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	<title>Comments on: Re: The New Theistic Evolutionists</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/06/12/re-the-new-theistic-evolutionists/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Jerry</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/06/12/re-the-new-theistic-evolutionists/comment-page-1/#comment-853</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 01:06:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=3951#comment-853</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Believing in God is not a random chance of rolling the dice. I&#039;m not sure where you get that info.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Believing in God is not a random chance of rolling the dice. I&#8217;m not sure where you get that info.</p>
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		<title>By: Barr on faith and evolution &#171; A Thinking Reed</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/06/12/re-the-new-theistic-evolutionists/comment-page-1/#comment-675</link>
		<dc:creator>Barr on faith and evolution &#171; A Thinking Reed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Jun 2009 14:32:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=3951#comment-675</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] to note that Stephen Barr has been writing some excellent posts on Christianity and evolution (see here, here, and [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to note that Stephen Barr has been writing some excellent posts on Christianity and evolution (see here, here, and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Peeler</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/06/12/re-the-new-theistic-evolutionists/comment-page-1/#comment-622</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Peeler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 21:09:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=3951#comment-622</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree that God can (obviously) direct random processes. But that doesn&#039;t seem to be the issue to me. The issue, rather, is what does reason applied to the evidence that &quot;we&quot; have, tell us? Clearly, we can distinguish between directed and random processes and equally clearly darwinian or neo-darwinian evolution fails miserably to account for life. More on that in a moment.

If evolutionary theory says &quot;nobody did it&quot; - and it does, and theistic evolutionists say that God did it, then we have the spectacle of God saying that &quot;nobody did it.&quot; I see a bit of a logical problem here.

Any materialistic account of life must account for information. This means that the laws of physics must be able to account for information. But this is impossible. Information requires language and language requires symbols and rules and physics has nothing to say about either symbols or rules. Never has, never will. Therefore, not only is darwinian evolution not true, it is not even possible for it to be true. Francis Collins and anyone who thinks that God &quot;did it&quot; by &quot;not doing it&quot; needs to rethink their position.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that God can (obviously) direct random processes. But that doesn&#8217;t seem to be the issue to me. The issue, rather, is what does reason applied to the evidence that &#8220;we&#8221; have, tell us? Clearly, we can distinguish between directed and random processes and equally clearly darwinian or neo-darwinian evolution fails miserably to account for life. More on that in a moment.</p>
<p>If evolutionary theory says &#8220;nobody did it&#8221; &#8211; and it does, and theistic evolutionists say that God did it, then we have the spectacle of God saying that &#8220;nobody did it.&#8221; I see a bit of a logical problem here.</p>
<p>Any materialistic account of life must account for information. This means that the laws of physics must be able to account for information. But this is impossible. Information requires language and language requires symbols and rules and physics has nothing to say about either symbols or rules. Never has, never will. Therefore, not only is darwinian evolution not true, it is not even possible for it to be true. Francis Collins and anyone who thinks that God &#8220;did it&#8221; by &#8220;not doing it&#8221; needs to rethink their position.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony Pagano</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/06/12/re-the-new-theistic-evolutionists/comment-page-1/#comment-497</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony Pagano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 18:11:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=3951#comment-497</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[While the Catholic Church teaches that God is omniscient I am not aware of anything in Scripture, Tradition or pronouncements from the Magisterium which teach that God wills every cause, effect and action in His creation.   We know what God &quot;wills&quot; only to the extent that He has revealed His will.  

Barr instead makes the argumentative leap that because God knows all that He therefore willed every cause, effect, and act.  There are no Catholic doctrines which could convert this formal fallacy into a valid (and true) conclusion. This, more or less, collapses Barr&#039;s position.

Barr&#039;s &quot;Risk&quot; game analogy hardly illustrates his guess that God willed random mutations over time to explain the origin of biological diversity.  In the game &quot;Risk&quot; it is not the random dice rolls which have any role in some coherent, progressive outcome (or disaster), it is by the explicit design of the intelligent agent player.  The dice rolls serve mostly to limit the freedom of the intelligent agent.  There is no basis of resemblance between the things compared and hence the analogy is flawed.

Barr proposed nothing new under the sun concerning theistic evolutionism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While the Catholic Church teaches that God is omniscient I am not aware of anything in Scripture, Tradition or pronouncements from the Magisterium which teach that God wills every cause, effect and action in His creation.   We know what God &#8220;wills&#8221; only to the extent that He has revealed His will.  </p>
<p>Barr instead makes the argumentative leap that because God knows all that He therefore willed every cause, effect, and act.  There are no Catholic doctrines which could convert this formal fallacy into a valid (and true) conclusion. This, more or less, collapses Barr&#8217;s position.</p>
<p>Barr&#8217;s &#8220;Risk&#8221; game analogy hardly illustrates his guess that God willed random mutations over time to explain the origin of biological diversity.  In the game &#8220;Risk&#8221; it is not the random dice rolls which have any role in some coherent, progressive outcome (or disaster), it is by the explicit design of the intelligent agent player.  The dice rolls serve mostly to limit the freedom of the intelligent agent.  There is no basis of resemblance between the things compared and hence the analogy is flawed.</p>
<p>Barr proposed nothing new under the sun concerning theistic evolutionism.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/06/12/re-the-new-theistic-evolutionists/comment-page-1/#comment-496</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 14:22:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=3951#comment-496</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am missing something here. Are you discussing randomness in the sense of the unpredictibility in quantum mechanics? I thought determinism was only knocked-down when the probabilistic nature of quantum was discovered. But  gene mutation isn&#039;t a quantum process. Mr. Barr, when you quote Modern Genetics: &quot;There is no way of knowing whether a given gene will mutate in a particular cell or in a particular generation,&#039; because the mutations&#039; are unoriented with respect to adaptation.&#039;&quot; are you implicitly agreeing that gene mutation is akin to quantum change? Isn&#039;t the &quot;no way of knowing&quot; the outcome of gene mutation more likely a result of truly &quot;hidden variables?&quot;  

I can understand how quantum mechanics negates determinism on the quantum level, but I don&#039;t see how biological evolution does. 

Now, of course, determinism need not be design, but it isn&#039;t randomness either, so why isn&#039;t  the &quot;hidden variables&quot; argument pertinent to biological evolution as it is, or was, in quantum mechanics?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am missing something here. Are you discussing randomness in the sense of the unpredictibility in quantum mechanics? I thought determinism was only knocked-down when the probabilistic nature of quantum was discovered. But  gene mutation isn&#8217;t a quantum process. Mr. Barr, when you quote Modern Genetics: &#8220;There is no way of knowing whether a given gene will mutate in a particular cell or in a particular generation,&#8217; because the mutations&#8217; are unoriented with respect to adaptation.&#8217;&#8221; are you implicitly agreeing that gene mutation is akin to quantum change? Isn&#8217;t the &#8220;no way of knowing&#8221; the outcome of gene mutation more likely a result of truly &#8220;hidden variables?&#8221;  </p>
<p>I can understand how quantum mechanics negates determinism on the quantum level, but I don&#8217;t see how biological evolution does. </p>
<p>Now, of course, determinism need not be design, but it isn&#8217;t randomness either, so why isn&#8217;t  the &#8220;hidden variables&#8221; argument pertinent to biological evolution as it is, or was, in quantum mechanics?</p>
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		<title>By: First Thoughts — A First Things Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/06/12/re-the-new-theistic-evolutionists/comment-page-1/#comment-495</link>
		<dc:creator>First Thoughts — A First Things Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 03:48:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=3951#comment-495</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] the Discovery Institute website, John G. West gives a three-part response to some things I said on this blog. In the first part he says: “Barr claims that ‘[w]hen scientists say that certain things in [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the Discovery Institute website, John G. West gives a three-part response to some things I said on this blog. In the first part he says: “Barr claims that ‘[w]hen scientists say that certain things in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/06/12/re-the-new-theistic-evolutionists/comment-page-1/#comment-442</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 12:20:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=3951#comment-442</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As an intelligent design advocate, I can agree with just about everything you said about randomness and theology.  God knows but does not determine, etc, etc.  The issue with evolution and biology is not theological.  Is evolution a game of chance like Monopoly or is it a game of chess, where each move is planned out ahead of time by intelligent forethought?  

&quot;What makes a series of dice rolls a “random sequence,” in the terminology of mathematics, is that there is no systematic correlation between the different rolls. That means that one cannot predict the outcome of a roll from knowing the outcomes of previous rolls or subsequent rolls of the dice. The rolls are “statistically independent” of each other.&quot;

It is exactly this sense of randomness, which you discuss at length and very well I might add, that intelligent design believes cannot be responsible for certain features of life.  The argument is not about the nature of randomness, but about how much this kind of randomness can actually do.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an intelligent design advocate, I can agree with just about everything you said about randomness and theology.  God knows but does not determine, etc, etc.  The issue with evolution and biology is not theological.  Is evolution a game of chance like Monopoly or is it a game of chess, where each move is planned out ahead of time by intelligent forethought?  </p>
<p>&#8220;What makes a series of dice rolls a “random sequence,” in the terminology of mathematics, is that there is no systematic correlation between the different rolls. That means that one cannot predict the outcome of a roll from knowing the outcomes of previous rolls or subsequent rolls of the dice. The rolls are “statistically independent” of each other.&#8221;</p>
<p>It is exactly this sense of randomness, which you discuss at length and very well I might add, that intelligent design believes cannot be responsible for certain features of life.  The argument is not about the nature of randomness, but about how much this kind of randomness can actually do.</p>
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		<title>By: R Hampton</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/06/12/re-the-new-theistic-evolutionists/comment-page-1/#comment-328</link>
		<dc:creator>R Hampton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 21:55:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=3951#comment-328</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Stephen, thank you so for this post. Your position as a respected authority (or at least a commentator) who is favorable to Christianity can bridge gaps of trust that are seemingly impassable by the science-oriented person. I also found your explanation to be clear, concise and no-confrontational which is truly needed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen, thank you so for this post. Your position as a respected authority (or at least a commentator) who is favorable to Christianity can bridge gaps of trust that are seemingly impassable by the science-oriented person. I also found your explanation to be clear, concise and no-confrontational which is truly needed.</p>
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		<title>By: First Thoughts — A First Things Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/06/12/re-the-new-theistic-evolutionists/comment-page-1/#comment-322</link>
		<dc:creator>First Thoughts — A First Things Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 19:20:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=3951#comment-322</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] represented by Francis S. Collins (and myself) that he really was criticizing. As I noted in my previous post, it is the insights of St. Augustine that are most needed here, and therefore I think there is [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] represented by Francis S. Collins (and myself) that he really was criticizing. As I noted in my previous post, it is the insights of St. Augustine that are most needed here, and therefore I think there is [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Antonio Manetti</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/06/12/re-the-new-theistic-evolutionists/comment-page-1/#comment-320</link>
		<dc:creator>Antonio Manetti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:27:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=3951#comment-320</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[All that&#039;s really important in your analogy is that the potential outcomes are inherent in the design of the dice.  Randomness is a useful property we&#039;ve invented to describe those outcomes.  It&#039;s useful because it corresponds to observed behavior.

Likewise, if one believes in God, the occurrence of life &#039;as we know it&#039; reflects the constaints designed into the universe.

Beyond that, trying to reconcile the way the world works with a God that meets one&#039;s theological constraints seems like a pointless and hence useless exercise in intellectual naval gazing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All that&#8217;s really important in your analogy is that the potential outcomes are inherent in the design of the dice.  Randomness is a useful property we&#8217;ve invented to describe those outcomes.  It&#8217;s useful because it corresponds to observed behavior.</p>
<p>Likewise, if one believes in God, the occurrence of life &#8216;as we know it&#8217; reflects the constaints designed into the universe.</p>
<p>Beyond that, trying to reconcile the way the world works with a God that meets one&#8217;s theological constraints seems like a pointless and hence useless exercise in intellectual naval gazing.</p>
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