them with a specific religious concept using the same name, at which point you are committing a fallacy of equivocation.

4.23.2010 | 4:15am
Elliott Bignell says:
Matt Beck - The Bible says that, "The fool in his heart has said there is no God." If there was a need to insult atheists in Biblical times then there were atheists to insult. That makes us a little more than a flash in the pan. What's different today is that we can no longer be burned for it.

4.23.2010 | 4:29am
Mike says:
Which "Jesus" ?
Which "Christianity" ?

The god virus has mutated so extensively over the intervening years.

4.23.2010 | 4:43am
TheTLDR.com says:
I can't help but notice just how the comments on this article strengthen its point.

4.23.2010 | 6:46am
phauna says:
If you are looking for complex and difficult arguments then of course you will be disappointed.

I presume most religious posters on this article are Christians, but in that case why are you not Buddhists? Christians presumably reject Buddhist tenets for a variety of reasons. Now think about the Buddhists, they conversely reject the tenets of Christianity. If any religious group rejects another wholly different religion then they are atheistic towards that religion. All religious people are to a degree Atheists. Don't try to get out of it by imagining all monotheistic religions are really worshipping the same god. Polytheists scoff at monotheists who rail at non-theists (e.g. Buddhists). Why are there dead religions? Why no Zeus-love?

The simplicity of this argument does not make it any the less powerful. If you can disbelieve all religions except your own then you can just as easily reject them all.

4.23.2010 | 8:07am
severn says:
Is this a new argument for god? The argument from supercilious vacuity.

4.23.2010 | 8:18am
GFA says:
Ranger says:

"You might want to read Matt Beck's comment above which helps clarify the distinction. Of course, you might want to read the concensus of phycisists who think Stenger is a quack in terms of his cosmology as well... "

Matt Beck says:

"The physical distinction between something and nothing (in the sense of "not anything as such") differs from the metaphysical distinction between existence and nonexistence in the following, familiar way. ...

If I open up the refrigerator door and exclaim, "Hey, there's no beer in the fridge!" I am making the purely physical claim that there is not anything such as beer in the refrigerator. ... Nothing we know about the world precludes the possibility; I am just making the matter-of-fact observation that, as it so happens, there is not.

There is quite a lot of fine-grained philosophy that could be articulated here, but roughly speaking, to say in the metaphysical mood that "something exists" is just to say that that something is an *ens per se,* a necessary truth. The existence of these necessary truths is entailed by the fact of existence itself (which nobody can dispute)."

It would be called an axiom in mathematics - something that is takes as true by definition.

The whole point is that atheists are disputing your axiom or "ens per se". That "(which nobody can dispute)" IS being disputed. You have made up a story about the universe. Its just a story.
You can just obfuscate with fancy words, call it something important like "metaphysics", but it is just a story. How or why does it necessarily relate to the observable universe? That is the crux of the atheist argument. Objecting with "oh, atheists don't understand the story can't be proved, its a different type of animal" is exactly the point. Its gibbering nonsense dressed in fancy clothing.

Steger might or might not be considered a quack, but vacuum energy is well known.

Carlo says:

"oh, brilliant! and how does the quantum vacuum "account for its own existence?" "

Two apples, one apple, zero apples. There is nothing. Zero is a mathematical point on a line. When it comes to particles, zero doesn't exist. Start with nothing and something spontaneously exists. Just like metaphysics really. Take a 13th century monk with too much time on his hands and a silly story just pops into existence.

The quantum vacuum is just another story, with one very important difference - it corresponds to observable reality.

4.23.2010 | 9:16am
Sean says:
Dear Atheists,

Glad to see you all stop by, I/we hope you'll check out other features of this site and magazine and come back again. :) Yes, Hart loves the english language a bit too much, I agree. Hopefully he'll take some of your criticisms of his style to heart - he'll need to if he wants to reach a wider audience.

But to be honest, a lot of you guys' replies sound more like most of you skimmed the article with a hatchet than actually read it. That's alright. The gist of the Hart's article, more or less, is that modern atheists are wimps. Frankly, given the 20th century's history with atheism, I'd say that's probably for the best. But what's with you guys calling people 'religiose' instead of 'religious'? Is that the latest rhetorical trick from the same people who gave us 'brights'?

Also, Papalinton -

Your syllogism isn't analogous to the KMA at all. It contains some points, and connections between those points, but that's about it. It's all good. But your style's a lot like what people are complaining about Hart for. "I wish the religiose weren't so... boorish." Seriously, that's just a dork's way of trying to sound superior, nobody needs it.

Anyway, glad to see you all here! Good times. :)

4.23.2010 | 9:34am
peterbasirico says:
WOW, REFUTING THE inetelligence of 50 men. What will we do the wisdom of our 500 men in Congress?

4.23.2010 | 9:52am
keddaw says:
Nietzsche's claim that we have to remove all we have learned while being Christian when we abandon Christianity is false. We did not throw out all the techniques alchemy had when we moved onto chemistry. We take what works and abandon the junk.

I do agree that none of the New Atheists have put forwards a decent moral framework on which we should hang our society and laws (especially not Hitchens' "innate" morality claim) and that is sorely lacking.

If the scepticism claimed by the New Atheists was applied to society rather than just religion and homoeopathy I cannot see how they could come to any conclusion that wasn't pretty libertarian in its outlook. However, they mostly come out as left of centre on social/economic issues and liberal on civil liberties.

4.23.2010 | 9:57am
Alphonsus says:
Papalinton, your parody doesn't even match the logical form of Craig's argument. Craig has 2 premises (1 & 2) and a conclusion (3). The actual conclusion to your syllogism (based on your premises 1 & 2) would be "God is blind." That would have been at least formally valid. Even if we accept your 1,2, & 3 as premises (with "My uncle is God" as the conclusion), you still can't validly conclude "My uncle is God" because the quality of blindness is undistributed. Both love and your uncle might be blind, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing.

4.23.2010 | 10:04am
carlo says:
GFA:

OK, you just confirmed Hart's contention again! You seem unable to comprehend that there could be no quantum vacuum, whereas obviously there is one. This is almost comical...

4.23.2010 | 10:16am
Alphonsus says:
Aw Sean, you beat me to the punch about Papalinton's lousy parody. Darn you, post delaying comment moderation! ;)

4.23.2010 | 10:28am
Sean says:
"The god virus has mutated so extensively over the intervening years."

'The god virus'? Do you guys really talk like this? I mean, if you were sitting there across the table from a guy at a bar, and having this debate, could you really say that phrase with a straight face?

4.23.2010 | 10:32am
Sean says:
If it makes you feel any better, Alphonsus, you explained where he went wrong better than I did. :)

4.23.2010 | 12:50pm
Galen Rose says:
Now, I could be wrong, because there are a lot of very slippery words there, but it appears to me that Hart is saying that god is “being;” not “a being,” just “being.” How this definition is of any use to anyone, however, escapes me. Well, there is this, if god is "being," then I have to agree that god exists, because I surely be.

A question which occurs to me is this: if god is “being,” the whole of being and nothing but being, then why do we even need the word god? What’s wrong with simply using the word “being” to describe being? Am I unfair in suggesting that perhaps Mr. Hart has fallen back to a position of defining god as “being” just so he has something to call god? Could it be that Mr. Hart doesn’t believe in supernatural gods any more than I do?

I can’t imagine what good this god does anyone and how it would really matter whether this god existed or not, but there you have it. Of course, Hart’s god would have no more meaning to the average Christian than a third derivative or a charmed quark. It is no wonder Hart is unimpressed by the “New Atheists.” They aren’t talking about his god, nor is anyone else it seems, except him. Can you spell sophistry?

4.23.2010 | 1:01pm
DR JOHN BAILIFF says:
Evidently Hart hasn't read Nietzsche at all carefully; odd, since he approves of N's understanding. N. gives the ultimately correct reading of the attraction of Jesus' crucifixion: it represents the victim as triumphant. The crucifixion appeals to the victim-mentality that N. called "slavishness." Hence the militant aggression of historical christianity (& islam, I might add): if you're the victim, ANY action against your "oppressor" (read: opponent or non-believer) is justified. The same victim-logic which animated the crusades drives the current islamist terrorists...

4.23.2010 | 1:04pm
James Y. Tylar says:
To Galen Rose:
Actually, Mr GR, Professor Hart is referring to an understanding of God that has been the common property of philosophically developed Christian, Jewish, Pagan, Hindu, Muslim (etc.) thought for centuries on end, that has been unfolded in exquisite detail by innumerable sophisticated philosophers in all those traditions, and is in fact an entirely coherent vision of the relationship between being and the world. Why you think he should have to recapitulate arguments that are part of the universal inheritance of human thought I do not know. But your post does show that you, too, have never made the effort to discover what the traditional idea of God is, and so really haven't much to say on this matter. But, you know, pick up a basic primer on traditional metaphysics.

4.23.2010 | 1:15pm
Carlo says:
I'm amused to see that some commenters here seem to think that the atheists' comments somehow proves Hart's point. Guys guys, that borders on the delusional. Especially Darron Knutsons comment utterly destroys Hart's eloquent but shallow (which is highly ironic :D) rant. If this is what TNA are up against, I'm not the least bit worried.

4.23.2010 | 1:25pm
GFA says:
"carlo says:
GFA:

OK, you just confirmed Hart's contention again! You seem unable to comprehend that there could be no quantum vacuum, whereas obviously there is one. This is almost comical..."

Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. Euripides

There might be a quantun vacuum, there might not be. The evidence would suggest there is. Its not difficult. Metaphysics might have something to say, it might not.; there might be a "god", there might not. Again, not difficult. Now, where is the evidence?

4.23.2010 | 1:38pm
Ye Olde Statistician says:
NakedCelt says:
Dawkins' point is the same as that which the "Argument from Design" depends on, which is roughly that anything complex requires an explanation of its existence.

This agreement is why "New" Atheists and IDers sound so alike. The erroneous IDer spin on Paley-ism is one reason why Thomists tend to be critical of the whole movement.

To be fair to the IDers, they don't seem to require a designer for merely "complex" things, but for a specific kind of complexity. Of course, looking for God in this or that microbiological mechanism is like looking for Frank Whittle by carefully measuring the components of a jet engine. The error made by IDers, Dawkinsites, and others of that stripe is the same: the existence of Frank Whittle is not an engineering problem.

Hence, Aquinas (Oh, dude! He is so yesterday!) made no such argument. He did argue from the lawfulness of nature. (And distinguished carefully between nature and artifact.) That is, it was the lawfulness of nature, per se, and not the alleged "exceptions," that provided the basis for his proof. Darwin's Laws (insofar as they are laws - I've never seen the equations) would provide mild support for the existence of God by providing one more demonstration of the lawfulness and directedness of nature.

Both the IDers and the Dawkinsites are anxious to see nature as an artifact. E.g., the brain is a computer, the solar system is a clock. Genetic "engineering". And so on. They've talked up nature-as-artifact so much that both sides now confuse metaphor with fact. But behind the artifact is the niggling thought that there might be an artificer. Thus, Newton begets Paley. Aquinas on the other hand compared nature to a "divine art" and said it was "as if" a shipbuilder could give to his lumber the power to form by themselves into a ship.

NakedCelt adds:
It still remains the case that complex beings, by definition, exist by virtue of being composed of simpler components in a highly improbable configuration.

But in theology, God is conceived as irreducibly simple, and not composed of parts. Any composite being contains a mixture of actuality and potentiality. For example, a genome string actually codes for a certain protein, but potentially codes for some other protein via mutation to one or more of the codons comprising it. But in tradionally theology God is shown by deduction to be purely actual, containing no potentiality - which is why he is sometimes called Existence Itself. It makes no sense to say "Existence exists by virtue of being composed of simpler components in a highly improbable configuration." One simply says, "Existence exists."

NakedCelt concludes:
What is vanishingly improbable is that a universe-scale Creator should exist without having evolved from simpler beginnings.

Arguments from improbability also form the backbone of ID anti-Darwin arguments. It's nice to see the similarities of thought between the two schools run so close. I tend to discount arguments from improbability when made by non-statisticians. How do the atheists and IDers know how probable or improbable a given thing might be? We tend to confuse "I can't see how this could happen" with "it is a highly improbable event." But the universe need not conform itself to the state of our ignorance.

"Evolution" means that something has "flown forth from" (e volutas est). That is, new forms emerge from old forms by means of "rational seeds" or "potencies and powers" which the old forms possess, as in the case of one string of codons being potentially another string via well-known processes of mutation, deletion, addition, etc. This is simply another word for "change" and it is noteworthy that Aquinas' famous First Way is a deduction that starts with the fact of change [evolution] in the world.

"The theory of change" doesn't sound too swell, esp. since it reminds us that there are many different kinds of change, and so might be many different theories to account for it. Darwin himself knew the difference between facts and theories, even if his epigones do not. He practically never used the word "evolution" in the Origin, preferring to refer to the actual scientific theory: "natural selection."

Now, if the source of all being is Existence Itself, then it makes no sense to speak of Existence evolving from simpler beginnings, since those "beginnings" (whatever that means) would have had to exist. There can be no "natural selection" without a Nature to select things. But then, Existence would not be the source of being, and something else would cause Existence to exist, which makes no sense. Modus tollens.

Hope this helps.

4.23.2010 | 1:41pm
tonyp says:
So 50 athiests give their reasons for not beliveing in God, and this guy just dismisses tham all out-of-hand saying he found no "logically compelling, deeply informed, morally profound, or conceptually arresting argument for not believing in God." This guy has some idea of God in his head that the average person simply does not. And whatever idea it is, it is wrapped in some metaphysical blanket of flawed logic that only he understands.

"What I find chiefly offensive about them is not that they are skeptics or atheists; rather, it is that they are not skeptics at all and have purchased their atheism cheaply" - right... Does he really think these people gave so little thought to their decision? Does he disrespect their intelligence that much?

"A truly profound atheist is someone who has taken the trouble to understand, in its most sophisticated forms, the belief he or she rejects, and to understand the consequences of that rejection" He shows absolutely no respect for the authors. Why does he think they DON'T understand? Just because they don't agree with him? (What "consequences"?)

I have lived a long time, and I have never seen any evidence that gods of any kind are real. If gods exist and this guy has ANY proof at all that they do OTHER than some mish-mash of illocal arguments, I would like him to produce it. He can take all the time he wants to describe it in his next book. But he must produce something that can be seen, heard, smelled, touched, measured, weighed - whatever. If he can't do that, then he has no right to poo-poo any argument athiests make.

4.23.2010 | 1:46pm
GFA says:
Russell Blackford takes apart the god silly argument better than I can:- http://metamagician3000.blogspot.com/2010/04/marke-but-this-flea.html

Scientists use the concept of "things that might exist, or might not exist" every day. They are called hypotheses. A scientist makes up a story about something that he thinks could be true, or could exist, or could be found under certain circumstances, but also knows that it might not be true. He then designs an experiment to gather the evidence that the story is true (or false). Thus he learns something more about the nature of reality. At the start of the process the hypothesis might be true or might not. At the end of the process the truth state is more certain.

The "god" hypotheses has been hanging around for a few millenia now. Are you lot going to come up with any evidence any time soon, or are you going to keep scoffing that us atheists don't understand all you have as a hypothesis?

4.23.2010 | 1:54pm
Ye Olde Statistician says:
GFA sez:
Two apples, one apple, zero apples. There is nothing. Zero is a mathematical point on a line. When it comes to particles, zero doesn't exist. Start with nothing and something spontaneously exists.

But you aren't starting with nothing. You're starting with the vacuum energy. Particles, as mass, are equivalent to energy via e=mc^2. That is, the particles are already "there" in potency in the form of vacuum energy. Ditto, if "zero" is a point on a line, the line must exist for the zero point to exist. "Zero" is not "nothing." There is an important difference between a bank account with zero balance, and not having a bank account; between an empty glass and no glass.

GFA continues:
Just like metaphysics really. Take a 13th century monk with too much time on his hands and a silly story just pops into existence.

Aristotle was a 13th century monk? Who knew? Perhaps a bit more respect for empirical facts would be in order. Those 13th century monks came up with secondary causation, and contended that nature had powers to act on nature. Robert Grosseteste came up with the scientific method; Theodoric of Fribourg explained the rainbow by experimenting with glass bowls filled with water. But that was the real, empirical 13th century, and not the 13th century in your mind.

keddaw says:
Nietzsche's claim that we have to remove all we have learned while being Christian when we abandon Christianity is false. We did not throw out all the techniques alchemy had when we moved onto chemistry. We take what works and abandon the junk.

That's not what Nietzsche was talking about. Try reading atheist literature rather than atheist web screeds.

@Sean, Alphonse:
Amazing isn't it how often the self-proclaimed logic-and-reason folks know so little of basic logic? Papalinton did not even know (in English) that he was using two different versions of "is." First semester logic ran through a host of these kinds of fallacies. Imagine someone posting:

M. Green [like all colors] is moving at the speed of light;
m. Grass is green
Therefore: Grass is moving at the speed of light

and thinking that they have just refuted relativity!

4.23.2010 | 2:13pm
Carlo says:
GFA:
What you don't get is that quantum vacuum may or may not exist because it is a thing, i.e. a being ("ens"). Philosophically speaking, God is not "a being" or "a thing" but "Being" ("esse" not "ens" in the classical terminology). So its existence is essentially a statement about the ontological status of things (Aquinas: "in all the things we know essence does not include existence"). As such, the philosophical notion of God is strictly apophatic. This is a basic point that people figured out about 1200 AD, and that David Hart was recalling. Here you have 130 commenters who are totally clueless about these basic observations, yourself included.

I may be a fool as you say, but I am positively certain that your notion of God is superficial. As such, I congratulate you for not believing in it. Neither do I.

4.23.2010 | 2:15pm
Ye Olde Statistician says:
Galen Rose sez:
Am I unfair in suggesting that perhaps Mr. Hart has fallen back to a position of defining god as “being” just so he has something to call god?

Yes.

(It is not definitional, but a deduction from the fact of change/evolution observed in the world. See Aristotle. (Oh, he is so not today....)

I can’t imagine what good this god does anyone and how it would really matter whether this god existed or not, but there you have it.

Ah, the argument from incredulity, another old ID fixture. "I can't imagine how structure X could have evolved by natural selection" and therefore it did not. Astonishing, how often the same mind-set is replicated in both camps.

If Existence did not exist, it would matter very much....

Basically, from the existence of a being of Pure Act (aka "Existence Itself," aka "I AM") one may deduce a host of things: there can be only one; it must be immaterial; it must exist outside of space-time; it must be omnipresent; it must be all-power-full, in the sense that all natural powers have their origin in it; it must be a person; it must be all-good, in the sense that all natural goods have their origin in it; and so on.

I note, too, the post-modern tendency to replace logic/words with images. "I can't imagine how...." Well, you can't imagine a tesseract or a topological function space or [Aristotle's example] a thousand-sided polygon. But surely you can conceive of these things. It may require your intellect to reflect on perceptions and form conceptions, and that sort of considered bourgeois reflection is not popular nowadays.

4.23.2010 | 2:22pm
Carlo says:
TonyP

he thinks they don't understand because he read their book! If you read a book on atheism and observe that all their arguments have nothing to do with what serious, intelligent people mean when they talk about God, it is perfectly legitimate to conclude that these 50 people are very intellectually shallow atheists.

4.23.2010 | 2:44pm
Angela Swan says:
Mr Hart is not entitled to force me to debate my beliefs on his terms. If I see no need for a god and do not believe in one, he may not tell me that my conclusion is invalid or not worth his attention because I have not dealt with all the permutations and combinations of the concepts of god, physical and metaphysical, that have been developed or explored over the past two millennia by Christian philosophers. I simply maintain that he has to give me some reason to change my belief or to show that debates over, say, the nature of the trinity should matter to me; nothing that he has said touches on this point and no one arguing against atheism seems prepared to do this.

4.23.2010 | 2:54pm
Galen Rose says:
Statistician says,"Basically, from the existence of a being of Pure Act (aka "Existence Itself," aka "I AM") one may deduce a host of things: ... it must be a person; it must be all-good, in the sense that all natural goods have their origin in it; and so on."

How in the world do you deduce "It must be a person"? You pulled that out of the air. And, "It must be all good"? Then it must also be all evil as well because "in the sense that all natural goods [replace "goods" with "evils"] have their origin in it; and so on."

Methinks you deduce far to much from the simple fact that things exist.

4.23.2010 | 3:05pm
andrew says:
thanks to all for the discussion. just a few thoughts:

1. the widely-held atheist claim that [paraphrase] "the scientific method is the only trustworthy epistemological tool leading to truth" is itself not a claim that can be reached using the scientific method. one cannot perform an experiment and scientifically arrive at that conclusion. the claim is therefore self-defeating.

2. i think there can be some agreement concerning the following: logic exists. the human faculty called reason exists. mathematical laws exist. scientific laws exist. consciousness exists. arguably, minds exist. arguably, moral laws exist. arguably, free will exists. the upshot: i am not sure such things that evidently exist are very well explained within a framework that assumes the existence of only matter/energy (another widely-held atheist claim).

for example, atoms/energy obey scientific laws; are those scientific laws themselves made of atoms/energy? similarly, what is logic? is logic simply brain biochemistry that happens to be presumably true everywhere in the universe? how does matter become self-conscious? can matter give rise to mind? if so, how? can matter give rise to "free will" on which we can base moral culpability and praise?

3. if what we know as "human reason" is nothing more than what bertrand russell by extension calls "accidental collocations of atoms," on what basis do we trust "reason?" why should we trust "reason" to give us any real truth other than what happens to be brain biochemistry?

4. david hume writes that we have no logical reason to believe that the future will be like the past. the reason we illogically believe the future will be like the past is as follows:

a. in the past, the "future" resembled the "past"
b. therefore, in the present, the future will resemble the past

but the above argument is invalid because it assumes the conclusion -- to believe today that the future will resemble the past assumes that what happened in the past will happen in the future. this is no argument at all, which means i have no logical reason to believe, for example, that the sun will rise tomorrow.

my atheist philosophy professor who had no qualms with "consensual bestiality" (in case these things matter to any of you) called this argument the most beautiful one in the history of philosophy. i happen to think the argument is valid. per hume, therefore, science is a series of coincidences resting on an illogical assumption that the future will be like the past.

5. these comments are not proof of anything specific; i am only highlighting questions that we all face no matter our philosophical commitments. in view of these sorts of questions, i think that a god/ultimate mind hypothesis explains most of reality with the fewest assumptions.

whether this hypothesis is too sophisticated for the "deluded masses" is a matter for another time.

6. if any of us find ourselves merely intellectually masturbating through life, it would be far better for us to stop and smell the roses. literally!

4.23.2010 | 3:07pm
Assistant Village Idiot says:
Many of Hart's critics here make a point that is true, but irrelevant. He provides here very little in the way of positive arguments for God's existence, or for reasons one might believe in Him.

Well, yes. That wasn't his topic. Neither did he justify the Crusades nor address the critical problem of changes in religious architecture.

Writers are allowed to do that, you know - pick a narrow topic and discuss it in some depth. The point here is that the arguments of the New Atheists are far less solid than the arguments of the Old Atheists. He is pulling particular weeds from this year's garden. Recipes for squash are not to be expected. Protesting that one's own interest in reading was to find recipes for squash is not much to the point.

4.23.2010 | 3:15pm
Quine says:
GFA:What you don't get is that quantum vacuum may or may not exist because it is a thing, i.e. a being ("ens").
Got evidence that the quantum vacuum is a "thing"? I do not recognize that as a falsifiable proposition. Can you construct an experiment in which the quantum vacuum does not have the property of existence? How would you show that?

Those who would like to see a great presentation of a more realistic theory of nothing should watch Lawrence Krauss in this video:

http://richarddawkins.net/articles/4490

4.23.2010 | 3:16pm
John says:
Repy to ED 4/21 at 1613: There may be just as much chance that a supernova blasted out an earth-sized chunk of impure (18 carat) gold as there is that a planet with all the special attributes of earth formed and remained stable long enough for complex life to emerge (the Rare Earth hypothesis). The earth-sized gold nugget you postulate would be very rare, but by no means impossible. So, is that pretty much like your level of certitude regarding atheism?

4.23.2010 | 3:22pm
Quine says:
Ye Olde Statistician, have you ever felt the urge to sacrifice a goat to Existence Itself? (Of course, other than just eating one because you were hungry and wanted to continue to exist.)

4.23.2010 | 3:23pm
Darron Knutson says:
Sean says:

"'The god virus'? Do you guys really talk like this? I mean, if you were sitting there across the table from a guy at a bar, and having this debate, could you really say that phrase with a straight face?"

Sure. Taking the term "god virus" out of the context of Dawkins' notion of "memes" as units of cultural inheritance subject to their own process of natural selection can deprive it of its full meaning. Nevertheless, I'd say Dawkins' use of viral contagion as a metaphor for the way the idea of the Abrahamic God (the God "meme" as Dawkins calls it) spread and adapted to changing circumstances is helpful, albeit imperfect.

I can't resist putting the shoe on the other foot: if you were sitting at the same table in the bar and having this debate, would you really describe God as the "absolute plenitude of actuality," "the infinite act of being itself," or "the one eternal and transcendent source of all existence and knowledge, in which all finite being participates"? If you did, do you seriously believe that more than one in a hundred barflies would claim to have the faintest clue what you were yammering on about? If asked, could you actually provide a coherent, non-circular description or definition of what that collection of airy, empty noise actually means?

Kant said "'Being' is obviously not a real predicate; that is, it is not a concept of something which could be added to the concept of a thing." This observation, made as part of his rebuttal of the Ontological Argument for God, I think is also useful here: talk of "being" all by itself, without reference to a particular thing, is just empty nonsense.

4.23.2010 | 3:28pm
Mark D Larsen says:
"A truly profound atheist is someone who has taken the trouble to understand, in its most sophisticated forms, the belief he or she rejects, and to understand the consequences of that rejection."


Really? So... I assume that you, David B. Hart, are an atheist about the Aztec religion, because you have indeed studied its "sophisticated forms" thoroughly, including the attributes and powers of Huitzilopochtli, Tetzcatlipoca, Quetzalcóatl, Tláloc, Xipe Tótec, Chalchiuhtlicue, and all the other deities in the pantheon, the significance of each name and number date in the Tonalámatl religious calendar, and the eternal necessity of human sacrifice by cutting out the "redeemer's" beating heart --to mention only the tip of the iceberg.

What a crock of caca. As usual, when the message offends, attack the messenger. The Inquisition could have used more recruits like you.

How can you NOT be embarrassed?

4.23.2010 | 3:36pm
Quine says:
Correction to my 3:15 comment: the quote should have been from Carlo, not CFA.

Sorry.

4.23.2010 | 3:48pm
Ed says:
John wrote: "There may be just as much chance that a supernova blasted out an earth-sized chunk of impure (18 carat) gold as there is that a planet with all the special attributes of earth formed and remained stable long enough for complex life to emerge (the Rare Earth hypothesis). The earth-sized gold nugget you postulate would be very rare, but by no means impossible. So, is that pretty much like your level of certitude regarding atheism?"

John, I didn't write that it is "impossible" that any astronomical objects exist that are at least as large as earth and made entirely of 18 carat gold. Here is what I wrote: "I'm an atheist. I’ve been an atheist all my life. I think it is very unlikely that there are any Gods, because no person knows of the existence of any Gods or of any things remotely similar to Gods. Similarly, I think it VERY UNLIKELY that any astronomical objects exist that are at least as large as earth and made entirely of 18 carat gold" (emphasis added).

Moreover, it is much more likely that there are planets in the universe in addition to earth with life on them than that some astronomical objects exist that are at least as large as earth and made entirely of 18 carat gold. For I know that there is at least one planet in the universe with life on it, and there are billions and billions of planets in the known universe. In contrast, no person knows of the existence of anything remotely similar to an astronomical object that is at least as large of earth made entirely of 18 carat gold. For instance, no person knows of any object in our solar system that is as large as the planet Mercury and comprised 60 percent of 14 carat gold.

4.23.2010 | 4:10pm
CPE Gaebler says:
You know, even if defenses of religion are the "Courtier's Reply," that doesn't exclude Dawkins et. al. from making really, really bad arguments to disprove Christianity.

But Religion is obviously wrong, so it's OK to make terrible arguments! The cause is worth it! Keep waving those banners.

4.23.2010 | 4:21pm
hammond says:
As an agnostic scientist, it is the tone of these discussions that tells the whole story: my hammer is bigger than yours, and I'll prove it!

No group of scientists would ever discuss the natural world with this combination of ad hominem and tortuous (and ultimately obfuscatory) verbal topology. A debate whose main purpose is to serve truth ultimately achieves some convergence. These religious debates achieve just the opposite: a geometric divergence of opinions, each championed by a doubtlessly faithful person who is not really interested in having his beliefs discussed, just in having them prevail.

The world will be a better place when we all understand that smashing ideas with a large hammer is not the same as disproving them. And further, there really is no point in trying to prove the unprovable. Such a waste of time and talent...

4.23.2010 | 4:44pm
K Zecman says:
Mark Larsen...Well said. I toast your poignant retort. I personally have spent more time analyzing the more sophisticated forms of the fairies of Neverland and Avatar.

4.23.2010 | 4:50pm
Eric says:
Very well written article; I am glad that someone has taken the atheist dogma that religion is 'just' wrong and atheism is 'just' right to task.

However, I feel that the author has done himself somewhat of a disservice by taking the EXACT opposite view. The writing is clearly anti-atheist and in a dismissive way; though of course not on the level of Dawkins or Hitchens.

The author makes the very valid point that we MUST differentiate between the people who say "I hold my religious beliefs dear" and the people who say "I hold my religious beliefs dear AND combatitively absolute" to lump the latter with the former does a disservice to the former and religion in general. I do not think he would agree that the difference between "I am an avowed atheist" and "I am an avowed atheist and think that belief in god is foolish" is the same.

The flaw with the 'New Atheists' is IDENTICAL to the flaw with the argument put forth here; failure to identify atheism correctly, as a religious belief in and of itself.

(In the interest of full disclouse; I do not prescribe to a particular faith but do believe in God and find value in every faith I have studied).

4.23.2010 | 4:52pm
severalspeciesof says:
@Assistant Village Idiot

“[Mr. Hart is] allowed to do that, you know - pick a narrow topic and discuss it in some depth. The point here is that the arguments of the New Atheists are far less solid than the arguments of the Old Atheists.” And indeed, it is a narrow topic but, in my opinion, wasn’t discussed in depth, unless one thinks that using a lot of obtuse and sesquipedalian prose (I love that word…) counts as deep thought. It is telling, in my opinion, that in another book I read, critiquing Richard Dawkin’s “God Delusion”, one of the first complaints was that of the poor arguments that Richard used. But at least the author had the idea to explain it as the result of poor arguments from the theistic side (though no good arguments for theism were presented in that book. My apologies for not remembering what the name of the book was, or its author)…

That may be closer to the truth that many here aren’t willing to see, including Mr. Hart…

And there is one major detail that Mr. Hart seems not to have seen…

How many of these books were written for the general public (through the general public eye), vs. the ivory tower of academia that Mr. Hart seems to be from…

Believe me, if there is one thing that most of us can say with some certainty, is that if the best sellers from the ‘New Atheists’ were written in the style that Mr. Hart has written this article in, they wouldn’t have been best sellers, (regardless of the opinion of shallowness or not)…

4.23.2010 | 4:53pm
Carlo says:
Quine:

I will do that the day after you construct an experiment that shows that the only criterion for truth is falsiability through experiment.

4.23.2010 | 5:10pm
Andrew R says:
No great feats of philosophic intellectual gymnastics are required discount the verbose sophistry displayed in Mr. Harts article, or other such apologist polemics, as it's based on the unproven assumption that a Christian god exists. The whole tedious pseudo-intellectual house of cards falls apart because it has no base to stand on.
In spite of the holy books, old dead philosophers, metaphysics, solemn men in funny hats and dresses, legions of believers, cathedrals and other places of worship - no minute rebuttal is required, when it's all based on what is highly likely to be a false premise.
The king is naked ,and no detailed discussion on the fine quality of the fabric of his invisible clothes is going to hide that.

it doesn't take an in-depth knowledge of history to know that human societies invent religions and myths, in part to explain existence. To be alive at this time in history when we can know, in fairly close approximation, the truth of how we actually come to be here on this planet, in this universe after approximately 13.5 billion years is a wonderful thing.

4.23.2010 | 5:48pm
Carlo says:
severalspeciesof:

I am not sure it is the style. Based on the public schools my children attend, most people today simply are never thought in school about the history ideas and just miss 90% of Hart's references. Your observation boils down to the statement that Hitchens, Harris and Dawkins were successful because they formulated arguments that sounded convincing to a largely ignorant public. Not much of a compliment, really.

4.23.2010 | 6:02pm
Jason says:
Some of the assertions here are quite baffling.

The Christian is not an atheist with regards to the existence of other gods, he is agnostic. The Christian is holding the position that God, as revealed in the Bible, exists and to the extent that the claims of other gods do not contradict the central claims of the Bible, ie the primacy of God, they are generally ignored. I don't know if there ever was or was not a spiritual being called Thor, I simply don't care. Where there is contradiction then the Christian accepts the authority and primacy of the Christian God.

Claims that God must submit to an evolutionary explanation merely begs the question. Why? Because for the evolutionist everything must be explained by evolution. To the man equipped only with a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. The Biblical God is defined as eternal, which means without beginning. Any being, simple or complex, which has no beginning needs no explanation for its beginning.

Edward, since Christians had been debating the slavery issue from the early days of the Church, and had almost eradicated the enslavement of Christians by the end of the Medieval period, it makes no sense to assert that they did not work to eradicate it until the Enlightenment age. Albert Schweitzer was simply wrong. Likewise claims that the Mosaic code was based on the code of Hammurabi ignores the fact that there are generally accepted mores that are essential to survival. A culture that enshrined casual murder as a laudable ethic would not last too long. Taking those shared mores and saying one is dependent on the other is not a sound scholarly practise.

Claims that the recovery of Roman and Greek texts reignited intellectual progress is almost true. It was, after all, the conflict between the Christian doctrine of creation ex nihilo and the Aristotelian view that led to the rise of science (ie test everything, hold fast to that which is good) in the West. However despite their prior familiarity with Aristotle, and not suffering a plague, Islam declined while the West went on to economic supremacy. As James Hannan points out in God's Philosophers, the Enlightenment scholars were Greek fetishists who wanted to disregard everything that Aristotle would have disagreed with. If they had had their way they'd have set back science about 300 years.

Concepts of religious tolerance were already in place in the writings of Augustine and others. That they might not have been followed does not mean that the concepts were invented in the 18th century.

As for the free-thinking and homosexual founders of modern aid societies? What of it? Where did they get their ideas from? You do not find a doctrine of concern for the weak in nature. Although there may have been thinkers who conceived of universal charity in the ancient world there does not appear to have been widespread acceptance of it. Christianity, shaped by the teachings and actions of the Biblical Jesus, did manage to inspire people to self sacrifice on behalf of others. Witness the plague in Alexandria during the third century. Copying Christianity at its best does not actually provide an argument for secularism. Rather it provides a case for a return to a historical Christianity. The same could be said for any of the cases cited. Great thinkers have conceived great moral ideas, but who has actually managed to implement them?

Also, although the average Christian might not have an appreciation of the nuances of philosophical Christianity, those nuances exist. To attack the popular level of Christian understanding (which is indeed woefully inadequate) doesn't shake Christianity.

4.23.2010 | 6:04pm
Galen says:
Eric,
"The flaw with the 'New Atheists' is IDENTICAL to the flaw with the argument put forth here; failure to identify atheism correctly, as a religious belief in and of itself."

Atheism is simply the lack of a belief in a deity; no more and no less. Thus, atheism is a religion like not-collecting-stamps is a hobby and bald is a hair color.

4.23.2010 | 6:04pm
Quine says:
Hi Carlo,

You seem to misunderstand one of the most basic things about the scientific method. The method gives us a reliable way of showing that a falsifiable proposition holds up to testing. Nowhere does it say that all true propositions can be thus shown. In fact, all the future science that is going to be shown to be true is not at this time shown to be true, but that does not make it false. You could have a 50/50 test question and flip a coin resulting in a true answer. Truth can come by other means, but the problem is that we won't necessarily know it is the truth. The scientific method has no claim of exclusivity on this, but it is what we can use to get results.

Also remember that the method is most effective in cutting away what is wrong. No amount of further testing is going to show that the Earth is the center of the solar system. No amount of further testing is going to restore Newtonian gravity after Einstein. Now DNA testing of complex animals closes the door on questions of ancestry.

If you are going to propose that the quantum vacuum is a thing that could be absent somewhere while still having a "somewhere" you are going to have to tell us how we could check this, for us to take it any more seriously than anything else that could be true but we can't know (such as Russell's Teapot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot).

4.23.2010 | 7:04pm
John says:
Ed, you do me the honor of a thoughtful response. Humbly, I pray that God bless you and everyone you love.

4.23.2010 | 7:50pm
Mr. Deity says:
I'm hardly surprised that a theist would prefer the agonized Atheism of Nietszche to that of Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, et al. But Nietszche had good reason to agonize over his Atheism, and be suspicious of science — inexperience.
Having been deeply religious, I too agonized when I left religion for Atheism. I understood that I would be losing the meaning, comfort, and moral direction which religion had given me. The thought of trading that in for Neitszche's abyss was quite terrifying.
Then I discovered the freedom and beauty of a life liberated from dogma. I discovered the peace of being able to simply and fully accept the findings of science without having to do the mental/emotional gymnastics necessary to twist and mangle all new data to fit my theology. I no longer had to compromise my integrity by saying that I believed things which I didn't believe. And I realized that whatever comfort I took from religion was more than offset by the disturbing incongruities of believing in a God who loved us but ordered genocide, the murder of homosexuals, non-virgins, Sabbath-breakers, disobedient children, those who believed in another God, or (worst of all) would punish people who simply could not believe, with an eternity of torment.
Nietszche's concerns were understandable. He lived at a time when it was believed that people could not be good without God, and that the tenuous fabric of civilization was held together only by the fear of Almighty God. But in the 120 years since Nietszche, the secular ideals enshrined in the American constitution, suppressing the religious dogma which inevitably lead to inquisition and witch hunts (reaffirmed today throughout the Islamic world), succeeded in ways Nietszche couldn't have imagined. And the scientism which Nietzsche feared gave way to a vital, productive science which put the notion of "revealed knowledge" to shame with its demonstrative and explanatory power — curing disease, replacing our mythical origins with the unifying principle of evolutionary biology, and launching mankind into worlds beyond our own.
The New Atheist's would be fools to wallow in the 120 year-old, fear-based pessimism of Nietszche. The empirical case is closed. People CAN be good without God. The fabric of society does not rip apart as we free ourselves from superstition. The sky does not fall. The emperor is in fact naked, and paying attention to that man behind the curtain has been the best thing we've ever done.
As is typical of theistic conservatism, Mr. Hart romanticizes the past (how strange tough to romanticize Nietszche's pessimism). This fear of the new, and clutching at gloom render him entirely clueless regarding the optimism of the New Atheism — as his essay demonstrates. In his feeble attempt to understand, he confabulate trues science and scientism, and misinterprets exuberance as a lack of depth. But no one should be surprised by the futility of a theist's attempt to comprehend the joy of the New Atheism. The provincial mind of the monotheist cannot comprehend the embrace of any other way — especially one diametrically opposed to its own. Nor can the monotheist understand how such an incompatible view can be anyone's "good news."
Perhaps Mr. Hart is right about Dawkins, Harris, et al. not understanding the "significance" of the loss, having never been fully committed to a religion. But it is equally apparent that Mr. Hart is likewise hamstrung by his theism. Having never embraced the New Atheism, he is incapable of understanding the significance of what is gained by people like me who know exactly what we've elected to turn away from.

4.23.2010 | 8:16pm
Papalinton says:
To: Sean, 9.16am

Alphonsus, 9.57am

That is my point, in drawing a matching response to Craig's Kalam Cosmological Argument (KMA). Both are silly. The KMA has been refuted so many times on many levels and yet he persists in trotting out the old argument time and again. As does David Hart.

How can one expect to debate the existence of a god when its definition is capable of morphing into all forms possible. So Hart's god is now simply..."being." And if we atheists argue against a different definition for a god, then we are accused of missing the point of his article. This god-being shape-shifts quicker than a chameleon on steroids.

To: Angela Swan 2.44pm

I very much share your sentiment. The religiose have had two thousand years to get their story right; to demonstrate that those that are immersed in the moral, ethical and spiritual tenets of their religion (christianity in this case) are a cut above the rest of humanity. What we witness, however, are never-ending petty but dangerous, futile, tribal and internecine squabbles about who's god is the one true, most compassionate, most loving, most caring, most forgiving, most just, etc etc ad infinitum.

I'm tired of it. For goodness sake, two thousand years and the same old story.
And perhaps the answer lies in what David Eller writes:

"....religions do not and cannot progress the way that, say, science can progress. When science progresses, it abandons old and false ideas. Once we discovered oxygen and the principles of combustion, we stopped thinking that there was a substance called phlogiston. Once we discovered that the earth is round, we stopped thinking that it is flat. Science and reason are SUBSTITUTIVE and ELIMINATIVE: new ideas replace old ideas. Religion is ADDITIVE and/or SCHISMATIC: news ideas proliferate alongside old ideas. For instance, the development of Protestantism did not put an end to Catholicism, and the development of Christianity did not put an end to Judaism. With science, we get BETTER. With religion, we get MORE."

I really can't put it any more succinctly than that.

(David Eller's book: ISBN: 978-1-57884-002-1)

4.23.2010 | 8:21pm
Mark says:
Hart, like Karen Armstrong and a wide range of the theologically informed, claims that God is the ground of all Being, Being itself, fundamentally simple, above time, the foundation of all existence itself, and not something that is a being amongst beings. God is the premise to which all other things are consequences. I could go on, but this is it in a nutshell. Yes, I studied theology too.

What Hart et al are describing here is an equation. They are talking about Einstein's dream of the Unified Field Theory, the basis for all reality. Substitute this for Hart's use of the word God, and everything he says becomes clear.

But no one worships an equation. No one prays to an equation. People pray to A Being, a conscious entity that exists in time and can respond to their needs as they arise, a being that exists and works in time. Nor is this out of keeping with the God of the Bible--there is not a single hint that any of the New or Old Testament writers understood God in any other way. That came later, as Christians rose to prominence and encountered arguments from the educated ancients to their beliefs. In response, they created a God so remote that it could escape these objections. A God so remote that it was unfalsifiable. Indeed, a God so remote that it was irrelevant.

In a debate between atheists and believers, a newspaper recently put Dawkins up against Karen Armstrong, who advanced the same arguments as Hart. A Baptist minister responded, asking why the debate was held between two atheists--because, by the standards of the vast majority of Christians, Armstrong is an atheist. So is Hart. His definition of God does not match that of 99% of the believers who have ever lived. Any consciousness is a process, a function of time. The God that people pray to is conscious. They may conceive it as immortal and eternal, but it cannot be unchanging, because consciousness is change. And any being that acts in time, that can respond to prayers, must be affected by time, otherwise it could not act. No one, not even Hart, prays to the God that he describes here.

So, I propose a new category of atheists: the Newfangled Atheist--the atheist who, in his rambling rationalizing sophistry, has reached the point of atheism and does not know it. The reason that Hart's position cannot be refuted by the atheists is that it is essentially the same as theirs. Furthermore, I would recommend to Hart not Nietzsche , but Socrates. Nietzsche accepted the premise that without God there was no meaning--a premise without philosophical, experiential, or historical support. Hart would no doubt like to harp on that old canard about Stalin, Hitler, and Pol Pot being atheists, forgetting that Hitler was a Catholic and that Stalin and Pol Pot were Communists, a rival dogma which was itself a religion through Marx by way of Hegel, whose Philosophy of Spirit was more properly theology, and who gave us the doctrine of historical inevitability, the primary metaphysical prop of Communism. I recommend Socrates because he is a simple introduction to philosophy, because he had a gift for unmasking the true beliefs of his adversaries, and because he specialized in debunking sophists like Hart.

4.23.2010 | 8:50pm
Sean says:
Darren,

"I can't resist putting the shoe on the other foot: if you were sitting at the same table in the bar and having this debate, would you really describe God as the "absolute plenitude of actuality," "the infinite act of being itself," or "the one eternal and transcendent source of all existence and knowledge, in which all finite being participates"? If you did, do you seriously believe that more than one in a hundred barflies would claim to have the faintest clue what you were yammering on about? If asked, could you actually provide a coherent, non-circular description or definition of what that collection of airy, empty noise actually means?"

I would probably use "the one eternal and transcendant source of all existence and knowledge, in which all finite being participates." That shouldn't be too hard to get, though I wouldn't bother bringing it up with my construction worker buddies. I don't see what's wrong with that or in what way it constitutes "airy, empty noise".

4.23.2010 | 9:11pm
Mr. Deity says:
I'm hardly surprised that a theist would prefer the agonized Atheism of Nietszche to that of Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, et al. But Nietszche had good reason to agonize over his Atheism, and be suspicious of science — inexperience.
Having been deeply religious, I too agonized when I left religion for Atheism. I understood that I would be losing the meaning, comfort, and moral direction which religion had given me. The thought of trading that in for Neitszche's abyss was quite terrifying.
Then I discovered the freedom and beauty of a life liberated from dogma. I discovered the peace of being able to simply and fully accept the findings of science without having to do the mental/emotional gymnastics necessary to twist and mangle all new data to fit my theology. I no longer had to compromise my integrity by saying that I believed things which I didn't believe. And I realized that whatever comfort I took from religion was more than offset by the disturbing incongruities of believing in a God who loved us but ordered genocide, the murder of homosexuals, non-virgins, Sabbath-breakers, disobedient children, those who believed in another God, or (worst of all) would punish people who simply could not believe, with an eternity of torment.
Nietszche's concerns were understandable. He lived at a time when it was believed that people could not be good without God, and that the tenuous fabric of civilization was held together only by the fear of Almighty God. But in the 120 years since Nietszche, the secular ideals enshrined in the American constitution, suppressing the religious dogma which inevitably lead to inquisition and witch hunts (reaffirmed today throughout the Islamic world), succeeded in ways Nietszche couldn't have imagined. And the scientism which Nietzsche feared gave way to a vital, productive science which put the notion of "revealed knowledge" to shame with its demonstrative and explanatory power — curing disease, replacing our mythical origins with the unifying principle of evolutionary biology, and launching mankind into worlds beyond our own.
The New Atheist's would be fools to wallow in the 120 year-old, fear-based pessimism of Nietszche. The empirical case is closed. People CAN be good without God. The fabric of society does not rip apart as we free ourselves from superstition. The sky does not fall. The emperor is in fact naked, and paying attention to that man behind the curtain has been the best thing we've ever done.
As is typical of theistic conservatism, Mr. Hart romanticizes the past (how strange tough to romanticize Nietszche's pessimism). This fear of the new, and clutching at gloom render him entirely clueless regarding the optimism of the New Atheism — as his essay demonstrates. In his feeble attempt to understand, he confabulate trues science and scientism, and misinterprets exuberance as a lack of depth. But no one should be surprised by the futility of a theist's attempt to comprehend the joy of the New Atheism. The provincial mind of the monotheist cannot comprehend the embrace of any other way — especially one diametrically opposed to its own. Nor can the monotheist understand how such an incompatible view can be anyone's "good news."
Perhaps Mr. Hart is right about Dawkins, Harris, et al. not understanding the "significance" of the loss, having never been fully committed to a religion. But it is equally apparent that Mr. Hart is likewise hamstrung by his theism. Having never embraced the New Atheism, he is incapable of understanding the significance of what is gained by people like me who know exactly what we've elected to turn away from.

4.23.2010 | 9:11pm
Nancy Marie says:
Thank you for this refutation of Dawkins, Hitchens, and their legion of anti-theists - most of whom possess an education in theology that ended at approximately age 13, yet have become the self-proclaimed spokesmen for the refutation of any and all arguments supporting religion in general and specifically the Judeo-Christian faith. The God they reject, they do not know. How sad, because He loves them so much. Pray for them, and pray also for all people of faith who are increasingly being demonized and/or marginalized by their strident voices.

4.23.2010 | 9:43pm
Peter Clemerson says:
To Kiddaw at 9.52 am

You are right, I think, to say that skeptics/sceptics "mostly come out as left of centre on social/economic issues and liberal on civil liberties". Here's some sort of explanation from the Centre for Inquiry's web site. http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=main&page=affirmations

The Affirmations of Humanism:
A Statement of Principles

* We are committed to the application of reason and science to the understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.
* We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, to seek to explain the world in supernatural terms, and to look outside nature for salvation.
* We believe that scientific discovery and technology can contribute to the betterment of human life.
* We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian elites and repressive majorities.
* We are committed to the principle of the separation of church and state.
* We cultivate the arts of negotiation and compromise as a means of resolving differences and achieving mutual understanding.
* We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and with eliminating discrimination and intolerance.
* We believe in supporting the disadvantaged and the handicapped so that they will be able to help themselves.
* We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race, religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of humanity.
* We want to protect and enhance the earth, to preserve it for future generations, and to avoid inflicting needless suffering on other species.
* We believe in enjoying life here and now and in developing our creative talents to their fullest.
* We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence.
* We respect the right to privacy. Mature adults should be allowed to fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, to exercise reproductive freedom, to have access to comprehensive and informed health-care, and to die with dignity.
* We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity, honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences.
* We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We want to nourish reason and compassion.
* We are engaged by the arts no less than by the sciences.
* We are citizens of the universe and are excited by discoveries still to be made in the cosmos.
* We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking.
* We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others.
* We believe in optimism rather than pessimism, hope rather than despair, learning in the place of dogma, truth instead of ignorance, joy rather than guilt or sin, tolerance in the place of fear, love instead of hatred, compassion over selfishness, beauty instead of ugliness, and reason rather than blind faith or irrationality.
* We believe in the fullest realization of the best and noblest that we are capable of as human beings.


Perhaps a bit motherhood-ish and the phrase "moral excellence" is a bit ambiguous, leaving a lot open to debate. However, these affirmations and the values underlying them do go some way to meeting Hart's point about what would replace religiously based morality and values if religion is one day left behind.

The left of centre inclination is reflected in "supporting the disadvantaged", nourishing..... compassion" and "fairness in society" statements. Libertarianism, as I understand it, enables gross inequities to arise and be perpetuated. Because these offend the majority of people. libertarians are condemned to remain a small minority.

Of course, according to Hart these affirmations are "the tenuous vestiges of Christian morality that they have absurdly denominated “humanism"'. Mocking them as absurd is OK if the mocker can point to something else claimed to be superior. I appreciate the comments above that Hart was actually only writing a book review, but even so, one could reasonably have expected at least a pointer to something superior. Like so many other critics of Hart, I am still waiting for one, either from Hart himself or any of his defenders.

4.23.2010 | 11:18pm
severalspeciesof says:
@Carlo

You said: "Your observation boils down to the statement that Hitchens, Harris and Dawkins were successful because they formulated arguments that sounded convincing to a largely ignorant public. Not much of a compliment, really. "

Well, actually that wasn't my observation (which may be my fault since I apparently didn't make that clear) so much as the author of the book (I finally remembered the name) "Answering the New Atheism..." had. It can be summed up with this quote:

"Even more disturbing, the lack of quality in the atheist fare may all too regrettably be a sign of a corresponding lack of quality in arguments offered by theists, or at least a lack of sufficient intellectual preparation on the part of the audience." (From the introduction, page 2)

Yet in the book the above quote appears in, it offered very little IMO, quality arguments FOR theism, as is such the case with the article by Mr. Hart. But in fairness at least Mr. Hart didn't proclaim that he would...

Which is a shame...

Indeed, that is the crux of why I am here. I had at least thought that there would be something to chew on on the side of theism, only to be told, by superfluous words that (paraphrasing Mr. Hart): 'I don't think the new atheists are arguing very well, and that the new atheists have potentially destructive ramifications' or something like it...

4.24.2010 | 12:05am
Erika says:
danny makes the excellent point that this article seems to be as empty of content as the authors that it is condemning.

I also find it highly amusing that one could lift large parts of this essay almost directly into an essay condemning the vast majority of current Christian thought (particularly current Christian popular thought). Hart says as much himself near the beginning, when he says,

"For one thing, it seems obvious to me that the peculiar vapidity of New Atheist literature is simply a reflection of the more general vapidity of all public religious discourse these days, believing and unbelieving alike."

But he seems to forget it throughout the rest of the piece.

4.24.2010 | 1:09am
Darron Knutson says:
@Sean

You say that the concept of "the one eternal and transcendent source of all existence and knowledge, in which all finite being participates" isn't "too hard to get" and assert it isn't mere empty noise. It may not be "too hard to get" for you, but I'm one of those shallow, unsophisticated atheists that try Hart's patience so badly and thus am unable to extract any worthwhile meaning from that phrase. For me, those words truly are empty noise. So, could you help me out and give me some concrete description of what it means that isn't just another circular reference to some variant of "being" or "existence" and amounts to more than "that which is needed to 'ground' finite, contingent reality"? Otherwise I'll just go on thinking that phrases like that are no more than cheap "Get Out Of Jail Free" cards.

4.24.2010 | 1:24am
Michael Fugate says:
Ye Olde claims that NAs are like IDers, but they are not. IDers will never name their designer (in public at least) nor describe how their designer designs. In other words, they won't operationally define variables so their hypotheses cannot be tested.
Dawkins and other NAs have tried to take the writings of theists at face value and test their hypotheses against the data, but he is told that almost all believers don't understand the faith in which they profess. Their understanding of religion and gods is all wrong. How does it become Dawkins fault that 99% of believers don't understand their own religion? Shouldn't Hart and the other commentators defending him be blaming seminaries and not atheists?

4.24.2010 | 1:40am
M. Trouver says:
Imagine the Grand Unified Theory in all its glory. Particles, forces, etc--all brought simply and elegantly together; matter clearly explained.

How does the explanation of matter explain the explanation of matter? How can mere physical explanations explain themselves?

Assume the GUT explains particles, molecules, organs, brains, electro-chemical interactions in our heads, everything like that--assume even that my thought "objects in motion tend to stay in motion" can be perfectly mapped to a collection of neurons. You might argue that this is how the GUT will explain the theory itself, by talk of the mental states of humans which map to neurons which map to particles, etc.

So, on this account, our thoughts about the GUT, by hypothesis, are reducible to brain states. (Few contemporary philosophers think that though, even among atheists. Let's assume it anyway, since it does seem to be believed.)

The question is this: Can an account of the electro-chemical interactions of our brains account for the physical laws of the universe?

It may account for how we understand those laws; or talk of our evolutionary advantages as sophisticated primates may help explain why we could think such thoughts at all.

But the laws themselves--whatever they be--is it possible to explain their existence by talk of atoms?

Put finally: Is it possible to explain the rules that govern the behavior of atoms by talk of atoms? (A more familiar example: Are the rules for playing chess themselves chess pieces? If so, how do you move them?)


Please, please, don't attack me. I mean it. I can only deal with kindness and arguments. Dismiss me, don't respond, mock me with your friends, just please don't attack me here. (This is seriously not a joke. I love to discuss but the heat of dialectic is too much for my poor constitution, scarce half made up as I am, and that lamely and unfashionable.) Think of me as the fool to the discussion, the jester at the outer doors, voice booming but hollow and empty--and likely unheeded, as every jester is.

And if you insist on attacking or mocking me, please use another language. That way I won't know.


Oh, and by the way:

"Believing in something without evidence is childish, irrational and intellectually weak."

What about that claim itself? Please present non-circular arguments or evidence for the claim that it is irrational to hold any belief without evidence. Of old (in Vienna in the '30s) they called this verificationism. Oh, to be young again!

4.24.2010 | 1:53am
Ye Olde Statistician says:
Elliott Bignell says:
"it is like making this assertion in response to someone who has started with the axiom that all things must be illuminated by something else. You have completely failed to understand the strength of this argument, which is that it highlights an inconsistency in the argument from necessary cause found in its very justification."

Not if you think that {all things must be illuminated by something else} is analogous to the cosmological argument. You only prove Dr. Hart's point that the critics do not seem to understand the arguments they think they are refuting.

Carlo says:
"I'm amused to see that some commenters here seem to think that the atheists' comments somehow proves Hart's point."

See above for empirical example.
+ + +

Galen Rose says:
"Statistician says,'Basically, from the existence of a being of Pure Act (aka "Existence Itself," aka "I AM") one may deduce a host of things: ... it must be a person; it must be all-good, in the sense that all natural goods have their origin in it; and so on.'

How in the world do you deduce "It must be a person"? You pulled that out of the air. And, "It must be all good"? Then it must also be all evil as well because "in the sense that all natural goods [replace "goods" with "evils"] have their origin in it; and so on." Methinks you deduce far to much from the simple fact that things exist."

a) Not from that they exist, but from that they change/evolve.

I'm going to have to condense considerably here....

b) Preliminary note: A cause must have something in it of the effect, either formally or eminently. "Formally" means the cause has the effect in the same form. A torch can cause a fire because it is already on fire itself. "Eminently" means it has the effect in some analogous or prior sense. A match can cause a fire because the phosphorus has the potential for ignition. With that in mind:

c) Given that, secundum argumentum, prior proofs have established that a being of Pure Act (BPA) must exist, and that therefore there can be only one, then all causal chains must originate in it. This includes the causal chain that produces the rational _anima_. Therefore, there is something in the BPA that is analogous to rationality; i.e., to intellect and volition. But a person is simply a rational being. QED.

d) You cannot substitute "evils" for "goods" because "evils" are not things, like "goods" are things. An evil is _defectus boni_, a deficiency or lacking of a good. The good is what all beings desire. For example: life is a good. Death, which is a lack of life, is an evil. But the lack of a thing is not itself a thing. (If you lack a walnut you don't somehow have something in your hand called a not-walnut.) So, while it's possible to conceive of life without death, it is not possible to conceive of death without life. An evil is then not a separate and distinct thing, but is a condition parasitic on the good, in that it cannot exist separately from the good. But if it does not exist per se, then there is no need to suppose its creation. Only an actual existant needs be accounted for.

I think you have been misled by modernist dualism and reification. To the notion that every thing has its "twin" and both partake of existence equally and independently, we add the notion that because you can imagine a thing, the universe is obligated to produce it. This goes back to the critical distinction between zero and nothing, mentioned earlier.

These arguments have been around in some cases longer than Christianity has. You may not buy them -- and I may have tried to condense my own poor understanding a wee too much -- but that is no reason to remain oblivious to what they are. We're talking about the foundational concepts of Western civilization before its collapse.

4.24.2010 | 1:57am
Ye Olde Statistician says:
Darron Knutson says:
"Taking the term "god virus" out of the context of Dawkins' notion of "memes" as units of cultural inheritance subject to their own process of natural selection can deprive it of its full meaning."

There are no "units" of cultural inheritance any more than there are "units" of ocean currents. Midgley thoroughly demolished "memes" some while back. "Memes" are simply an attempt to piggy back on an actual scientific concept (genes), but without doing the hard work of Mendel and his successors. Proof by metaphor! The soft sciences have always suffered a bit from physics-envy, and look at the success the hard sciences had with "atoms"! Alas, 19th atomism caught on in biology well after 20th century physics left it behind.

Amazing what invisible entities some folks believe in.

4.24.2010 | 5:14am
Kevin Voges says:
An early quote from one of those pesky "new" atheists:
“We have heard talk enough. We have listened to all the drowsy, idealess, vapid sermons that we wish to hear. We have read your Bible and the works of your best minds. We have heard your prayers, your solemn groans and your reverential amens. All these amount to less than nothing. We want one fact. We beg at the doors of your churches for just one little fact. We pass our hats along your pews and under your pulpits and implore you for just one fact. We know all about your mouldy wonders and your stale miracles. We want a this year's fact. We ask only one. Give us one fact for charity. Your miracles are too ancient. The witnesses have been dead for nearly two thousand years.”
Robert Green Ingersoll, "The Gods" (1872)

4.24.2010 | 5:19am
Kevin Voges says:
Sorry, couldn’t resist another “new” atheist quote:
“The doctrine that future happiness depends upon belief is monstrous. It is the infamy of infamies. The notion that faith in Christ is to be rewarded by an eternity of bliss, while a dependence upon reason, observation and experience merits everlasting pain, is too absurd for refutation, and can be relieved only by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance, called "faith." What man, who ever thinks, can believe that blood can appease God? And yet, our entire system of religion is based upon that belief. The Jews pacified Jehovah with the blood of animals, and according to the Christian system, the blood of Jesus softened the heart of God a little, and rendered possible the salvation of a fortunate few. It is hard to conceive how the human mind can give assent to such terrible ideas, or how any sane man can read the Bible and still believe in the doctrine of inspiration.”
Robert Green Ingersoll, The Gods

4.24.2010 | 5:26am
Kevin Voges says:
This guy’s good!
“We are satisfied that there can be but little liberty on earth while men worship a tyrant in heaven.”
Robert Green Ingersoll, "The Gods" (1872)

See http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/ingersoll.htm for a nice selection.

4.24.2010 | 7:35am
Peter West says:
"On matters of simple historical and textual fact", "crowded with errors", let's have a look at this. "Clitoridectomy is a widespread cultural tradition of sub-Saharan Africa, but it belongs to no particular creed."

According to Mark Durie, writing in "The Third Choice: Islan, Dhimmitude and Freedom", © February 2010 Mark Durie, ISBN 978-0-9807223-0-7, (Australian imprint), "Female circumcision is widely practiced in the Islamic world, but not equally in all regions. It is practiced, for example, in Egypt, southern Arabia, Bahrain, Kurdistan (but not among Iraqi Arabs), Somalia, northern Sudan, Brunei, Malaysia, and Indonesia.
...
The Acehnese in Indonesia were Hindus before converting to Islam, yet they practice female circumcision, while Indian Muslims, who also converted out of Hinduism, do not generally follow the practice.
The simple explanation... is that, while all four schools of Sunnit Islam allow the proctice, it is only the Shafi`i school which makes it mandatory. ... In this case, ... belief ... determines behaviour, not perfectly, but to a very significant degree." p 13

Durie, on pages 74-79, has a long discussion of the vigour of the current debate within certain areas of Islam concerning clitoridectomy, and on pages 63 and 64, an example of mistranslation of the Sharia manual, Reliance of the Traveller, in respect of female circumcision.

Pages numbers refer to the Australian imprint. The international imprint is from Deror Books, ISBN 978-1-926800-00-4.

4.24.2010 | 8:48am
Carlo says:
Quine:

we are completely talking at cross-purposes, so we better stop. My point was that the scientific method is completely irrelevant to the questions being discussed. And I say that as a professional scientist with a 15 year record of peer-reviewed publications. Since you clearly think that rationality coincides with the scientific method, and I think that to be absurd, I propose that we can just leave it there.

4.24.2010 | 10:52am
James says:
Statistician said:

"A cause must have something in it of the effect, either formally or eminently."

This highly jargonized and archaic conception of causality has no connection to how the world actually works. Therefore, it cannot do the work you want it too. Nice try though!

And concerning good and evil. I could just as easily define "good" as lacking evil. Meh.

You may find that this medieval lingo somehow shores up your superstitious beliefs, but playing word games is no guide to reality. Also, you should not expect these word games to persuade anyone with a modicum of scientific training.

4.24.2010 | 11:28am
Outs says:
All these exasperated comments just reflect that you hit the nail on the head. Mr. Hart.
Complimenti!

4.24.2010 | 2:26pm
Michael Fugate says:
If 99% of Christians employ a cataphatic theology describing who God is rather than who God is not, then whose fault is it that Dawkins and other NAs seek evidence of such a God? Isn't the problem that 99% of Christians don't understand their own religion? Seems like Hart should be complaining to seminaries and thanking the NAs for pointing out a major flaw in training of priests and pastors.

Also if an apophatic theology was determined to be correct in the 12th century, why have the majority of Christians never heard of it? Given that the Bible was neither translated into the vernacular nor widely read until the 16th century, why didn't Church leaders update the text to make it more in line with their theological insights? Did they think God wrote it or told someone what to write and they couldn't change the text? If so, does this mean God doesn't understand God?

4.24.2010 | 3:16pm
Quine says:
Carlo said: "Since you clearly think that rationality coincides with the scientific method, and I think that to be absurd, I propose that we can just leave it there."

I am sorry if you misunderstood me as I don't consider that "rationality coincides with the scientific method" but rather that the method is a proper subset of rationality (epistemology, specifically). As a scientist, I am sure you have read Popper and Kuhn on this.

4.24.2010 | 3:28pm
Quine says:
James said:
[Statistician said:

"A cause must have something in it of the effect, either formally or eminently."

This highly jargonized and archaic conception of causality has no connection to how the world actually works. Therefore, it cannot do the work you want it too. Nice try though!]

Thanks, James, you got there first. I was going to run him around trying to justify this in explaining the observer effect in the famous double-slit experiment, or particle decay, or quantum entanglement, or worked backward through the problem of turbulence. Oh well, perhaps I will go do something constructive, instead.

4.24.2010 | 5:09pm
Carlo says:
Quine:

good, we agree on that, it is a subset. I go further and maintain that it is a subset completely useless in facing the questions discussed here.

4.24.2010 | 5:25pm
John says:
I think that the comments prove that too many people have too many degrees in useless sciences and even more useless liberal arts. Too bad the universities and or schools that you attended never taught and never will teach you humility.

To my fellow Christians remember "if the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore, the world hates you." (John 15:18-19)

4.24.2010 | 6:59pm
Ye Olde Statistician says:
Quine says:
"I do not recognize [the quantum vacuum] as a falsifiable proposition. Can you construct an experiment in which the quantum vacuum does not have the property of existence? How would you show that?"

A cosmologist friend answers:
If vacuum is interpreted in the classical sense, that may be the case. But the classical definition of vacuum is incompatible with the predictions of quantum mechanics. In the quantum field theory, uncertainty principles predict existence and oscillation of virtual particles at every point in space-time. This is the consequence of the so-called second quantization, i. e. application of canonical quantization to quantum states. Some manifestations of these oscillations are effects such as Casimir effect, Lamb shift, and van der Waals bonds. Although averaging over these oscillations have zero-value expectation for almost all ordinary properties of particles, there is an exception. That exception is the energy associated with simple harmonic motion of virtual particle-antiparticle pairs at each point in the space-time. And this is the energy that has been called vacuum energy. One consequence of these virtual pairs that are produced and annihilated immediately is the evaporation of energy from black holes predicted by Steve Hawking. That is, he predicted that black holes are not really black but gray. That is they lose energy. **Thus one can check, in principle, for radiation loss by black holes. If one can show that black holes don’t lose energy, the vacuum energy is falsified.**

But I suppose James and others will complain about the "highly jargonized" explanation. "Jargon" usually means "I don't know that word or its usage."
+ + +
Re: "A cause must have something in it of the effect, either formally or eminently."

James says:
This highly jargonized and archaic conception of causality has no connection to how the world actually works. Therefore, it cannot do the work you want it too.

You can more easily establish that it "has no connection to how the world actually works" by simply citing counterexamples rather than argument from [your own] authority. Show me something physical that causes physical motion without itself being in motion, either formally or potentially. [Motion is the change from potentially something to actually something.] The electrical motion of neurons imparts an electrical motion to the motor nerves, which impart a mechanical contraction or expansion to muscles, which impart mechanical motion to the arm, which physically moves the hand, which moves the cue stick, which strikes the cue ball, which... The motion of photons strike the leaf, which moves the chlorophyll to produce sugars, which... You get the picture. Cite an example where the passage from potency to act is not already in the cause. A cause cannot give anything that it does not already have.

James also says:
"concerning good and evil. I could just as easily define "good" as lacking evil."

You could, but you would be wrong. It's not symmetric. Try to conceive of death without conceiving of life and you will grasp the distinction between a thing as such and a deficiency in that thing. There cannot be a deficiency without the thing. Dude, it's okay. **It was Greek rationalists who came up with this, not those icky Christians.** So you can safely acknowledge it without contracting cooties.

James concludes
"you should not expect these word games to persuade anyone with a modicum of scientific training."

No surprise. Scientific training seldom includes competency in philosophy or the humanities. Instead, one often finds the generalized contempt we associate with ignorance of the other. Hence, the belief that they are dealing with "word games." Heck, you can find physicists who regard biologists as not "real" scientists. Generally, scientific training focuses on the careful measurement of physical bodies; and some assume that this bestows competency to do metaphysics. A few -- Duhem, Heisenberg, Shroedinger, Poincare, et al. -- do manage to break out. Interestingly, they tend more often to be physicists.
+ + +

Michael Fugate says:
"If 99% of Christians employ a cataphatic theology describing who God is rather than who God is not, then whose fault is it...? [Ans: Ultimately, the Duke of Saxony - YOS] Also if an apophatic theology was determined to be correct in the 12th century, why have the majority of Christians never heard of it? Given that the Bible was neither translated into the vernacular nor widely read until the 16th century, why didn't Church leaders update the text to make it more in line with their theological insights?"

Cataphatic. Apophatic. Careful, or James will accuse you of jargon.

Also, where do you get your 99% or do you just make up your statistics? I ask as a professional in the field.

Can you imagine what "99%" of folks employ regarding quantum physics? I would not expect the "new" atheists to understand traditional theology, because they are mostly fundamentalists with a minus sign instead of a plus sign. (Dawkins is a Calvinist who translates "original sin" as "selfish gene" and "predestination" as "genetic determination.") They argue against the fundy concepts because that's all they know. (And also for the same reason animal rights activists throw paint on matrons in fur coats and not bikers in leather jackets. Never take on someone who can fight back.) It is very similar to the way creationists argue against a cartoon version of evolution -- even if it is the cartoon version that "99%" of people employ regarding evolution.

The traditional churches did not get their faith from the Bible. They obtained their Bible from their faith. The Church as such existed before the Bible was compiled. They selected those books insofar as they informed the beliefs of the Church, and they were always meant to be read in the context of that teaching. (See Augustine, "On Christian doctrine.") The Orthodox and other Eastern churches call it The Holy Traditions and the Roman church calls it the Magisterium.

+ + +
Quine says:
"As a scientist, I am sure you have read Popper and Kuhn on this."

Are you claiming to be a scientist, or is that just a dangling participle? Curious about your chops, is all.

Be careful about snuggling up with Popper and Kuhn, though. Their conscious intent was to destroy scientific positivism. Which, maybe it needed some destroying; but surely you realize that both Popper and Kuhn declared that new scientific "theories" were no more "true" than older ones. Kuhn even wrote that heliocentrism was no closer to the "truth" than geocentrism; and Popper used the theory of evolution as an example of an unfalsifiable (and "hence" unscientific) theory. Surely, if you are using the screen-name Quine, you cannot be unaware of Duhem's demolition of Popper before Popper even came along!

Quine also says:
"I was going to run him around trying to justify this in explaining the observer effect in the famous double-slit experiment, or particle decay, or quantum entanglement, or worked backward through the problem of turbulence. Oh well, perhaps I will go do something constructive, instead."

Hey, why start now?

Don't know what any of those examples have to do with the concept that "causes must have something in them of the effect." The usual confusion is that this means the effect must be in the cause formally, that is, in the exact same form. That is why the distinction was made between formal and eminent causality. Clear thinking requires the drawing of fine distinctions. The post-modern world is impatient with that sort of thing and calls it "jargon."

It was the Aristotelians who first understood that the "observer" cannot be separated from the "observed." (Experiments were distrusted because they represented the observer's intrusion into the thing observed. In this regard, Darwin was much more an Aristotelian, in that he ran no experiments.) Aristotle and Aquinas insisted that there is a kind of phenomenon "that is not based on the ignorance of the agent, but on the indeterminacy of nature. How far this indeterminacy extends is a matter for experiment; but it is allowed in principle by the reality of matter in natural things." (For a couple centuries, while the Thomists held that nature was down at the bottom indeterminate, the Early Modern Scientists were saying, Nyah, nyah! Nature is determinate. See the formulas? Determination disproves God! Now that physics has asserted the indeterminacy of nature, they are saying, Nyah, nyah! Nature is indeterminate. Indeterminacy disproves God! The Thomists shrug and say, What kept you?)

(One Thomist philosopher comments wryly: "In our own time, there is a fair amount of armchair metaphysics that gets done by people considering quantum physics. If history is any guide, chances are that the next generation will start lecturing me about how it is the definitive justification of Atheism, in the same way that their atheist forefathers insisted that atheism was required by Newtonianism or by the eternity of the world. For thousands of years, scholars insisted that if the world were finite in time, then God must exist. Then scientists started to think that the world was finite, and the insistence was dropped and instantly forgotten.)

IOW, seeing as how these concepts were bouncing around back in the day, I don't think that there is any fundamental incompatibility between them and A-T metaphysics. In fact, A-T metaphysics is less subversive of the scientific program than are the Early Modern philosophers, and far less so than the post-modern ones.

4.24.2010 | 9:16pm
Quine says:
Hi Carlo,

Richard Feynman famously described science as a way to keep from fooling ourselves. That is why we take our questions to that subset. I agree that truth can be found outside that bound, but also, we may be fooling ourselves. Also, I admit that you have to grant to others their right to undecidable opinions. However, we must draw the line at facts, and reject speculation that is inconsistent with known facts.

Cheers

4.24.2010 | 10:44pm
severalspeciesof says:
@Ye Olde Statistician

You say: " ...and Popper used the theory of evolution as an example of an unfalsifiable (and "hence" unscientific) theory... "

Um, sorry that isn't true, or better put, he later retracted that idea...

See: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA211_1.html
point #2

4.24.2010 | 10:59pm
John in CT says:
Speaking as someone who recently returned to religion after a long absence, may I just say...Well Done, Mr. Hart. Though I will express a certain amount of pessimism regarding your changing any minds across the fence...especially given the bile and venom from previous comments about this article...

Living in a very liberal part of the Northeast, I know quite a few people who espouse similar views to the Ditchkins mob, and through bitter experience have learned that trying to have any sort of civil conversation on this matter is a waste of time, since the standard New Atheist argument seems to be "if your religious, then you're a dangerous lunatic who listens to the voice sin his head." Attempts to explain the mystery of faith to this lot usually end with the childish mantra "prove it, prove it, prove it..."

Now, I'm not a philosopher by any means, I can only go by my own personal experience. Faith, to me, begins where science leaves off. They are asking for rational proof about something that by definition is unknowable, asking for material evidence about something that is beyond the material...which I think points to the main problem. They can't conceive of an existence beyond this world. beyond what they can see and feel and touch. Anything that they cannot define and understand by their own standards is dismissed as delusion, and anyone who disagrees with them must be attacked. So in sense, and this point has been made elsewhere by others of greater perception, they are really no different from religious fundamentalists. Except that in place of scripture, they look to science, and instead of worshiping a deity, they worship themselves.

These militant atheists don't have the intellectual equipment to understand faith and religious belief. Trying to explain it to them is like trying to teach a fish how to tap dance...it's a frustrating waste of time that ends in failure.

4.25.2010 | 12:16am
piero says:
As a hardline atheist, I must admit that M. Trouver and Ye Olde Statistician have given me some food for thought. However, their objections to naturalism and positivism, though well-founded and cogent, do nothing to bridge the gap from deism to theism, much less to Christianity, let alone Catholicism.

Yes, we must start from assumptions, or axioms. Yes, we cannot logically prove that logic is right, or that belief without evidence is irrational. By the same token, neither M. Trouver nor Ye Olde Statistician can prove that they exist, or that they are not living in a computer simulation, or that God is not a supernatural prankster who is having us on just for the hell of it (sorry). Given that both theists and atheists are at a loss to ground their beliefs in a watertight, unassailable argument, what should we do?

Although no-one could give a solid, convincing argument to reject the possibility that we are living in a computer simulation, no religious person believes it. Why? Because there are things that matter to us and things that don't matter to us. I couldn't give a sommersaulting toss whether God is apophatic, the ground of all being or the intractable transcendence of sesquipedalian apprehensions; I care about my welfare and the welfare of others. Whether we are pieces of software or the immanent creation of the ground of all being, the fact remains that we feel pain, hunger, thirst and lust. What worldview could more easily lead to a state of affairs where more people enjoy their lives? Religion has blown its chance. For thousands of years, people have worshipped thousands of different gods, and no good has come of it. What's the point?

Let's assume that some unimaginably clever philosopher finally proves that the Universe had to be created. What of it? How do you jump from that to churches and crucifixes? Why do religious people so easily jump from the sublime to the ridiculuous?

4.25.2010 | 12:55am
Michele says:
I'm a militant atheist, there is nothing on this earth that speaks god to me. I see evolution everywhere I go. I see millions of years of natural selection. Where I see these things you all see a god at work. One of the funniest things I find with militant christians (or muslims or jews) is the idea that YOU have it right. YOUR religion is the right one. buddhists, native americans and their great spirit, that's all hogwash. But MY bible/torah/koran whatever, oh yes, that's the right one. It's so laughable to think that there are millions of people walking around thinking theirs is the answer to the universe and everyone else's is a ticket to hell. Those are some gods y'all believe in. But I digress.. I'm an atheist who has pondered the topic of A God (whatever the flavor might be) and can't get more than 2 steps into such thoughts without my logic center crashing. I can't even conceive of anyone believing in things such as angels, prayer, god saving one person (I got well! thank you jesus!) while letting another die in unimaginable agony. I don't know how you all reconcile it (without the childish and dismissive god's plan explains everything... you don't know the plan but you know there is one, and that it was god's will when it went your way? but you don't know what god's will was when it didn't? how DO you all explain this stuff away so easily! LOL!). Oh the torment religion has given to women, children, people of color, all justified by their bible and their beliefs... it's enough to make me throw up in a pew. A child was just murdered by the follower of a Christian sect who uses bible versus to justify beating your child into submission like a wild horse starting in infancy. You believers can take any page out of that mythology and support anything. It's why it's so universally appealing, much like horoscopes. Take any horoscope on any day and it applies to nearly everyone. It rings so true, it sucks in believers.

But to dismiss a movement that is taking hold because humans are finally freeing themselves from the brainwashed dark dogma of religious facism without fear of an eternal hell to burn our ankles off millimeter by millimeter as being only a temporary blip, you're again deluding yourselves. Young people declare themselves as atheists at rates you couldn't have conceived of 20 years ago. Sure, lemmings need their crutch, their god to pray to when they're down, their god to turn to when they can't seem to quit the booze by themselves, their god to thank when things are great, I get it. Fortunately, the thinkers amongst us are free from such a requirement to exist happily and morally without it. It's quite liberating.

4.25.2010 | 1:56am
Papalinton says:
Reply to: John in CT says: 10.59pm

"Faith, to me, begins where science leaves off. ..."

Ah Hah! Invoking the S J Gould 'non-overlapping magisteria' maneuver.

I am surprised at how the religiose can borrow from (and brazenly) the very hard-won gains of science, such as quantum mechanics to describe aspects of their religiosity ( eg the trinitarian view), or they will avail themselves of all that modern medicine can provide them to stay on this earth for as long as possible, to defer meeting their maker; and accept all other aspects of science bar one, evolution (or more precisely 'natural selection'), with impunity.

Yet, once challenged in a serious and meaningful way, they (the religiose) revert to type; defaulting to the S J Gould position, or to a meaningless universal declarative such as,

"...militant atheists don't have the intellectual equipment to understand faith and religious belief."

Well, as you say, "asking for rational proof about something that by definition is unknowable, asking for material evidence about something that is beyond the material....", is precisely the main problem. THERE. IS. NOTHING. How can one posit a half-decent argument against whatever that is not there, that is beyond material? Yes, yes, I can hear you scream that there are any number of cogent examples where immaterial issues can be philosophically discussed. I simply don't think the existence of gods is one of them. Religions yes, gods no. The several previous millennia is probably a pretty fair indicator of the inanity of such a discussion.

We need to move on. We need to put away our myths, legends, stories, and superstitions if we are to face the very great challenges the future holds for us.

We can still hold onto our conservative roots in order that we proceed with caution into the future, mindful of our historical past, without muddying them with an overlay of supernatural dross.

I look forward to your partnership.

4.25.2010 | 3:08am
Quine says:
Ye Olde Statistician says: "... One consequence of these virtual pairs that are produced and annihilated immediately is the evaporation of energy from black holes predicted by Steve Hawking. That is, he predicted that black holes are not really black but gray. That is they lose energy. **Thus one can check, in principle, for radiation loss by black holes. If one can show that black holes don’t lose energy, the vacuum energy is falsified.**"

Thanks to your friend. Yes, Bekenstein-Hawking radiation is predicted by theory and may be observed at some point in the future. If a black hole is found that does not radiate, then we would have data to use to go back and check the theory. That might mean that something is happening with quantum gravity (not understood at this time) such that the expected separation of virtual particle pairs by the extreme curvature is not enough. We see effects of the virtual particles everywhere else, so observation of no black hole radiation would not cause us to suspect the pairs are not being made as our first possible explanation (special case). Remember, I asked you for a place with nothing, and a black hole is somewhere with plenty of something. Anyway, thanks for thinking about it.

Ye Olde Statistician says: [Quine says:
"As a scientist, I am sure you have read Popper and Kuhn on this."
Are you claiming to be a scientist, or is that just a dangling participle?]

That was from a reply to Carlo, who claimed to be a scientist.

Ye Olde Statistician says:"Don't know what any of those examples have to do with the concept that "causes must have something in them of the effect." The usual confusion is that this means the effect must be in the cause formally, that is, in the exact same form. That is why the distinction was made between formal and eminent causality."

I see that as a re-cloaking of the old causal chain arguments, however, it does not add any new strength. Also, you get the problem of generalizing. Showing any number of examples of "something in them of the effect" does not invoke an induction to all examples, which is what you need in order to get it to apply to an unseen cause. That is why counter examples on the quantum level (it only takes one, and there will be plenty) break the generalization and sink the rest of your argument.

4.25.2010 | 4:12am
RMW says:
Edward said:
"The Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden and most other nations of northern Europe contain relatively low percentages of "Christians," yet their human rights records, their generosity, their average education levels, their quality of life, lengthy life spans, low crime rates..."
One Norwegian news site reported that Scandinavian cities in 2007 have higher crime rates than New York city itself:
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article2299327.ece
"Oslo had the highest rate per person in Scandinavia in terms of reported crimes, with 90 reported crimes per 1,000. Copenhagen had 50 crimes reported per 1,000 and Stockholm had 79. In New York, there were 22 reported crimes per 1,000 inhabitants."

tonyp said:
"... But he must produce something that can be seen, heard, smelled, touched, measured, weighed - whatever. If he can't do that, then he has no right to poo-poo any argument athiests make. "
I cannot now see, hear, smell, touch, measure, weigh Julius Caesar. Maybe this means Julius never was.

Michele said:
"I'm a militant atheist, there is nothing on this earth that speaks god to me. I see evolution everywhere I go. I see millions of years of natural selection."
Have you been living for millions of years?!

Piero said:
"Although no-one could give a solid, convincing argument to reject the possibility that we are living in a computer simulation... Whether we are pieces of software or the immanent creation of the ground of all being, the fact remains that we feel pain, hunger, thirst and lust".
If we are nothing more than some computer simulation, would pain, hunger, thirst and lust even matter?

4.25.2010 | 4:16am
Papalinton says:
piero says, 12.16am
Michele says, 12.55am

Your neat evocation (all-be-it a very shallow one, from a David Hart-ian perspective, with no sense of 'deepity') pretty much reflects my view on this issue.

Perhaps the religiose are correct in the foretelling of the eschaton, the apocalypse. But it may not be what they would wish. Rather than being whisked away in the 'rapture' just before armageddon, it may well be the end of the world as they know it is occurring through the subtle yet detectable demise of religion's grip on modern society.

I want to be spiritual about my world, but without the theism. As Eller points out: the way the church uses it, "...spirituality is the alienation of humanity: the human ( and the best part of human) attributed to the non-human" (read the supernatural)
I want it back where it rightfully belongs with all humanity, with the agnostic, the humanist, the atheist. This theistic misappropriation must be corrected.

4.25.2010 | 8:53am
Aime Cerf says:
To Ye Olde Statistician,
Sir, your arguments are coherent, your comments solvent, and your distinctions both crucial and correct; you actually have the temerity to understand the concepts you invoke; you have obviously taken the time to learn the meaning of the terms that philosophical theology has used for the past two and a half millennia, reaching back to Plato.
I submit, sir, that this is unconscionable behavior. You are taking unfair advantage of the Dawkins crowd, who (like their great master) have scrupulously avoided studying the principles of modal logic, the history of religious thought, the development of metaphysics, the debates that followed in the wake of Hume and Kant, and so forth, so that they can airily dismiss anything they don't understand as nonsense, respond with fatuous arguments of no logical worth whatsoever, and continue to cherish their childish fundamentalist view of their opponent--all with a clear conscience!
But you're not playing by the rules of the game! You are using actual knowledge of the topic, you are demanding actual reasoning, you have studied! This is appalling! Don't you understand that the New Atheists live in a cosy little world of straw men and paper palaces all their own, and they're happy there? Richard Dawkins has taught them that they don't need to know anything about ideas, so long as they fling around bad arguments with a sufficient air of pompous belligerence. Let them be happy. Let them think they're scoring points. It's the only game they've learned to play, and you don't want to spoil it for them with adult matters.
AC

4.25.2010 | 9:19am
John in CT says:
@Papalinton

Well, at least you were more civil in your tone than some of the trollish types posting before....

But I don't think you really got the point I was trying to make ( I don't know enough about Stephen Jay Gould to comment) Attempting to present proof about something that lies beyond to the material to those whose world view won't accept or understand it an act of futility. It's like trying to describe the sun to a blind man who spent his entire life locked in a dark room...using sign language.

To me, faith is like modern art. You either get it or you don't. And if you don't get it, accusing those who do of being deluded, unenlightened lunatics doesn't help your cause any.

Also, Terry Eagleton a wrote a pretty sharp rebuttal to Ditchkins (he coined the name, in fact.) "Reason, Faith, and Revolution: Reflections on the God Debate"...good spot for an alternative take on the debate.

4.25.2010 | 1:13pm
Diacanu says:
Hart says...

"I think I am very close to concluding that this whole “New Atheism” movement is only a passing fad—".

Well, right out of the gate, he shoots himself in the foot.

If "the new atheism", is a nothing but a fad, then all the Christian apologists who pounded out their little books killed all those trees for absolutely nothing.

Either he's saying his fellow Christians were idiots to do so, but sat on his thumbs until now while it happened, or, they were making cynical cash grabs, and for whatever reason, he's been perfectly fine with that.

Doesn't look good for him either way.

And right in the opening sentence.

Didn't take long to crash and burn on that one.

4.25.2010 | 1:40pm
Frederick Greer says:
@ Quine

You may think there are counter-examples at the quantum level, but of course there are not. And all good philosophers of science today would seem to disagree with you. In fact, as far as the philosophy of science goes, quite a lot of very competent thinkers would argue that the evidences of modern physics point towards a stronger case for a modified Aristotelian view of cause.

What is interesting at the quantum level are events for which no causal explanation is known (this, incidentally, is different from saying "for which there is no cause," which is a metaphysical, not a scientific, claim). After all, "particles" that seem spontaneously to fluctuate between existence and nonexistence, or to emerge without quantifiable antecedent, might very well look to a person of rigorous mind like instances of eminent causation. In fact, there may not be another logically plausible hypothesis as yet.

The only physicist I know competent to discourse in real depth on quantum issues tells me that the behavior of the quantum realm long ago forced him to abandon philosophical materialism, and to give up his cherished atheism, and to embrace a kind of "contentless theism."

Still, though, the basic point remains. Leibniz's question regarding why anything exists--including the possibilities of the quantum vacuum--may be unanswerable, or may not be; but it certainly isn't driven away by the sort of arguments that you are making. You've just pushed the causal mystery back to a more primordial level, but you haven't alleviated the ontological mystery at all. This is a simple point, but its significance seems to elude the Dawkinians. Wonder why...

4.25.2010 | 3:27pm
piero says:
John in CT:
"It's like trying to describe the sun to a blind man who spent his entire life locked in a dark room...using sign language."

No, it is not. The blind man locked in a dark room could be presented with evidence that the sighted man or woman really does have a sense not available to him. Can you provide evidence for your claim that you possess a sense that I lack? Is there anything you know that you could only have gathered through that extra sense of yours, and if so, can you tell me what it is? Until you do, I'll dismiss your claim as pious rubbish.

4.25.2010 | 3:31pm
piero says:
RMW:
"If we are nothing more than some computer simulation, would pain, hunger, thirst and lust even matter?"

Of course they would. You might just as well had asked "if we are nothing more than some ensemble of molecules, would pain, hunger, thirst and lust even matter?"

4.25.2010 | 7:39pm
Papalinton says:
To: John in CT 9.19am

Thanks for the civility call.

For you, ...."faith is like modern art. You either get it or you don't." That may be true. Art is very much front and centre in my life. Art can and indeed is able to invoke great emotion, for and against.

My concern with faith is that it can hold someone so strongly even in the face of vast and overwhelming evidence to the contrary. My concern is that faith is so indiscriminate. It is an emotive 'feeling' (in other words a brain function) that can so easily be exploited. I think of the faith trails that lead back to the Pat Robertsons, the Creflo Dollars, the Jerry Falwells, the Benny Hinns, the Phelps family and how they are able to manipulate hundreds of thousands of good people with impunity. Who makes the distinction between good and bad faith? What is to be made of the current issue of child abuse in the Catholic church, a house of faith?
They all espouse faith. How does one reconcile faith and the abuse that occurs under its banner? I want to know about action, not another talkfest as propounded by David Hart.

Help me out here.

4.25.2010 | 10:46pm
R. L. McConnell says:
For me, the most interesting aspect of Hart's article is his view of the "New Atheism" as it relates to Nietzsche. Today's humanism remains riddled with "men like the New Atheists, clinging as they do to those tenuous vestiges of Christian morality that they have absurdly denominated 'humanism,' who shelter themselves in caves and venerate shadows."

Amen. There is nothing very original or courageous in this group of poseurs. Simply put, they are incapable of rising to the level of Nietzsche's intellectual honesty and bravery. Instead, they confuse "mere formal atheism" with genuine unbelief.

Reread Hart on this matter: The only really effective antidote to the dreariness of reading the New Atheists, it seems to me, is rereading Nietzsche. How much more immediate and troubling the force of his protest against Christianity seems when compared to theirs, even more than a century after his death. Perhaps his intellectual courage—his willingness to confront the implications of his renunciation of the Christian story of truth and the transcendent good without evasions or retreats—is rather a lot to ask of any other thinker, but it does rather make the atheist chic of today look fairly craven by comparison.

Above all, Nietzsche understood how immense the consequences of the rise of Christianity had been, and how immense the consequences of its decline would be as well, and had the intelligence to know he could not fall back on polite moral certitudes to which he no longer had any right. Just as the Christian revolution created a new sensibility by inverting many of the highest values of the pagan past, so the decline of Christianity, Nietzsche knew, portends another, perhaps equally catastrophic shift in moral and cultural consciousness. His famous fable in The Gay Science of the madman who announces God’s death is anything but a hymn of atheist triumphalism. In fact, the madman despairs of the mere atheists—those who merely do not believe—to whom he addresses his terrible proclamation. In their moral contentment, their ease of conscience, he sees an essential oafishness; they do not dread the death of God because they do not grasp that humanity’s heroic and insane act of repudiation has sponged away the horizon, torn down the heavens, left us with only the uncertain resources of our will with which to combat the infinity of meaninglessness that the universe now threatens to become.

Because he understood the nature of what had happened when Christianity entered history with the annunciation of the death of God on the cross, and the elevation of a Jewish peasant above all gods, Nietzsche understood also that the passing of Christian faith permits no return to pagan naivete, and he knew that this monstrous inversion of values created within us a conscience that the older order could never have incubated. He understood also that the death of God beyond us is the death of the human as such within us. If we are, after all, nothing but the fortuitous effects of physical causes, then the will is bound to no rational measure but itself, and who can imagine what sort of world will spring up from so unprecedented and so vertiginously uncertain a vision of reality?

For Nietzsche, therefore, the future that lies before us must be decided, and decided between only two possible paths: a final nihilism, which aspires to nothing beyond the momentary consolations of material contentment, or some great feat of creative will, inspired by a new and truly worldly mythos powerful enough to replace the old and discredited mythos of the Christian revolution (for him, of course, this meant the myth of the Übermensch).

Where Nietzsche was almost certainly correct, however, was in recognizing that mere formal atheism was not yet the same thing as true unbelief. As he writes in The Gay Science, “Once the Buddha was dead, people displayed his shadow for centuries afterwards in a cave, an immense and dreadful shadow. God is dead: —but as the human race is constituted, there will perhaps be caves for millennia yet where people will display his shadow. And we—we have yet to overcome his shadow!” It may appear that Nietzsche is here referring to “persons of faith”—those poor souls who continue to make their placid, bovine trek to church every week to worship a God who passed away long ago—but that is not his meaning.

He is referring principally to those who think they have eluded God simply by ceasing to believe in his existence. For Nietzsche, “scientism”—the belief that the modern scientific method is the only avenue of truth, one capable of providing moral truth or moral meaning—is the worst dogmatism yet, and the most pathetic of all metaphysical nostalgias. And it is, in his view, precisely men like the New Atheists, clinging as they do to those tenuous vestiges of Christian morality that they have absurdly denominated “humanism,” who shelter themselves in caves and venerate shadows. As they do not understand the past, or the nature of the spiritual revolution that has come and now gone for Western humanity, so they cannot begin to understand the peril of the future.

If I were to choose from among the New Atheists a single figure who to my mind epitomizes the spiritual chasm that separates Nietzsche’s unbelief from theirs, I think it would be the philosopher and essayist A.C. Grayling. For a short time I entertained the misguided hope that he might produce an atheist manifesto somewhat richer than the others currently on offer. Unfortunately, all his efforts in that direction suffer from the same defects as those of his fellows: the historical errors, the sententious moralism, the glib sophistry. Their great virtue, however, is that they are mercifully short. One essay of his in particular, called “Religion and Reason,” can be read in a matter of minutes and provides an almost perfect distillation of the whole New Atheist project.

The essay is even, at least momentarily, interesting. Couched at one juncture among its various arguments (all of which are pretty poor), there is something resembling a cogent point. Among the defenses of Christianity an apologist might adduce, says Grayling, would be a purely aesthetic cultural argument: But for Christianity, there would be no Renaissance art—no Annunciations or Madonnas—and would we not all be much the poorer if that were so? But, in fact, no, counters Grayling; we might rather profit from a far greater number of canvasses devoted to the lovely mythical themes of classical antiquity, and only a macabre sensibility could fail to see that “an Aphrodite emerging from the Paphian foam is an infinitely more life-enhancing image than a Deposition from the Cross.” Here Grayling almost achieves a Nietzschean moment of moral clarity.

Ignoring that leaden and almost perfectly ductile phrase “life-enhancing,” I, too—red of blood and rude of health—would have to say I generally prefer the sight of nubile beauty to that of a murdered man’s shattered corpse. The question of whether Grayling might be accused of a certain deficiency of tragic sense can be deferred here. But perhaps he would have done well, in choosing this comparison, to have reflected on the sheer strangeness, and the significance, of the historical and cultural changes that made it possible in the first place for the death of a common man at the hands of a duly appointed legal authority to become the captivating center of an entire civilization’s moral and aesthetic contemplations—and for the deaths of all common men and women perhaps to be invested thereby with a gravity that the ancient order would never have accorded them.

Here, displayed with an altogether elegant incomprehensibility in Grayling’s casual juxtaposition of the sea-born goddess and the crucified God (who is a crucified man), one catches a glimpse of the enigma of the Christian event, which Nietzsche understood and Grayling does not: the lightning bolt that broke from the cloudless sky of pagan antiquity, the long revolution that overturned the hierarchies of heaven and earth alike. One does not have to believe any of it, of course—the Christian story, its moral claims, its metaphysical systems, and so forth. But anyone who chooses to lament that event should also be willing, first, to see this image of the God-man, broken at the foot of the cross, for what it is, in the full mystery of its historical contingency, spiritual pathos, and moral novelty: that tender agony of the soul that finds the glory of God in the most abject and defeated of human forms. Only if one has succeeded in doing this can it be of any significance if one still, then, elects to turn away."

4.25.2010 | 11:35pm
severalspeciesof says:
Rhetorical question here...

Why are quite a few here so enamored with Nietzche?

His world is gone...

4.26.2010 | 12:10am
Quine says:
Frederick Greer said: [@ Quine

You may think there are counter-examples at the quantum level, but of course there are not. And all good philosophers of science today would seem to disagree with you. In fact, as far as the philosophy of science goes, quite a lot of very competent thinkers would argue that the evidences of modern physics point towards a stronger case for a modified Aristotelian view of cause.]

Frederick, if you go back and read the thread you will see that my comment was about a property that Ye Olde Statistician was trying to work backwards through all effects to all causes, not cause and effect itself. He used that in the first step of an argument, and I am asking him to show that his statement is true over all effects, which I wait for him to do.

Frederick Greer said: [The only physicist I know competent to discourse in real depth on quantum issues tells me that the behavior of the quantum realm long ago forced him to abandon philosophical materialism, and to give up his cherished atheism, and to embrace a kind of "contentless theism."]

I kind of like that second-hand anecdote because it exemplifies what I call "Homeopathic Theology" in which traditional concepts of deities are watered down to avoid the inconsistencies when they collide with the ever increasing body of facts discovered through science. The idea is that this avoidance makes them stronger as they are watered to, essentially, nothing. Since it does look like nothing may have exploded into everything, I can also go with believing all deities are, literally, diluted to nothing.

If you want any content, i.e. properties assigned to your deities, you need more than the wonder that there is anything rather than nothing.

Got evidence?

4.26.2010 | 12:36am
Diacanu says:
R. L. McConnel said...

"...I entertained the misguided hope that he might produce an atheist manifesto...".

There's your mistake.
Stop looking for manifestos, think for yourself.

Do you need an a-fairy-ist manifesto?

"Only if one has succeeded in doing this can it be of any significance if one still, then, elects to turn away".

Did you do that with Zeus, Poseidon, Anubis, Quetzalcoatl?
Deeply contemplate the deep meaning of their respective myths before rejecting them?

How about those fairies?

Do much reflecting upon the historical contingency, spiritual pathos, and moral novelty: that tender agony of the soul that finds the glory in the reflective surface of the fairy's wings?

4.26.2010 | 2:03am
Papalinton says:
R. L. McConnel 10.46pm

Yes true, there is no going back to paganism. Who wants to? And why would there need be a replacement for a religiose philosophy when christianity passes?

From a purely mechanistic viewpoint, christianity was the only game in town, so to speak, for a thousand years or more. It was its status as the official religion of the government of the day (since Constantine) that enabled it to attain such great power over humankind within its influence. This official imprimatur gave it unbounded authority to shoehorn society in through the big end of the funnel and compress all human activity, its science, its art, its literature, out through the little end into a life so constricted by the tenets of what the church saw meeting the minimum requirements.
Believe me, it wasn't the power of philosophical argument that swayed the local populace to restrict their artistic and spiritual endeavours to that which pleased the church. Oh no. Church sanctioned violence, I suspect had a much more profound effect on the manner and form of art and culture that transpired during its reign. I think of Galileo, Michelangelo, Copernicus. What would they have achieved in the absence of church proscription? How much more transcendent could their great journeys have been into the wonderland world of human creativity? I wonder how diverse the human spirit might have been in art, sculpture, literature without the overlay of impending censure?

Mr McConnel, I simply think your argument does not stack up against that offered by A C Grayling, despite the brevity of his clear thinking.

You may wish to opine...."(o)ne does not have to believe any of it, of course—the Christian story, its moral claims, its metaphysical systems, and so forth. But anyone who chooses to lament that event should also be willing, first, to see this image of the God-man, broken at the foot of the cross, for what it is, in the full mystery of its historical contingency, spiritual pathos, and moral novelty: that tender agony of the soul that finds the glory of God in the most abject and defeated of human forms. Only if one has succeeded in doing this can it be of any significance if one still, then, elects to turn away."

It is still, nonetheless, just a story, regardless of the impact it may have on you personally. But there are countless other stories that equally drive the great emotions in one's life that simply do not require to be told in the christian format. This story is only but one that captures the human spirit. I am unconvinced that human creativity, the reach for the transcendence, the reach for the ends of humankind's capacity should be restricted to this one story, a product of its time when there was only one game in town.

I think this is what Grayling infers. A wider sphere of endeavour.

4.26.2010 | 3:14am
Ben says:
Boy. The Comments by atheists on this article make Hart's points with even greater force. They are depressing to read. The atheists seem to have all missed the point, "But you didn't prove the existence of God". Well, he never set out to do so. And then, the numerous coments whose only purpose is to say unkind things about believers.
Thanks, Mr. Hart. The article made good points, and then the exhibition in the comments section was a priceless confirmation of everything you said in the article.

4.26.2010 | 9:45am
Sean says:
severelspecies,

"Rhetorical question here...

Why are quite a few here so enamored with Nietzche?

His world is gone..."

Read him and see. He's your worst nightmare, and his world is just beginning. :)

4.26.2010 | 9:52am
Sean says:
diacanu,

"Did you do that with Zeus, Poseidon, Anubis, Quetzalcoatl?
Deeply contemplate the deep meaning of their respective myths before rejecting them?"

As a matter of fact, you could read the gospel as a contemplation and deconstruction of the pagan myths. No christian really needs to bother with other gods, tho in my own case I've read some of the aztec myths (mystical militarism/fascism under another name), read the greek myths (gods who rape humans? no thanks), and the egyptian myths (good times). I don't see what the big deal about them is. Are you saying every christian (or other religious person) needs to be well versed in all world religions and myths before deciding on a certain belief system?

Because that seems like a rather bizarre criterion to hold people to.

4.26.2010 | 10:22am
James Holt says:
@Papalinton
Sheesh.
Look, the sort of "nothing" that becomes "something" is not nonexistence. It is an existing state of potentiality at the quantum level. As such, it cannot be the answer to the question of "Why is there anything rather than nothing?" This is a qualitatively different question, one that embraces the quantum vacuum, and applies to that sort of "nothing" as cogently as it applies to an apple. There is a logical issue here regarding the possibility of the existence of a state of affairs in which possibility is prior to actuality (which, logically speaking, is absurd). Observations on the behavior of the quantum realm also do not make the least bit of difference to this question (for God's sake, an ardent believer might just say that the sudden appearance of quantum events is a perfect example of special creation--which is just as mistaken).
You may not think this is a valid or meaningful issue; you may not even understand what the issue is; but all that means is that you have really REALLY never bothered to devote real study or thought to what are very old and very complex philosophical problems. Like Dawkins, you think you're making an argument about "God" and "creation," but you're not. All your posts to this point indicate only that you are consistently missing the point.
And of course you will this time as well.
Just for fun, just for the adventure, just in a dare, could you read a few of the basic texts, or some trustworthy guides--E. L. Mascall, W. Norris Clarke, Etienne Gilson, etc.--just so you'll know what it is you're talking about? You don't need to be convinced, but at least you'd actually be on message. And you don't need to be ambitious and dive into the difficult technical discussions about whether these ideas work or what their modal status is, the sort of thing you'll find in Peter van Inwagen, for instance. But you'd be better prepared to argue truths of reason.

4.26.2010 | 10:32am
R.L. McConnell says:
Diacanu states:

"R. L. McConnel said...

"...I entertained the misguided hope that he might produce an atheist manifesto...".

No, no, no, Diacanu. I was quoting Hart. Your reading skills leave much to be desired. Yours is an unfortunate trait that many on here seem to share. You did read Hart's article, didn't you?

4.26.2010 | 10:46am
Scott Scheule says:
Sean, read what dicanu is actual responding to. It was Hart who asserted that atheists should be familiar with what they're dismissing. If you're going to disagree with that point, you're disagreeing with Hart, not diacanu--diacanu was simply following Hart's argument to completion.

4.26.2010 | 10:59am
Snaktime says:
Is there some value in insulting the arguments of New Atheists rather than responding to those arguments? Because if Hart is attempting to respond to their arguments, I don't really see it.

Take for instance the age-old "problem of evil." Why is there so much evil in the world if there is an all-powerful, all-good god. This philosophical issue is so old the attempt to deal with it has its own name ("theodicy").

Now my perspective is that there is absolutely no adequate philosophical answer to this problem. I guess Hart thinks otherwise. But it would seem from this article that not only does Hart think that the problem of evil has been solved, but that there something "unserious" or "intellectually and morally trivial" about even making an atheist argument from the problem of evil. Really?

We're talking some serious hubris here if Hart is actually going to contend (as I think he does here) that the New Atheists are lacking in substance or "trivial." And the problem of evil is only one of the many philosophical issues that the atheists address.

At some point Hart's argument almost comes off as "the atheist's arguments are too straight-forward. Now watch me engage in a lot of jargony academic philosophy that no one understands." That's not really much of a response.

4.26.2010 | 11:14am
Stephen Kennamer says:
All right, here's what Hart gets right: Nietzsche and Hume did the job so well that there is really nothing for Dawkins and Hitchens to add. But I might also say that Augustine and John Calvin did the job so well that there is nothing for Barth, Bonhoeffer, and Kung to add. Nonetheless, Christian apologists go on writing, and sometimes their writing sinks to the level of Robertson and Falwell and Hagee.

The New Atheists are popular journalists and their efforts resemble that of the late 19th century's Robert Ingersoll rather than Nietzsche. Their writings do not add to his, either: he concentrated, as they also often do, on the elementary contradictions that can be found in the Bible by any ordinary reader.

So why are they repeating such stale news? Because over 350 years of knockdown arguments against theism have failed to knock it down. You can't say that Hume, Kant, and Nietzsche finished the job and eradicated what Voltaire called "the infamy." Hart can't argue that there is no need for these books: he can't say that superstitious religion--the rotgut kind, the kind that sees God's hand in every human event and hates gays--has been wiped out.

Everyone but Hart seems to understand that the New Atheists have been galvanized by seeing fundamentalist and evangelical Christianity not only grow exponentially in numbers and influence in the world's one remaining superpower, but essentially take over its government for eight years, there to make war on science as well as on other countries. Yes, it's true, the New Atheists do not engage with Karen Armstrong's impalpable god of the educated mystics of the Middle Ages--a god whose existence is so compatible with his non-existence that nothing is at stake either way. They engage with the god of Robertson and Falwell. Hart probably abhors that god as much as the New Atheists do--I hope he does--but he would rather purge the intellectual commonwealth of everyone who fails read Thomas Aquinas from cover to cover than oppose the people who would burn Hume, Kant, and Nietzsche at the stake if they had their druthers.

While he is accusing the New Atheists of missing the point of highly sophisticated arguments for the existence of God, he seems to miss the point of a really simple argument: if there is no compelling evidence for the belief in question, the skeptic is not really required to entertain the belief and take up the billions of pages of subtle exegesis. Perhaps Dawkins goes too far in arguing that he can prove the non-existence of god, but that does not acquit Hart of setting him up as a straw man. Most atheists are content with a much more modest assertion: "I do not say that unicorns do not exist; I say that you have not given me any reason to believe that they exist." The burden is on the believer. I don't have to read Aquinas's Summa Unicornicus until you give me something better than "He will prove that unicorns, although invisible, non-physical, and undetectable, exist ontologically and necessarily because a contingent unicorn is paradoxical." When Hart's "god" turns out to be merely the spiritual plenitude out of which something rather than nothing sprang into being, the intelligent atheist merely shrugs: a god that transcendent is impossible to disprove, but the existence of he, she, or it leaves earthly matters standing precisely as they stood before. It is only when Hart's god takes an interest in us, loves us, chastises us, and takes human form and dies for us because somehow our original sin required the blood sacrifice of our Maker or the Maker's son, that the atheist is presented with anything relevant to human life; and now the atheist can choose from a thousand arguments in refutation, drawn from philology, history, science, and even religious studies. We simply know too much about anthropology, comparative religion, and how the Bible came to be written and then sacralized. Freud was wrong about almost everything he said about everything, excepting only his observation that monotheism with its eternal life is an infantile wish-fulfillment. He could get this one thing right because it is obvious to any genuinely educated person; in fact, Feuerbach got it right almost a century earlier.

The New Atheists are topical polemicists. They do not argue at Hart's level because it has already been done. They rail against the current state of affairs because it does not seem to matter that it has already been done, and it clearly needs doing again. They don't refute Aquinas, but neither does Hart rehabilitate Aquinas; and if he did, there would still be no evidence for the god of American fundamentalists. The crimes committed in the name of religion are convulsing the globe; meanwhile, Hart's argument that atheists have not proved the non-existence of the not-exactly-existing god leave things just where they are.

4.26.2010 | 11:27am
Sean says:
Scott,

Maybe we're talking about two different uses for 'dismiss.' What I'm saying is, I don't think it's important for people to know about all other religions before dismissing them in favor of their own (or the one they grew up with); what Hart's saying is, If you want to debate something, you should at least know what it is before you dismiss it. How's that?

4.26.2010 | 11:35am
Sean says:
I think it would be helpful and interesting if one or more of the atheists could briefly paraphrase what it is they think Hart was saying - or at least what they think the central theme of the article was.

Because some of these responses make me think we're all talking about two different articles.

4.26.2010 | 12:13pm
Scott Scheule says:
So your position is:

1. Atheists and theists are justified dismissing things without investigating them.
2. However, if you want to debate something, you should investigate it.

For one, I don't think this is what Hart's saying. He doesn't specify the debating atheists--his language is global:

"A truly profound atheist is someone who has taken the trouble to understand, in its most sophisticated forms, the belief he or she rejects, and to understand the consequences of that rejection."

Another thing is, I don't think you've picked a terribly attractive position. It seems to amount to a person should believe anything he wants unless he's actually a debater. Though if I've misinterpreted, I'm open to hearing how.

4.26.2010 | 12:22pm
Alphonsus says:
@ Scott:

Here is a "Christian" version of Hart's statement:

"A truly profound Christian is someone who has taken the trouble to understand, in its most sophisticated forms, the belief he or she affirms, and to understand the consequences of that affirmation."

Do you find this statement objectionable?

4.26.2010 | 12:23pm
severalspeciesof says:
Sean says:

"I think it would be helpful and interesting if one or more of the atheists could briefly paraphrase what it is they think Hart was saying - or at least what they think the central theme of the article was.

Because some of these responses make me think we're all talking about two different articles."
------------------------

I think Stephen Kennamer gets it pretty much on the nose (though I would disagree with his idea that Nietzsche got it right)...

4.26.2010 | 12:46pm
Sean says:
Scott,

I don't see what all the fuss is about.

If a muslim doesn't feel the need to understand christianity before rejecting it for his own faith, there's nothing wrong or unattractive about that position.

If the same muslim wants to debate me about why my religion is wrong, then naturally he should acquaint himself with my religion, its beliefs, history, apologists and their arguments, etc. or he's going to get his lunch eaten.

It's standard operating procedure, and I think it's a bit different from what Hart's doing. He may be making a subjective judgment call about the depths of NA atheism, but he's perfectly within his right to make that judgment as are you to judge him wrong (and I to agree with him). Profundity is subjective, no?

Since Hart made the claim about NA shallowness, it's up to him to demonstrate the basis for his feeling. One can do this by showing how atheist logic should lead to conclusions NAs generally don't seem to have considered, problems in NA critiques of religion, etc. Do those things necessarily mean one has given a 'deeper' account of atheism than the NAs do? I don't know, mainly because I'm dubious about the whole concept of 'depth' to begin with.

But I think Hart accomplished his aim rather well, even if he gets tangled up in his own purple prose - and it seems to me you all are trying to argue against the objectivity of his subjective statement, which is rather beside the point.

4.26.2010 | 12:55pm
Quine says:
Stephen Kennamer, thanks for that truly excellent comment.

4.26.2010 | 2:19pm
Joshua Gibbs says:
This article is essentially a post-script to Hart's last book and, I think, assumes readers who are familiar with the broader scope of his own take on the Modern era.

If you've not read it, don't bother with this article. Do bother what that book, though.

4.26.2010 | 2:20pm
Warren says:
".... seeing fundamentalist and evangelical Christianity not only grow exponentially in numbers and influence in the world's one remaining superpower, but essentially take over its government for eight years, there to make war on science as well as on other countries"

And there we have it. Stephen Kennamer's comments really let the cat out of the bag - namely, that modern "atheism" is just another name for left-liberalism and little or nothing more than that. Which helpfully explains why philosophical and theological arguments just bounce off most atheists - even if they're theoretically capabale of understanding such arguments, they simply don't care. They've got their little political agenda - all about stopping the coming Evil Fascist Theocracy of Bush-Cheney-Hitler-Halliburton (or whatever) - and that's all they really care about. Philosophy and theology presuppose an interest in finding the truth about reality, and today's atheists couldn't care less about that. Because they're the Good People, you see, fighting the Evil Ones, and that's that. And never mind that "good" and "evil" are utterly meaningless concepts in an atheist universe - they'll probably even agree with you about that if you back them into a corner. But they still won't care.

So, Ye Olde Statistician (and others) - I hope you keep writing, because I love reading your comments, but you are truly wasting your time with these folks.

4.26.2010 | 2:24pm
Diacanu says:
Sean-

"No christian really needs to bother with other gods".

Why?

The Atheist is expected to engage with the "sophisticated", versions of Christianity.

Why can the Christian casually wave away all the other Gods, but the Atheist has to do the extra homework to knock off that one last God?

And why is it the Christian God that's privileged to be that God, and not Zeus?

4.26.2010 | 2:24pm
Dan Balmat says:
@Stephen Kennamer

Man, I wish this thread had a “like” option! This lucid, straightforward (and temperate!) comment on Hart's article --anybody doing to argue that Mr. Kennamer misses Hart's point? -- is the one I wish I had been able to write, and why I keep revisiting this thread. Nail on freakin’ head.

It's needless recapitulation, but I'm inspired to take one last stab at crystallizing my thoughts for myself:

Hart badly (intentionally?) misconstrues the motivations and aims of the New Atheists, which primarily empirical, practical and immediate, rather than abstract and philosophical.

Consequently, he wrongly equates “simple” with “shallow”, and thus most of his “refutations” of the 50 arguments in the book are simply offhand dismissals, devoid of analysis.

Also as a consequence, the other attempted refutations fail. For example, when used against the large number of actual theists who actually argue that “a complex creation requires a creator,” the infinite regress argument really is unassailable.

Finally, compelled to offer a “sophisticated” conceptualization of god, Hart posits a philosophical construct that bears no resemblance to the thing that pretty much everybody else, both believing and non-, is actually talking about. (See Quine, supra, and “Homeopathic Theology.”)

Again, credit and thanks to those smarter and more eloquent than I for the words/ammunition.

4.26.2010 | 2:39pm
Diacanu says:
R.L. McConnell-

"No, no, no, Diacanu. I was quoting Hart".

Yeah, I know, you did say "reread Hart on this issue", I just throw the name of the person who posted regardless.
Force of habit, and a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.
Get a better nitpick.

4.26.2010 | 2:50pm
marcumx says:
In sum: atheism is dead
wounded and angry human souls
leashing out in their hopelessness

4.26.2010 | 3:11pm
Scott Scheule says:
Alphonsus,

No, but I admit I don't see your point.

Sean,

A person who holds beliefs without testing them, or opening them to confrontation with the alternatives, is not epistemologically responsible. A truth seeker should be examining alternatives whether or not there's a debate on the horizon. This seems to be the standard Hart is holding atheists to, and I agree with it. If you disagree with it, I think we're at an impasse.

The rest of your comment does not seem addressed to me, so I'll ignore it.

4.26.2010 | 3:34pm
Dan Balmat says:
@ Warren

Even if you are correct as to all of our politics, it goes without saying that attacking a political position does not constitute the slightest refutation any the argument for atheism that has been made.

In any event, though I happily plead guilty, we’re demonstrably not all lefty-lib-Bush- bashers. Hitchens remains a staunch supporter of the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, and he, Harris and Dawkins view fundamentalist Islam as one of, if not the, greatest threats to world security. This is not to claim their expertise in matters of world security, of course, but simply to point out their “politics.”

Consider this: "…seeing fundamentalist and evangelical [Islam] not only grow exponentially in numbers and influence in the world's one remaining superpower." Had someone posted this patently true statement, would you consider it reason to suspect the poster's agenda, much less constitute the slightest ammunition against any argument for atheism?

I suspect not. Your comment reveals far more about your own politics than Mr. Kennamer's.

4.26.2010 | 3:49pm
Liam says:
From what I can tell, the typical defense of the New Atheism is that the men chiefly responsible for pushing it to the forefront (Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, etc.) are polemicists and popularizers, so we should naturally not expect them to interact with more sophisticated abstract philosophy or theology while making their points. Most pro-New Atheists seem to be trying to spin this into some sort of rhetorical justification: IE, Dawkins doesn't have to write 1,000,000,000,000 pages (or some such hyperbolic number) on Thomas Aquinas to be a legitimate contributor.

Fair enough, that is a valid point. We might even let that slide if that were the whole story. But it isn't.

What I don't understand is how some people can think being popular authors somehow excuses the New Atheists from participating in the whole academic process. So, they're writing for a non-academic crowd that is familiar with only with American Fundamentalist Christians? So what? Does dealing with such a foe necessarily preclude one from fact-checking? I don't want to insult Dawkins, because I actually do think he is a very bright man, but The God Delusion was so chock-full of historical malfeasance and simple factual errors that I can scarcely understand how *anyone* could defend it, no matter what the intent of the author was.

No, it's not just abstract philosophy that he gets wrong. We have to stop restricting this conversation to back and forth volleys of "Dawkins doesn't need to understand Augusting, Duns Scotus, and Alvin Plantinga!" and "Yes he does!" I'll concede that point--he doesn't really if he just wants to spread the debate about God to the masses. But I don't believe that lets him off the hook. I think the most egregious fault with the book is that it doesn't even get basic history right--when even a simple wikipedia search could have prevented. His writings concerning Soviet Russia, Communist China, what Jesus actually *said*, and New Testament history is enough to prove the point. And of course, he is a microcosm for the New Atheism as a whole, which suffers from the same issues.

It's this kind of thing that causes such harsh reactions from the Christian community. I am myself a Christian, but I'm a habitual doubter and somewhat of an "internal" skeptic, if that makes any sense. My primary goal is simply trying to find out what is true (or at least most likely to be true). I feel like there needs to be a lot more inter-faith dialogue between Christians and atheists, and more love, because we are all "in this together," so to speak.

It's for this reason that the New Atheism is such a tragedy, I think. Because when such huge issues are on the line, misinformation and errors will only hurt the search, and impede the search for truth. They can offer nothing else.

4.26.2010 | 3:54pm
The Bible ALSO Says.... says:
It all boils down to this Mr. Hart

"The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also." - Mark Twain

You can use words as peacock feathers and convince yourself that you are a really, really smart fellow, but if you can't grasp the simple logic behind this quote you're really not that smart after all.

PS - ANY religion that threatens judgment & eternal punishment for not believing does NOT deserve to be a part of a modern world!

It's primitive, barbaric, and morally bankrupt. You SHOULD be smart enough to see that.

4.26.2010 | 4:04pm
severalspeciesof says:
@Warren

Warren says:

"".... seeing fundamentalist and evangelical Christianity not only grow exponentially in numbers and influence in the world's one remaining superpower, but essentially take over its government for eight years, there to make war on science as well as on other countries"

And there we have it. Stephen Kennamer's comments really let the cat out of the bag - namely, that modern "atheism" is just another name for left-liberalism"

Point 1.
Excellent example of quoting out of context. You forgot to include “the New Atheists have been galvanized by…”

And just what was the flash point of the galvanizing for many of the New Atheists?

Clue: Twin Towers, plus Religion...

Point 2.
You forgot the excellent appraisal by Stephen. His last sentence: "The crimes committed in the name of religion are convulsing the globe; meanwhile, Hart's argument that atheists have not proved the non-existence of the not-exactly-existing god leave things just where they are."

Point 3.
And from the gist of the middle of your comment: "They've got their little political agenda - all about stopping the coming Evil Fascist Theocracy of Bush-Cheney-Hitler-Halliburton (or whatever) - and that's all they really care about." Does this mean you are FOR theocracy?

4.26.2010 | 4:31pm
Diacanu says:
Warren-

"And there we have it. Stephen Kennamer's comments really let the cat out of the bag - namely, that modern "atheism" is just another name for left-liberalism".

I'd be interested to know what ideas you disagree with DON'T get lumped in with "left-liberalism".

4.26.2010 | 5:55pm
severalspeciesof says:
Liam says:
"I think the most egregious fault with the book is that it doesn't even get basic history right--when even a simple wikipedia search could have prevented. His writings concerning Soviet Russia, Communist China, what Jesus actually *said*, and New Testament history is enough to prove the point. And of course, he is a microcosm for the New Atheism as a whole, which suffers from the same issues."

Could you be a bit more specific? Actual quotes (even paraphrasing would be okay) would be nice...

4.26.2010 | 5:57pm
Ambidexter says:
Hart essentially complains "atheists don't know all the nuances of theology, therefore how can they claim god doesn't exist?" Does Hart believe in Huitzilopochtli? Does he know why human hearts had to be offered to this deity every day? Or does he just dismiss Huitzilopochtli without knowing all the details of Huitzilopochtlian theology? When Hart shows he's familiar with the peculiarities of Huitzilopochtlism then I'll consider learning the specifics of his favored flavor of goddism.

I fail to understand why knowing whether angels dancing on the heads of pins are waltzing or doing the macarena is important when the existence of angels is being questioned.

4.26.2010 | 6:22pm
Alphonsus says:
@ Scott:

"No, but I admit I don't see your point."

Why do you object to the atheist being held up to a, for lack of a better term, "standard of profundity," but not the Christian? All I basically did yo Hart's statement was change "atheist" to "Christian" and "reject" to "affirm."

@ The Bible Also Says:

"You can use words as peacock feathers and convince yourself that you are a really, really smart fellow, but if you can't grasp the simple logic behind this quote you're really not that smart after all."

There is not "simple logic" behind that Twain quote. It's just an assertion, put forward without any argumentation. It tells us about Twain's psychology and little else.

4.26.2010 | 6:56pm
Scott Scheule says:
Alphonsus,

Where did I ever object to the atheist being held up to a "standard of profundity?" I haven't, to my knowledge, and still don't.

4.26.2010 | 7:09pm
Alphonsus says:
@ Scott:

'Where did I ever object to the atheist being held up to a "standard of profundity?" I haven't, to my knowledge, and still don't.'

Didn't you object to Hart's standard?

4.26.2010 | 7:33pm
Warren says:
@Dan Balmat,

Thanks for conceding much of my point - that was easy! - but, like David Hart, I was not attempting to make any argument against atheism. For one thing, I'm not aware of any arguments FOR atheism that have not been completely demolished for more than a thousand years, so I don't see the need. I was merely pointing out that modern atheism is not so much a philosophy as a stance used to buttress a political agenda. This does not necessarily mean that it is untrue, of course.

@severalspeciesof,

When you say "Twin Towers, plus Religion", I gather that you think the 9/11 atrocities might just as plausibly been caused by Bahais or Buddhists as by Muslims? Railing against a purely abstract concept like "Religion" will not carry you very far.

I did not forget the "excellent appraisal by Stephen" - I merely did not think it was excellent ("silly" was actually the word that came to mind).

And my comments were not meant to suggest that I am "for" theocracy, but were rather intended to imply that the threat of Christian theocracy in the West is a laughably paranoid fantasy of left-liberals. You folks swept the elections in 2008, or didn't you notice? (I will admit that the threat of a Muslim theocracy in the West's future is slightly more plausible.)

@Diacanu,

Well, for a start, I don't agree with tribal animistic beliefs, or ancestor worship, or Sharia law, or the Laws of Manu, or the Buddhist "anatta" doctrine, or Taoist alchemy. That covers the great majority of the world's population, and I don't believe that any of those beliefs are "left-liberal" in a Western sense. For what it's worth (not much, but you asked).

4.26.2010 | 7:34pm
MikeTheInfidel says:
CPE Gaebler said: "I've tried to explain that their cries for a more rigorous definition of God is unnecessary for the purposes of this specific article."

How can you possibly not understand that it is intellectually dishonest to claim that someone is attacking a straw man version of God when you're not willing to say what God *actually is*? This is Carl Sagan's "invisible dragon in the garage" all over again.

4.26.2010 | 7:52pm
Adam Tanner says:
@Ambidexter
"
You say: Hart essentially complains "atheists don't know all the nuances of theology, therefore how can they claim god doesn't exist?"

No he doesn't. He doesn't say anything of the sort, and doesn't make any blanket claims about atheists at all. He does point out that the New Atheists are unacquainted with the basic arguments of the metaphysical traditions they think they are refuting. That is unarguably true. No serious academic philosopher, theist or atheist or agnostic, takes Dawkins seriously.

Did you actually bother to read the article? And, if you did, do you know how to read?

4.26.2010 | 8:12pm
Scott Scheule says:
Alphonsus,

No. You can read upthread and see for yourself. I simply pointed somebody attacking that standard to the proper target. I took no stance.

4.26.2010 | 8:16pm
Liam says:
To severalspeciesof:

"Could you be a bit more specific? Actual quotes (even paraphrasing would be okay) would be nice..."

Sure. I'm not some great authority, merely an undergraduate history student (which seriously means I don't know anything--I'll not deny that), but that is what I gathered from the book. Here are some examples of the faults I found with it:

For more recent history, Dawkins was trying to defend the proposition that atheism would be better for the world. So, naturally, he dealt with the objections that terrible tyrants like Stalin was an atheist. Dawkins tried to argue (on page 315 of the paperback edition) that, while communist dictators may have been atheists, they did not kill in the name of atheism. This is untrue. Now, Stalin may never (I don't think he did...) have personally murdered someone for being religious, but widespread persecution of religion--specifically Christianity--took place under the aegis of the nominally atheist state. Priests were tortured, exiled, or killed, and the "League of the Militant Godless" attacked religion in a myriad of ways. The League predated Stalin, but he too was very militant in his atheism.

Likewise, Mao (who Dawkins conveniently does not even mention) ordered the "Destruction of the Four Olds" at the beginning of the Cultural Revolution. This led to the same thing in China, where religious people were targeted. I believe one popular slogan at the time was "Destroy the Jesus Following" or something along those lines. Again, many religious people (as well as "western" intellectuals) were tortured and killed.

It's hard to view this as anything other than religious persecution at the hands of atheists--whether they were intoxicated by Marxism seems to be beside the point (Marxism is of course atheist anyway). I don't really understand why this needs to be argued. Even if atheists committed atrocities doesn't mean that atheism isn't true--it just means that atheists, as well as Christians, have committed atrocities. Which of course just takes us back to square one--people do terrible things no matter what their creed.

As for ancient history, Dawkins writes on page 121 that the Gospels were "chosen more or less arbitrarily out of a larger sample of at least a dozen", which is also not true. Almost everyone dates the gnostic gospels in at least the 2nd to the 4th century AD. Not even the most liberal scholars date the NT Gospels (with the sometimes exception of John) past the first century. The only one that seems to make an argument for an early date would be the Gospel of Thomas, which is sometimes placed (especially by those at the Jesus Seminar) as early as 50 AD. There is, however, debate about this. Thomas is just a collection of aphorisms, so it is hard to establish a context for it to date it, and it does seem to feature some blatantly un-Jesus-like quotes. However, despite the Seminar, most scholars place it from the mid-to-late second century.

But even so, supposing Thomas *could* be dated early, there's no reason to say that the gospels were chosen "arbitrarily" from however many sources. The gospels were chosen because the church believed them to be the oldest sources they could find, written by those who they believed were closest to Jesus. Again, that has no bearing on Christianity's veracity, but it certainly was anything but *arbitrary*.

Lastly, Dawkins tries to smear Jesus' reputation as a great moral teacher on page 291-92, where he argues that what he meant by "Love your neighbor" was "love your fellow Jew." Dawkins then argues based entirely on one paper that Paul invented the whole "take the religion to the Gentiles" thing and that Jesus was probably more xenophobic. It's hard to take this seriously, especially since Jesus used the story of the "Good Samaritan" to illustrate his point. And a Samaritan is, as we know (gasp!) a half-Jew! Not only that, but the Samaritans also despised the Jews (and vice versa). Jesus used this story to illustrate who the *true* neighbor was. Also, Jesus said to "love your enemies," but this doesn't jive with Dawkins' interpretation so he leaves it out (he also leaves out that the Old Testament commands the same thing). And then there is, of course, the Grand Commission, where Jesus tells his disciples to "make disciples of all nations." Which, obviously, is not ethnocentric.

So, there are some of the examples that I remembered most vividly. Hope that helps.

I'd also be glad if anyone could help clarify if they see me also making some historical errors. We have to be careful about these things.

4.26.2010 | 8:24pm
Diacanu says:
Adam Tanner-

"No serious academic philosopher, theist or atheist or agnostic, takes Dawkins seriously".

So, Daniel Dennett isn't a serious academic philosopher?

4.26.2010 | 9:09pm
Papalinton says:
Generally to all on this site:

and James Holt 10.22am

Whoa, boys and girls. Pull in the reins.
This debate is getting us nowhere. Positions are hardening. Time to apply Occam's Razor - that is, keep it simple, substantive, grounded. THERE. IS. NO. GOD.
Not one scintilla of information has been offered for the existence of a god, in all its morphing manifestations, either by Hart, Aquinas, Tertullian, Falwell, Wright (NT), Hinn, Swaggert, Iraeneas, Marcion, Benedict XVI and the Phelps family.

There is not one hint of gods, either when one peers into the bubbling blackened cast-iron cauldron of quantum mechanics at one end of the spectrum to the ether above us at the other; Not one; except what is in our head (a matter of brain function and brain status).

My philosophy is grounded in the known and working towards the unknown, a wonderful and fulfilling enterprise.

I am not sure I am sophisticated enough or smart enough, like Mr Hart and others, to work within a philosophy that is grounded in the unknown (a priori), operating from god's perspective, and working back to the known (to justify their presuppositions).
Yes, you are right. I confess. On this basis, I just don't get it. It beggars 'belief', for want of a better word.

4.26.2010 | 9:47pm
The Bible ALSO Says says:
@Alphonsus

RE: "The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also." - Mark Twain

You said - "There is not "simple logic" behind that Twain quote. It's just an assertion, put forward without any argumentation. It tells us about Twain's psychology and little else."

Well then, first prove that there IS, in fact, a "Creator God", then, prove that THAT "Creator God" is an intercessory, prayer answering, non-believer-judging, Hell-sending, Heaven granting God and then once you have accomplished all of that, now prove that that Jesus Christ is THAT God.

Then we can ask the same of your Muslim and Jewish counterparts and see how convincing they can be regarding their religion and their "God".

Christians love to play the Deist to Theist to Christian to Jesus game. But seeing as one can't possibly prove the existence of a "Creator God" in the first place, any one of any religion would be hard-pressed to defend against a claim that all religions are false, let alone prove that their religion is the one true religion.

See if you get this logic, the debate shouldn't be "Does God Exist" - The debate SHOULD be "Are the "Revealed" Organized Religions, their Holy Books and God Products complete man-made fabrications?" Which they absolutely and provably are. And long before we have to discuss the existence of some "Creative Entity or Force" all religions collapse under the tremendous weight of their own.... uh.... baloney let's say.

Whether or not there is any "Creator God" (probably not) the God's or "God Products"of every and all brands of religion have nothing to do with it, except for the spurious claims of linkage by their self-promoting brand to achieve control, power and money.

Anyone that claims their religion is true is simply making a baseless and arrogant statement with nothing but their faith (opinion) to back it up.

But, you probably won't see any logic in all that either.

4.26.2010 | 9:58pm
Jackson says:
If there are 10,000 religions, surely atheists are fair and objective, and for each religion take the view of the other 9999.

4.26.2010 | 10:05pm
Quickbeam says:
I am a strong supporter of the general drift of the New Atheists' writing, despite having spent a number of years singing at and participating in the ritual of a very high, very liberal (US) Episcopal parish.

But I begin to wonder if we (the New Atheists) shouldn't concentrate our efforts not on the concept of God, which is so wriggly, but rather on the ideas of the soul and the afterlife.

It is scientifically clear that the (very seductive) feeling we have of being a soul living in a body is hokum: our thoughts, including that thought, are electrochemical patterns within our nervous systems. There is no soul in the sense of something that could possibly survive death.

And while mainstream Christians are reasonably benign in their effect on the world, the Christians who hold that it doesn't matter what violence we humans do to the world, because God is about to end it all anyway - those Christians are, in my view, insane and very dangerous.

4.26.2010 | 10:20pm
Grad Student says:
I second Liam's comment (4.26.2010, 3:49pm). It stands out as something unheard of, a thoughtful comment hundreds of comments into the thread!

Money quote:

"... I feel like there needs to be a lot more inter-faith dialogue between Christians and atheists, and more love, because we are all "in this together," so to speak.

It's for this reason that the New Atheism is such a tragedy, I think. Because when such huge issues are on the line, misinformation and errors [on the part of the New Atheists] will only hurt the search, and impede the search for truth. They can offer nothing else."

As a scientist who leans philosophically towards naturalism, I feel compelled to agree with Liam, a Christian. Scientists like me who tend towards atheism/agnosticism need to recognize our lack of knowledge in philosophical matters related to God. In the meantime, let's figure out how to have fruitful interfaith dialogue between atheists and theists.

4.26.2010 | 10:30pm
jomega says:
Dang, that's about the biggest spew of logorrhoea i've worked my way through in a while, David, and you never address the main problem most unbelievers have with this twaddle: You religious folks claim there's this invisible magic dude out there somewhere (everywhere? whatever.), yet again and again, you fail to provide any credible evidence that this is the case. I've seen more evidence for Santa Claus, but I managed to figure out he wasn't real when I was seven or eight. Until you can show some proof that your god is anything more than your imaginary friend, a lot of reasonable people are going to think yo're either making things up, or just funny in the head.

4.26.2010 | 10:54pm
Mark Durie says:
Re Hart's remark: "For instance, [Hitchens] denounces female circumcision, commendably enough, but what—pray tell—has that got to do with religion? Clitoridectomy is a widespread cultural tradition of sub-Saharan Africa, but it belongs to no particular creed."

This is quite untrue, and as such it is emblematic of the problems surrounding discussion of Islam today.

Thank you to Peter West for referencing my book The Third Choice. Female Circumcision is absolutely a part of Islam, because Muhammad commended the practice. Shafi'i jurisprudence treats Clitoridectomy as obligatory, while for other schools of Sunni law it is either commended or merely optional. This is why the practice is most established Shafi'i jurisdictions, such as among the Kurds in Indonesia, in Shafi'i areas of Saudi Arabia, and in Egypt.
Yes, for Christians in Sudan who practice FGM, the practice is not religious, but for Muslims who follow it, the practice is clearly understood to be based on the teachings and practice of Muhammad himself.
The details are in The Third Choice, which provides numerous references to authoritative Muslim scholars on this issue.

4.26.2010 | 11:49pm
Mims H. Carter says:
I am getting as weary of the argument that the New Atheists don't understand this metaphysical concept of the divine as the 'ground of being' and depict all believers as superstitious cretins as Mr. Hart is of the alleged intellectual shallowness of the New Atheists. Mr. Hart presents his view of the divine, based on the good old argument from contingency. He admits that this argument has been swatted down pretty good by Hume and others (he doesn't include Immanuel Kant, for some reason) and admits that this argument in itself isn't sufficient for proof of the divine, but must be expanded and supported by other arguments, which he does not present.

While I have had many stimulating and enjoyable conversations with believers along these lines, most of the believers I have met do not believe in the metaphysical ground of being god. They actually do believe in the simply much bigger and much earlier type of god. Those are the ones that I cannot reason with on important issues, such as the proper role of science in society, the separation of church and state, whether creationism should be taught in science classes, science-based sex education for our children, the role of sex in human social life, the ethics of human enhancement, when human life begins, in short, a broad range of issues ranging from the factual to the moral. The truth is, for most people I have encountered, and for most religious figures I have read or read about, from Mother Teresa to Billy Graham, from William Lane Craig to Pat Robertson, religion is an intellectual and moral prison. As much as Mr. Hart longs for intellectually and morally courageous atheists like Nietzche and Hume, I long for religious thinkers like Paul Tillich, Reinhold Neibuhr, Hans Kung. Find a way to teach the masses their view of god. I would live happily among believers then, arguing about whether the argument from continency implies one divine non-contingent ground of being, or whether many non-contingent grounds of being are equally possible, or how the physicists' definition of nothing is different from the theologians concept of nothing, instead of trying to convince them that the GLBT community has the same human rights as anyone else even if the bible says they are an abomination, or that stem cell research is a good thing.

4.27.2010 | 1:00am
Papalinton says:
To; Liam and

Grad student:

Simple question. Do both of you know that there is a god? When you pray to your god, what forms or images usually jump into your mind ? To complete the communication loop in your mind, that is to have a sender-a message-a receiver link, in order to provide your mind some sense of completion, some sense of order, a feedback loop of some kind so that you feel that your pray is not going to be left out there hanging in the breeze so to speak, do you anthropomorphize the receiving end, do you pray to a quantum vacuum, do you pray to the uncaused cause (and what does that look like?)?

Please be really honest. I am genuinely interested to know what it is that forms in your mind when you pray to your god. I have been baptized, confirmed, I have been immersed in and swum in the sea of faith, with no avail.
Please let me know.

4.27.2010 | 1:37am
Kel says:
A couple of things.

In regard to Dawkins' ultimate 747 argument, it's one derived from a posteriori observation. The observation made is that our only knowledge of designers that can represent their goals as thoughts need to be complex. The brain in order to design is both complex and highly ordered. To call a designer "simple" is engaging in special pleading. Dismissing the argument by contending that "We can all happily concede that no complex, ubiquitous, omniscient, and omnipotent superbeing, inhabiting the physical cosmos and subject to the rules of evolution, exists. But who has ever suggested the contrary?" is missing the point of what the argument is. It's not saying that people's conceptions of God is an evolved superbeing, but that any notion of a designer as we understand it must be.

As for the claim about atheism being bought cheaply, it misses the point that theism is not only freely given but a forced gift to people who don't know better. Why should God - the Christian God be a starting point? Many of the arguments from the "new atheists" are talking about the historical contingency by which we are having this discussion. If this were in Iran, the new atheists would be against the Islamic conception of God. Or in India, it would be against the gods of Hinduism. The question is not why would we reject God, but why we should accept him in the first place?

4.27.2010 | 2:12am
Liam says:
To Papalinton:

I appreciate your snide remarks, but why did you tie Grad Student in to your post? Did you even read what he wrote? He said he favors naturalism. Why are you asking him about "when he prays to his God"? He does not have a belief in God. Does agreeing with a Christian (gasp!) on the necessity of having good manners automatically lump him in with "theism"?

You might have convinced me that you were truly interested in hearing an answer, but the fact that you didn't even bother to see what Grad Student actually believed makes that unlikely.

I'll just leave it at that. Sorry to disappoint, though I hope you might get a good answer to your question some day (provided you ask the right person).

4.27.2010 | 3:26am
NakedCelt says:
Ye Olde Statistician says (answering my comment):
{------To be fair to the IDers, they don't seem to require a designer for merely "complex" things, but for a specific kind of complexity. Of course, looking for God in this or that microbiological mechanism is like looking for Frank Whittle by carefully measuring the components of a jet engine. The error made by IDers, Dawkinsites, and others of that stripe is the same: the existence of Frank Whittle is not an engineering problem.------}

A point I was carefully trying to pre-empt with these remarks (which I note ye Statistician hasn't quoted):
{------This is not "the rules of evolution", nor does it require that the being in question "inhabit the physical cosmos". It is true by definition: this is what "complex" means... You can take your complex creator, pull him "outside time", shove him into a separate "supernatural realm" or Platonic "World of Forms" or an unimplemented data structure or whatever you like.------}
This was rather a key point, so I feel a little justified in being put out that it's been missed. Information theory is a branch of mathematics; its conclusions hold independently of the platform on which the information is implemented. You cannot get outside of its domain without also abandoning logic, which I've a feeling Thomists would be somewhat hesitant to do.
It is information theory that provides the answer to ye Statistician's question:
{------How do the atheists and IDers know how probable or improbable a given thing might be? We tend to confuse "I can't see how this could happen" with "it is a highly improbable event." But the universe need not conform itself to the state of our ignorance.------}
(Ironically, minus "atheists and" in the first sentence, that might almost be a quote from Dawkins...)
Information is a matter of pruning away possibilities. If you find a shapeless dimple in the ground, the number of reasonably plausible causes for its existence are manifold. Therefore, it contains very little information. If you find a footprint, however, there is only one reasonably plausible cause for its existence: it was placed there by the pressure of the foot of some particular animal -- it's highly improbable that it was caused by anything else. The information content of the footprint is, broadly speaking, the base-2 logarithm of the inverse of that tiny residual probability.
The unit of information is the bit. A bit of information content represents a halving of the uncertainty. It's rarely easy to measure that precisely in natural systems, which is why we turn to mechanical ones for simple familiar examples: a switch that can be up or down, on or off -- exactly two possible states, so that learning which one it's actually in neatly halves our previous uncertainty.
Computers are made of millions of tiny switches, each of which can be set to 1 (on) or 0 (off). Their information capacity is measured in bytes -- a byte is eight bits, representing 2^8 = 256 possible states. Contemporary computers can hold gigabytes (billions of bytes) to terabytes (trillions of bytes) of information.
There is, in fact, one natural system that works very similarly to a computer -- uncannily similarly, when you consider the computer was invented before this natural system's workings were fully known. That natural system is the genome. As I said, it's seldom easy to measure a natural system's information content very precisely. But it is easy with the genome. There are precisely four possibilities for each codon; that is two potential halvings of uncertainty, or two bits.
Computers were of course originally invented in the hope of simulating the brain, but this goal is still a long way off (and its desirability is under serious dispute). The brain, unlike the genome, does not work like a computer.

Ye Olde Statistician went on to argue:
{------But in theology, God is conceived as irreducibly simple, and not composed of parts. Any composite being contains a mixture of actuality and potentiality. For example, a genome string actually codes for a certain protein, but potentially codes for some other protein via mutation to one or more of the codons comprising it. But in tradionally theology God is shown by deduction to be purely actual, containing no potentiality - which is why he is sometimes called Existence Itself. It makes no sense to say "Existence exists by virtue of being composed of simpler components in a highly improbable configuration." One simply says, "Existence exists."------}
I'm not clear what talking about "actuality" and "potentiality" adds to the discussion here, apart from erecting a back door for God to sneak in through. To have no "potentiality" God would have to have no other possible states than his actual state, which would mean his information content would be 0; whereas, to be omniscient, his information content must be at least as great as that of the universe. High information content necessarily implies high complexity. If traditional theology says otherwise, traditional theology is incorrect.

Ye Olde Statistician says:
{------Aquinas (Oh, dude! He is so yesterday!) made no such argument. He did argue from the lawfulness of nature. (And distinguished carefully between nature and artifact.) That is, it was the lawfulness of nature, per se, and not the alleged "exceptions," that provided the basis for his proof. Darwin's Laws (insofar as they are laws - I've never seen the equations) would provide mild support for the existence of God by providing one more demonstration of the lawfulness and directedness of nature.------}
Strange, then, that the "laws" of nature are mostly turning out to be probabilistic -- though I'd ask a quantum physicist or a thermodynamicist about that, rather than a statistician.
{------Both the IDers and the Dawkinsites are anxious to see nature as an artifact. E.g., the brain is a computer, the solar system is a clock. Genetic "engineering". And so on. They've talked up nature-as-artifact so much that both sides now confuse metaphor with fact. But behind the artifact is the niggling thought that there might be an artificer.------}
Quite the opposite: artifice is an extension of nature, via a particularly information-rich natural system known as the human brain. Well, usually human. Artifice is not unknown in other species.

4.27.2010 | 3:34am
papalinton says:
To: David Hart,
To: All believers on this site,
When you are alone, quietly sitting, comfortable in the space around you and you close your eyes and begin to pray, "Dear Lord..........", what is the usual image that comes into your mind of that to which/whom you are communicating? Is it the ground of all being? What does that look like from your personal experience? Please describe for me, as truthfully and accurately as you can, what it is that emerges in your mind of that being to which you are talking to. Is it blurry? Is it diffuse? Is it sharp and clear? Is the image anthropomorphic? Is that to which you are praying the father, son and the holy spirit? In your mind's eye what does that look like to you, how do you perceive that in your mind? Is there any way that you can recount your images that will convince me of the existence of such a ground of all being.
I genuinely want to learn.

4.27.2010 | 4:41am
Maolsheachlann says:
You may think me delusional for being a Catholic. But it seems to me mere wilful obtuseness to look out at the world, and the universe, that seems to positively ooze meaning, purpose, beauty, goodness and intelligence and to believe that all these things are mere projections of the grey-pink goo inside our skulls.

A child looks at the world and does not see the radical contingency that we're to accept is the default assumption, the starting point. Nor have most human beings for hundreds of thousands of years. Naturalism is an attained viewpoint. This fact seems suggestive to me.

At least, I think so. I'll just have to take your word if you contradict me from your own personal intuitions. Nevertheless, please accept that I find your own shrugging acceptance as strange as you find my "imaginary friend".

One thing that bothers me, though, is the idea that the theory of evolution (or any scientific explanation) has somehow strengthened the atheistic worldview. Dawkins said Darwin made it possible to be an intellectual fulfilled atheist. But how? In every argument where causality, necessary being or some form of the cosmological argument or the argument from design or order is invoked, atheists say: explanations have to end somewhere, why can't the universe be its own explanation?, why should the universe be intelligible to us?, we would not be observing the universe if it couldn't produce intelligent life so "fine-tuning" arguments are pointless, "tortoises all the way down" and so on and so forth.

But all these arguments would apply just as much if there was no explanation for the arrival of human life or for consciousness. If you're going to take the Russellian view that "the universe is just there, that's all", why not, "the human race is just there, that's all?" or "intelligence is just there, that's all?". Why should any explanation be required for anything?

I'm not a philosopher or a theologian or a scientist. These considerations motivate my own beliefs. I don't consider them perverse or bizarre at all. I can only put them out there as a justification for my own belief and my own inability to accept the naturalistic worldview.

4.27.2010 | 5:08am
Elliott Bignell says:
Ye Olde Statistician - "Not if you think that {all things must be illuminated by something else} is analogous to the cosmological argument. You only prove Dr. Hart's point that the critics do not seem to understand the arguments they think they are refuting."

You seem to be confirming the point made by a number of other posters that these "arguments" for gods are hopelessly confused. The argument from infinite regress is very simple and in no way requires an anology, which is presumably why I had to illustrate that Dr. Hart's choice of analogy was artificially weak. Hart was using a weak analogy because a stronger and more correspondent analogy would have made the opposite impression to that required.

Either there is something which requires no explanation or there is not any such thing. If there is no such thing then introducing gods has no explanatory value; it merely defers the question to what the next explanation is. If there is such a thing, then introducing gods has no explanatory value unless gods are explicitly justified; there is no default reason for presuming that it is not the universe itself which requires no explanation. The argument from infinite regress dispatches the specific claim that gods are required to explain ultimate origins, and cannot be refuted. It does not address any other claims.

The cosmological argument fails for related reasons. It only provides a spurious justification for believing that there must be a First Cause; it does not provide any justification for associating this First Cause with any specific religious concept or for dissociating it from the Universe itself. The First Cause might just as well be the Big Bang, for all the light the Cosmological Argument casts on the question.

The simple fact of it is that there are no gods there, and wherever you try to point to them they will not show up.

4.27.2010 | 5:08am
RMW says:
piero said:
RMW:
"If we are nothing more than some computer simulation, would pain, hunger, thirst and lust even matter?"

Of course they would. You might just as well had asked "if we are nothing more than some ensemble of molecules, would pain, hunger, thirst and lust even matter?"

The thing is, as I understand it, if we are still to be concerned with pain, hunger, thirst and lust despite being computer simulations, then at one practical level, how come we don't show more concern for ,say, the plight of Tamagotchi digital pets?
You may recall the Tamagotchi digital pets. They were a big hit and novelty when they came out in the 1990's (I was a teenager then and I've got classmates who bought the things by the truckload). If I recall correctly, the Tamagotchi pet is a simulated animal which will "feel" pain, hunger and thirst (I don't know about lust) if you "neglect" them and they may even "die" from such neglect. Where's the Tamagotchi rights movement?

4.27.2010 | 6:29am
Elliott Bignell says:
Ye Olde Statistician - "Proof by metaphor!"

No, just metaphor. I see your method more clearly now. Your arguments sound superficially plausible because you use names for arguments that contain terms common to the argument you are facing, but they never actually address what has been argued. Memes are a metaphor. They are not a "proof" of anything. "Metaphor" is shorthand for a form of the fallacy of equivocation, which is a touch ironic since it is exactly the one you perpetrate by leaping on the presence of a metaphor to allege the use of a metaphor as a proof.

"An evil is _defectus boni_, a deficiency or lacking of a good."

And vice versa. Your argument is equally consistent in the negation. This, incidentally, was the basis of Hume's destruction of knowledge based on logical consistency alone, divorced from empirical knowledge: that the negations of logically consistent statements are also logically consistent, and therefore not related to any objective concept of truth.

"But the lack of a thing is not itself a thing. (If you lack a walnut you don't somehow have something in your hand called a not-walnut.)"

So are good and evil "things" or are they not? If they are not, then it is perfectly possible to conceive of "not-good" being a concept on the same level as "good" and walnuts are actually red herrings, in an entirely different Phylum. If they are, then your previous statement that evils are not things is knowingly false. You are illustrating an alleged truth about not-things with an example of things - a useful synecdoche for the generally chaotic nature of theistic belief.

"The good is what all beings desire."

Even given that we might accept that all beings are able to form desires in the first place, this is mere circularity. Beings can - and do - conceive of mutually contradictory desires.

4.27.2010 | 6:57am
Ric says:
I cannot take anyone seriously when they start with a desperate conclusion-- that atheism is wrong-- and look for any shred of a reason to prove their conclusion true.

4.27.2010 | 6:59am
Michael says:
Mr David Hart

You are to be envied.

Not only are you "red of blood and rude of health" but you are also able to dismiss the faddish claims of sundry New Atheists with grandiloquent insouciance, comfortable in your own belief in "an absolute plenitude of actuality" and "the transcendent fullness of actuality".

But I am puzzled. Do these fullnesses and plenitudes of actuality part Red Seas, dictate holy books, die on crosses, rise from the dead, and answer prayers?

If they don't, does that mean that you as a believer in these abstruse notions live as if the God of popular monotheism does not exist? That is, do you live like an atheist?

I am also a little confused by your apparent admiration for Nietzsche as some kind of red blooded atheist.

Is this the same Nietzsche who in his "The Anti-Christ" said "'Faith' means not wanting to know what is true." (section 52), "great intellects are skeptics" (section 54) and that we have to win back "the free view of reality, the cautious hand, patience and seriousness in the smallest things, the whole integrity of knowledge", things he says were lost under Christianity (section 59)?

In your closing paragraph, you say Nietzsche understood "the enigma of the Christian event". Perhaps he did. In "The Anti-Christ" he was pretty clear that there was only ever one Christian (section 39), the man, not the god, who died on a cross after trying to show his followers a "life lived in love, love without deduction, or exclusion, without distance." (sections 29)

(Incidentally, I think it is a bit much for you to accuse Grayling of "elegant incomprehensibility" given the polysyllabic grandiloquence you adopted for "Believe It or Not".)

4.27.2010 | 7:27am
GFA says:
"Ye Olde Statistician says:
GFA sez:
Two apples, one apple, zero apples. There is nothing. Zero is a mathematical point on a line. When it comes to particles, zero doesn't exist. Start with nothing and something spontaneously exists.

But you aren't starting with nothing. You're starting with the vacuum energy. Particles, as mass, are equivalent to energy via e=mc^2. That is, the particles are already "there" in potency in the form of vacuum energy. Ditto, if "zero" is a point on a line, the line must exist for the zero point to exist. "Zero" is not "nothing." There is an important difference between a bank account with zero balance, and not having a bank account; between an empty glass and no glass."

If there is no water, it is not logically necessary for there to be a glass.

If there is no money it does not necessarily follow there is a bank account.

There might not be any "potency" overall in the vacuum. The sum of all energy (mass via e=mc^2) in the universe might be zero. Like double entry book keeping, where the sum of the money in all accounts is zero.

If the universe consists of nothing, it does not necessarily need a container.

Even if we suppose the universe does have a container, and we call the container "god", what relationship does the "god container" have on religious practice? What does it have to do with a human god nailed to a cross? Or, to use a crude phrase of the extreme christian right, is it true that "The universe container hates fags"?

4.27.2010 | 8:53am
John says:
Hart has shown that an emperor with no clothes may have an excellent vocabulary.

4.27.2010 | 9:10am
Warren says:
"I am genuinely interested to know what it is that forms in your mind when you pray to your god."

@Papalinton,

You didn't address this question to me, but since it seems like a sincere question, I'll take a stab at it.

The short answer is: anything that forms in one's mind during prayer should be ignored - totally, completely ignored. It will almost certainly be just mind noise, no matter how warm and fuzzy it may seem. This is the consistent advice of the great contemplatives from every religious tradition on Earth, not just Christianity.

To seek "proof" that God is there from the junk that pops into one's mind is to risk becoming hopelessly entangled in illusion. Rather, "Be still, and know that I am God."

As for knowing that God is there (which you also mentioned), that's a much bigger question.

4.27.2010 | 9:33am
Warren says:
"It is scientifically clear that the (very seductive) feeling we have of being a soul living in a body is hokum: our thoughts, including that thought, are electrochemical patterns within our nervous systems."

But why are you are making an exception of the thought you just expressed - namely, the thought that "our thoughts... are electrochemical patterns within our nervous systems"? You seem to give this particular thought privileged status - you seem to think that it is "true", even though it is just one more electrochemical pattern within a nervous system (yours).

Surely, if all our thoughts are merely electrochemical patterns in our nervous systems, then none of them can possibly be more "true" or "false" than any others. Our thoughts in that case are just a random natural phenomenon, like wind in the trees or ripples on a lake. Is wind in the trees more "true" than ripples on a lake? The question is obviously meaningless.

That's my main beef with modern atheists - they are not nearly sceptical enough.

4.27.2010 | 9:48am
Scott Scheule says:
Quickbeam:

"It is scientifically clear that the (very seductive) feeling we have of being a soul living in a body is hokum: our thoughts, including that thought, are electrochemical patterns within our nervous systems. There is no soul in the sense of something that could possibly survive death."

The dualist case must be taken seriously.

http://consc.net/consc-papers.html

4.27.2010 | 10:06am
Adam Tanner says:
@Diacanu, Kel, Mims H. Carter:

Diacanu: Daniel Dennett is an academic philosopher, if not a very good one. All his big books tend to be philosophical failures. But that's not important, because he too does not take Richard Dawkins seriously as a philosopher. He likes him and is on board with the program, but you will never see him repeating or endorsing the argument Dawkins makes in ch. 4 of GD. It would be more than Dennett's reputation is worth. He just chooses to bite his tongue and murmur "Hallelujah". In fact, even among my genuinely atheist colleagues in the guild, I can't find one who doesn't find Dawkins' attempts at philosophy embarrassing.

Why is this big deal? Why would you expect a second-tier zoologist and scientific popularizer, with no training even in basic logic, to understand how philosophical arguments work? I don't expect most philosophers to be good at explaining what phenotypes are or in weighing in on the recent debates in genetic theory.

Kel: That's interesting if theists are positing the existence of a large corporeal being with a brain running things extrinsically, and so on. But since there's a long philosophical and religious tradition that says that that's not what God is, and in fact such a God is an impossibility, it seems odd to try to defeat religious philosophy by restating what it already concedes. Again, though, the problem is that you guys don't understand what the words simplicity and complexity mean here. But what's the point of trying to explain? You seem not to want to get the point. You assume that creation means designing something like a technician, and that means the work of a complex brain, and so, since such a being is an absurdity, there is no God. Fine and dandy definition for a deist who believes in a finite god somewhere in the universe doing impressive things or a non-deist who does not believe in that God. It certainly has no bearing on Hart, who is not a deist, or on common Christians who think that God is infinite spirit. There, if you want to score points, you first have to get the terms and the arguments right.

AND AGAIN: Hart did not say atheism as a rule is cheaply bought! He said that the New Atheists fail to be real and rigorous skeptics (like Hume) and so have bought their version of atheism (which they insist on putting in print) cheaply.

MHC: Stop talking about the ground of being. Hart never said anything like that. He dislikes Tillich, in fact. The notion that the transcendent God is the source and end of all being, and that all contingent reality is a participation in the infinite actuality of God, is as old as Christianity and older. It is just basic traditional metaphysics, whose religious form is the claim that "God is spirit" and "in him all things live, move, and have their being." And his point in the article is that Dawkins' clumsy argument is about a god no one believes in anyway, and simply begs the philosophical questions.

As for why Hart doesn't mention Kant in the article, it might be because Kant was neither an atheist nor a skeptic, and his arguments against certain metaphysical propositions are not at all relevant to the topic of the article. And, of course, Kant's antinomies of reason are matters of considerable debate in the philosophical world, and hardly amount to a clear proof of anything. Hart has written a great deal on Kant, though, if you want to look for it. It's on the technical side, though.

I do wish the NA wouldn't keep invoking the names of philosophers they clearly haven't read, but think they know from other people's thumbnail sketches. Hitchens is the worst in that regard.

4.27.2010 | 10:14am
Alphonsus says:
@ The Bible ALSO Says:

'Well then, first prove that there IS, in fact, a "Creator God", then, prove that THAT "Creator God" is an intercessory, prayer answering, non-believer-judging, Hell-sending, Heaven granting God and then once you have accomplished all of that, now prove that that Jesus Christ is THAT God.'

I notice you didn't really defend the Twain quote. Anyway, I'm not really sure how to respond to your nigh impossible demand that I basically produce 2000 years or so of theology and philosophy of religion in a combox. I suppose I could recommend some books, but would you actually go through the effort of studying them?

4.27.2010 | 10:15am
Adam Tanner says:
@The Bible ALSO says, jomega

TBAS: In saying that all religions are man-made (or let's be non-sexist and say human-made) you are saying something Hart has repeatedly said in print. He is pretty radical in describing the material history of the Bible and Christianity and religious ideas in general. So what?

As for Christians playing "the Deist to Theist to Christian to Jesus game," there may be lots of folks around who do that, but certainly not Hart. And I still don't know what that has to do with this article.

jomega: How do you know what proof there is or isn't? Just curious. How deeply have you really gone into this?

4.27.2010 | 10:16am
Alphonsus says:
@ Scott:

"No. You can read upthread and see for yourself. I simply pointed somebody attacking that standard to the proper target. I took no stance."

Sorry for my misunderstanding.

4.27.2010 | 10:19am
Christian says:
Such verbiage, reminds me of the Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams in discussion with Richard Dawkins. Williams was poetic but sadly without any substance. David Hart throws in Übermensch into his article, granted most people run to the hills at this stage however sticking to the last (and most honest) sentence. I can confirm that I’ll quite easily turn away, with or without the so called new atheists. It’s clear to me that what David views as a as heart felt agony, I see as a practiced torture death used to quell the locals. Be they criminals or out of turn philosophers. Will future historians view articles like this in painful embarrassment? Maybe.

4.27.2010 | 10:48am
Scott Scheule says:
Adam:

"[Dennett] likes him and is on board with the program, but you will never see him repeating or endorsing the argument Dawkins makes in ch. 4 of GD."

Dennett's review of the God Delusion is here: http://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/papers/dawkinsreview.pdf

Quote:

"I give short shrift to the task of rebutti