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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Hey Baby, You Look Predestined for Me&#8221;</title>
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		<title>By: Peter Herz</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/08/04/hey-baby-you-look-predestined-for-me/comment-page-1/#comment-1759</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Herz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 02:03:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=6296#comment-1759</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What is wrong with Calvinists dating?  God did indeed say &quot;Be fruitful and multiply&quot;, and Paul, from whom most of the Reformed doctrine is distilled, held marriage and the family in honor.

Further, if Olson and others had bothered to read the Westminster Confession, they&#039;d know that the Reformed doctrine does not exclude secondary causes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is wrong with Calvinists dating?  God did indeed say &#8220;Be fruitful and multiply&#8221;, and Paul, from whom most of the Reformed doctrine is distilled, held marriage and the family in honor.</p>
<p>Further, if Olson and others had bothered to read the Westminster Confession, they&#8217;d know that the Reformed doctrine does not exclude secondary causes.</p>
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		<title>By: GeronimoRumplestiltskin</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/08/04/hey-baby-you-look-predestined-for-me/comment-page-1/#comment-1718</link>
		<dc:creator>GeronimoRumplestiltskin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 14:34:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=6296#comment-1718</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Paul,

While the Catholic Church does indeed have dogma regarding predestination, it is not identical to the position advocated by Calvinists.  Though too long and involved for a blog comment discussion (and as much as I like a good exchange, my boss prefers I actually do work, which I find quite unreasonable :-) ), a pretty good summation can be found (embedded in a much longer article) in the Catholic Encyclopedia: 

&quot;....the Catholic dogma of predestination keeps the golden mean, because it regards eternal happiness primarily as the work of God and His grace, but secondarily as the fruit and reward of the meritorious actions of the predestined. The process of predestination consists of the following five steps: (a) the first grace of vocation, especially faith as the beginning, foundation, and root of justification; (b) a number of additional, actual graces for the successful accomplishment of justification; (c) justification itself as the beginning of the state of grace and love; (d) final perseverance or at least the grace of a happy death; (e) lastly, the admission to eternal bliss. If it is a truth of Revelation that there are many who, following this path, seek and find their eternal salvation with infallible certainty, then the existence of Divine predestination is proved (cf. Matthew 25:34; Revelation 20:15). St. Paul says quite explicitly (Romans 8:28 sq.): &quot;we know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints. For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the first born amongst many brethren. And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified.&quot; (Cf. Ephesians 1:4-11) Besides the eternal &quot;foreknowledge&quot; and foreordaining, the Apostle here mentions the various steps of predestination: &quot;vocation&quot;, &quot;justification&quot;, and &quot;glorification&quot;. This belief has been faithfully preserved by Tradition through all the centuries, especially since the time of Augustine.

&quot;There are three other qualities of predestination which must be noticed, because they are important and interesting from the theological standpoint: its immutability, the definiteness of the number of the predestined, and its subjective uncertainty.&quot;

As for myself, after many years of dating and even trying e-Harmony - who in response to my desire for a educated, athletic, active Catholic woman, matched me with a series of Protestant elementary school teachers who all looked like they could play middle linebacker for the Dallas Cowboys - I decided on Christmas Eve 2004 that I would pray a rosary every night for a year that this year would be the year I finally met &quot;the one&quot;.  Lynda and I met in the spring; she willingly embraced Springsteen concerts and Notre Dame football, I willingly embraced getting out of bed before noon on weekends and having a dog who wanted to play &#039;fetch&#039; for 5 hours straight, and we were engaged in 2006 (happily married since 2007).  

Rosaries rock.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul,</p>
<p>While the Catholic Church does indeed have dogma regarding predestination, it is not identical to the position advocated by Calvinists.  Though too long and involved for a blog comment discussion (and as much as I like a good exchange, my boss prefers I actually do work, which I find quite unreasonable :-) ), a pretty good summation can be found (embedded in a much longer article) in the Catholic Encyclopedia: </p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;.the Catholic dogma of predestination keeps the golden mean, because it regards eternal happiness primarily as the work of God and His grace, but secondarily as the fruit and reward of the meritorious actions of the predestined. The process of predestination consists of the following five steps: (a) the first grace of vocation, especially faith as the beginning, foundation, and root of justification; (b) a number of additional, actual graces for the successful accomplishment of justification; (c) justification itself as the beginning of the state of grace and love; (d) final perseverance or at least the grace of a happy death; (e) lastly, the admission to eternal bliss. If it is a truth of Revelation that there are many who, following this path, seek and find their eternal salvation with infallible certainty, then the existence of Divine predestination is proved (cf. Matthew 25:34; Revelation 20:15). St. Paul says quite explicitly (Romans 8:28 sq.): &#8220;we know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints. For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the first born amongst many brethren. And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified.&#8221; (Cf. Ephesians 1:4-11) Besides the eternal &#8220;foreknowledge&#8221; and foreordaining, the Apostle here mentions the various steps of predestination: &#8220;vocation&#8221;, &#8220;justification&#8221;, and &#8220;glorification&#8221;. This belief has been faithfully preserved by Tradition through all the centuries, especially since the time of Augustine.</p>
<p>&#8220;There are three other qualities of predestination which must be noticed, because they are important and interesting from the theological standpoint: its immutability, the definiteness of the number of the predestined, and its subjective uncertainty.&#8221;</p>
<p>As for myself, after many years of dating and even trying e-Harmony &#8211; who in response to my desire for a educated, athletic, active Catholic woman, matched me with a series of Protestant elementary school teachers who all looked like they could play middle linebacker for the Dallas Cowboys &#8211; I decided on Christmas Eve 2004 that I would pray a rosary every night for a year that this year would be the year I finally met &#8220;the one&#8221;.  Lynda and I met in the spring; she willingly embraced Springsteen concerts and Notre Dame football, I willingly embraced getting out of bed before noon on weekends and having a dog who wanted to play &#8216;fetch&#8217; for 5 hours straight, and we were engaged in 2006 (happily married since 2007).  </p>
<p>Rosaries rock.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/08/04/hey-baby-you-look-predestined-for-me/comment-page-1/#comment-1714</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 11:58:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=6296#comment-1714</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Predestination is also a teaching of the Roman Church.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Predestination is also a teaching of the Roman Church.</p>
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		<title>By: Ralph Davis</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/08/04/hey-baby-you-look-predestined-for-me/comment-page-1/#comment-1713</link>
		<dc:creator>Ralph Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 04:17:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=6296#comment-1713</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m a Molonist, not a Calvinist, I know the Calvinist answer to your question. God predestines only one&#039;s salvation, not one&#039;s daily choices which are left to free will. Some Calvinists would say he usually only predestines those who would have freely chosen him and he places us in the time and place in history to make that choice a reality. But he&#039;s also free to force his grace irresistibly on anyone he chooses, such as Paul if it serves his purposes, and he&#039;s free to withdraw his grace for similar purposes (e.g. compare Peter and Judas -- both betrayed Christ but both ultimately served Christ&#039;s plan in opposite ways -- one by being saved and one by being lost).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a Molonist, not a Calvinist, I know the Calvinist answer to your question. God predestines only one&#8217;s salvation, not one&#8217;s daily choices which are left to free will. Some Calvinists would say he usually only predestines those who would have freely chosen him and he places us in the time and place in history to make that choice a reality. But he&#8217;s also free to force his grace irresistibly on anyone he chooses, such as Paul if it serves his purposes, and he&#8217;s free to withdraw his grace for similar purposes (e.g. compare Peter and Judas &#8212; both betrayed Christ but both ultimately served Christ&#8217;s plan in opposite ways &#8212; one by being saved and one by being lost).</p>
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