<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Social Conservatives, Libertarians, and Aristotle</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/10/07/social-conservatives-libertarians-and-aristotle/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/10/07/social-conservatives-libertarians-and-aristotle/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 21:47:44 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: What hath Vienna to do with Colorado Springs? &#171; Acton Institute PowerBlog</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/10/07/social-conservatives-libertarians-and-aristotle/comment-page-1/#comment-3785</link>
		<dc:creator>What hath Vienna to do with Colorado Springs? &#171; Acton Institute PowerBlog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 11:13:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=8730#comment-3785</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Hunter Baker, an adjunct scholar with the Acton Institute and a contributor here at the PowerBlog, posted an excerpt from &#8220;a plenary panel session on the question of whether libertarians and social [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Hunter Baker, an adjunct scholar with the Acton Institute and a contributor here at the PowerBlog, posted an excerpt from &#8220;a plenary panel session on the question of whether libertarians and social [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chuck</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/10/07/social-conservatives-libertarians-and-aristotle/comment-page-1/#comment-3653</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 19:58:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=8730#comment-3653</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Libertarians have the ultimate advantage in the Doctrine of Inevitablity.  In other words, they do not have to engage in a philosophical debate at all.  They merely have to say, &quot;X is going to be done and you cannot stop us.&quot;  And if enough people say that, the state, no matter how organized, must cave in.

This is why the social conservatives always lose. In the end it really does not matter what Aristotle or Plato had to say about anything.  It is about what people living in a period of time decide what it is they are going to do and then simply rolling over anyone who tries to stop them.  A perfect example was the sexual revolution of the late 1960s.  The arguments against non-marital sex were the same in 1969 as they were in 1963 (and occasionally one hears someone even try to make them now) but by 1969, very few people gave a damn about the arguments.  They had decided what they wanted to do and it did not matter what anyone else thought.

The debate between Aristotelians and Libertarians is about the same as a debate between a man on the tracks waving his arms and a speeding freight train.  The smart money is on the train.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Libertarians have the ultimate advantage in the Doctrine of Inevitablity.  In other words, they do not have to engage in a philosophical debate at all.  They merely have to say, &#8220;X is going to be done and you cannot stop us.&#8221;  And if enough people say that, the state, no matter how organized, must cave in.</p>
<p>This is why the social conservatives always lose. In the end it really does not matter what Aristotle or Plato had to say about anything.  It is about what people living in a period of time decide what it is they are going to do and then simply rolling over anyone who tries to stop them.  A perfect example was the sexual revolution of the late 1960s.  The arguments against non-marital sex were the same in 1969 as they were in 1963 (and occasionally one hears someone even try to make them now) but by 1969, very few people gave a damn about the arguments.  They had decided what they wanted to do and it did not matter what anyone else thought.</p>
<p>The debate between Aristotelians and Libertarians is about the same as a debate between a man on the tracks waving his arms and a speeding freight train.  The smart money is on the train.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/10/07/social-conservatives-libertarians-and-aristotle/comment-page-1/#comment-3650</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 17:04:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=8730#comment-3650</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You should ask yourselves why the “libertarians” are winning over the youth.  There is a reason for it that you won’t like:  they make a lot more sense.  They are articulating our current deep, systemic problems that in many ways were allowed by socialists and social conservatives whose costs will be passed on to the next generation in a way that social conservatives cannot, and they are making concrete solutions.  The theory that the “polis” takes an active role in our lives as a solution to current problems is laughable to a lot of people.  I cannot imagine what the classical theory would even look like in our current day and age that isn&#039;t something similar to socialism, that is, using force to promote some ideal.  How are you going to sell something that is so abstract and uncomprehendable to most people?  The fact that so many young people are being drawn to freedom/libertarian ideologies is proof that markets work.  Its not the &quot;libertarians&quot; who are abstract, its the socons, and the market is reflecting this.

I use libertarian in quotes because I think the current libertarian movement is not the same libertarianism that is being argued against in this article and the subsequent comments.  The libertarianism here seems to be more of a straw man.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You should ask yourselves why the “libertarians” are winning over the youth.  There is a reason for it that you won’t like:  they make a lot more sense.  They are articulating our current deep, systemic problems that in many ways were allowed by socialists and social conservatives whose costs will be passed on to the next generation in a way that social conservatives cannot, and they are making concrete solutions.  The theory that the “polis” takes an active role in our lives as a solution to current problems is laughable to a lot of people.  I cannot imagine what the classical theory would even look like in our current day and age that isn&#8217;t something similar to socialism, that is, using force to promote some ideal.  How are you going to sell something that is so abstract and uncomprehendable to most people?  The fact that so many young people are being drawn to freedom/libertarian ideologies is proof that markets work.  Its not the &#8220;libertarians&#8221; who are abstract, its the socons, and the market is reflecting this.</p>
<p>I use libertarian in quotes because I think the current libertarian movement is not the same libertarianism that is being argued against in this article and the subsequent comments.  The libertarianism here seems to be more of a straw man.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Joe Carter</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/10/07/social-conservatives-libertarians-and-aristotle/comment-page-1/#comment-3642</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Carter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 03:31:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=8730#comment-3642</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kevin, you win the &quot;Comment of the Week&quot; prize. That is exactly how I feel. The alliance has been a net loss for SoCons. 

Last year I was invited to a meeting in D.C. for young &quot;conservatives&quot; (at 39, I was the oldest guy in the room). There were about forty very influential young people so I asked how many identified as social conservatives. Not one of them raised their hands. We&#039;re completely losing this generation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin, you win the &#8220;Comment of the Week&#8221; prize. That is exactly how I feel. The alliance has been a net loss for SoCons. </p>
<p>Last year I was invited to a meeting in D.C. for young &#8220;conservatives&#8221; (at 39, I was the oldest guy in the room). There were about forty very influential young people so I asked how many identified as social conservatives. Not one of them raised their hands. We&#8217;re completely losing this generation.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kevin J Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/10/07/social-conservatives-libertarians-and-aristotle/comment-page-1/#comment-3641</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin J Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 03:25:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=8730#comment-3641</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Have social conservatives gotten anything out of their alliance with the libertarians? The more they&#039;ve allied with the libertarians, the worse things have gotten and the more powerful the cultural left has become. Indeed, libertarians are proselytizing the children of the social conservatives with far more vigor than the SoCons are proselytizing towards anybody else.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have social conservatives gotten anything out of their alliance with the libertarians? The more they&#8217;ve allied with the libertarians, the worse things have gotten and the more powerful the cultural left has become. Indeed, libertarians are proselytizing the children of the social conservatives with far more vigor than the SoCons are proselytizing towards anybody else.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/10/07/social-conservatives-libertarians-and-aristotle/comment-page-1/#comment-3640</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 03:01:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=8730#comment-3640</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One way to explain the difference between the two is on the nature of freedom.  Libertarians are concerned ONLY WITH exterior freedom-meaning they are worried about the pressure the state can apply.  Social Conservatives, on the hand, are concerned with a deeper understanding of freedom, interior freedom.  He recognizes there are things other than the state which can enslave you e.g. your appetites.  A drug addict or alcoholic is free according to a Libertarian, but not according to a Social Conservative.

Another way to explain the difference is to see how they view bioethics.  The Libertarian values Autonomy so he recognizes no authority outside of the self.  In this scenario, redesigning human nature through biotechnology is permissible.  The Social Conservative values human dignity and recongizes a transcendent reference point for it.  Tampering with human nature then would be playing God.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One way to explain the difference between the two is on the nature of freedom.  Libertarians are concerned ONLY WITH exterior freedom-meaning they are worried about the pressure the state can apply.  Social Conservatives, on the hand, are concerned with a deeper understanding of freedom, interior freedom.  He recognizes there are things other than the state which can enslave you e.g. your appetites.  A drug addict or alcoholic is free according to a Libertarian, but not according to a Social Conservative.</p>
<p>Another way to explain the difference is to see how they view bioethics.  The Libertarian values Autonomy so he recognizes no authority outside of the self.  In this scenario, redesigning human nature through biotechnology is permissible.  The Social Conservative values human dignity and recongizes a transcendent reference point for it.  Tampering with human nature then would be playing God.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Social Conservatives, Libertarians, and Russell Kirk &#187; First Thoughts &#124; A First Things Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/10/07/social-conservatives-libertarians-and-aristotle/comment-page-1/#comment-3631</link>
		<dc:creator>Social Conservatives, Libertarians, and Russell Kirk &#187; First Thoughts &#124; A First Things Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 21:31:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=8730#comment-3631</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] excellent post on social conservatives, libertarians, and Aristotle gives me an excuse to link to an essay by a more recent thinker—the late, great Russell [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] excellent post on social conservatives, libertarians, and Aristotle gives me an excuse to link to an essay by a more recent thinker—the late, great Russell [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Andrew Kern</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/10/07/social-conservatives-libertarians-and-aristotle/comment-page-1/#comment-3630</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Kern</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 21:11:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=8730#comment-3630</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It seems to me that the thread in Aristotle&#039;s thought that supports true freedom, in spite of his view of the state as potentially a benefactor, is what has come to be called natural law.

That may be why Aristotle argued for smaller city-states. There is a scale to freedom according to nature, and to break that scale is to threaten freedom. 

From what I can figure out of Aristotle, that scale is based on duty and authority. If you separate the two, you have broken the fundamental principle of freedom as, it seems to me, Aristotle and Plato, at least, thought of it. 

In other words, if you give someone authority over something for which he bears no responsibility, he will be a tyrant.

If someone bears responsibility for something over which he has no authority, it&#039;s hard to see how such a person is free. 

Perhaps we can agree on this point and help Americans see how far we have wandered from these points.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that the thread in Aristotle&#8217;s thought that supports true freedom, in spite of his view of the state as potentially a benefactor, is what has come to be called natural law.</p>
<p>That may be why Aristotle argued for smaller city-states. There is a scale to freedom according to nature, and to break that scale is to threaten freedom. </p>
<p>From what I can figure out of Aristotle, that scale is based on duty and authority. If you separate the two, you have broken the fundamental principle of freedom as, it seems to me, Aristotle and Plato, at least, thought of it. </p>
<p>In other words, if you give someone authority over something for which he bears no responsibility, he will be a tyrant.</p>
<p>If someone bears responsibility for something over which he has no authority, it&#8217;s hard to see how such a person is free. </p>
<p>Perhaps we can agree on this point and help Americans see how far we have wandered from these points.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: KEITH PAVLISCHEK</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/10/07/social-conservatives-libertarians-and-aristotle/comment-page-1/#comment-3629</link>
		<dc:creator>KEITH PAVLISCHEK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 20:52:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=8730#comment-3629</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nice article. 

A quick note about &quot;subsidiarity&quot; which was described above as &quot;delegating a governmental task to the lowest, most local level possible.&quot;  Fair point, but stating it in this way might be a bit misleading. For one thing, it might give the impression that the &quot;lower level&quot; of which we speak is itself a governmental entity, in which case we are only speaking of different levels of government (analogous to a federal conception of national, state or provincial, and local). But families and business enterprises and churches and &quot;voluntary associations&quot; are not &quot;parts&quot; to which governments are &quot;wholes,&quot; to which the government (or state) can “delegate” responsibility.  (As if the state is the true parent that delegates “parental responsibility” to parents because that just happens to be more convenient and functional.) Each has their own integrity, or their own &quot;sovereignty&quot; as the Kuyperian tradition puts it (a way of conceiving things, by the way,  that Fr. Neuhaus not long before his passing suggested may capture his understanding of &quot;mediating structures&quot; better than the concept of subsidiarity), an integrity that the state must acknowledge.  

In any case, &quot;subsidiarity&quot; in Catholic social thought doesn&#039;t mean just to” delegate.” It means more fundamentally to &quot;help&quot; or &quot;provide aid&quot; to those &quot;mediating structures&quot; or, better, non-governmental societal structures (perhaps better “pre-state” societal structures). The legitimate task of government is to &quot;help&quot; them &quot;be all that they can be,&quot; but to do so in such as way as not to usurp their unique role or “callings”. So, to the libertarians we say that government has a normative and active role to play. To the Aristotelians  with polis envy we insist that the polis is not the be all and end all, regardless of scale. We must insist that the family is not “part” of the polis, and the polis is not the family writ large. And besides, there is this little thing called the &quot;Church.&quot; “Two there are, not one there is.”  Can a true Aristotelian abide that?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice article. </p>
<p>A quick note about &#8220;subsidiarity&#8221; which was described above as &#8220;delegating a governmental task to the lowest, most local level possible.&#8221;  Fair point, but stating it in this way might be a bit misleading. For one thing, it might give the impression that the &#8220;lower level&#8221; of which we speak is itself a governmental entity, in which case we are only speaking of different levels of government (analogous to a federal conception of national, state or provincial, and local). But families and business enterprises and churches and &#8220;voluntary associations&#8221; are not &#8220;parts&#8221; to which governments are &#8220;wholes,&#8221; to which the government (or state) can “delegate” responsibility.  (As if the state is the true parent that delegates “parental responsibility” to parents because that just happens to be more convenient and functional.) Each has their own integrity, or their own &#8220;sovereignty&#8221; as the Kuyperian tradition puts it (a way of conceiving things, by the way,  that Fr. Neuhaus not long before his passing suggested may capture his understanding of &#8220;mediating structures&#8221; better than the concept of subsidiarity), an integrity that the state must acknowledge.  </p>
<p>In any case, &#8220;subsidiarity&#8221; in Catholic social thought doesn&#8217;t mean just to” delegate.” It means more fundamentally to &#8220;help&#8221; or &#8220;provide aid&#8221; to those &#8220;mediating structures&#8221; or, better, non-governmental societal structures (perhaps better “pre-state” societal structures). The legitimate task of government is to &#8220;help&#8221; them &#8220;be all that they can be,&#8221; but to do so in such as way as not to usurp their unique role or “callings”. So, to the libertarians we say that government has a normative and active role to play. To the Aristotelians  with polis envy we insist that the polis is not the be all and end all, regardless of scale. We must insist that the family is not “part” of the polis, and the polis is not the family writ large. And besides, there is this little thing called the &#8220;Church.&#8221; “Two there are, not one there is.”  Can a true Aristotelian abide that?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tweets that mention Social Conservatives, Libertarians, and Aristotle » First Thoughts &#124; A First Things Blog -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/10/07/social-conservatives-libertarians-and-aristotle/comment-page-1/#comment-3628</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention Social Conservatives, Libertarians, and Aristotle » First Thoughts &#124; A First Things Blog -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 20:51:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=8730#comment-3628</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Roger Cook. Roger Cook said: New shared item: Social Conservatives, Libertarians, and Aristotle: At a recent conference, I p.. http://bit.ly/4FpCkO [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Roger Cook. Roger Cook said: New shared item: Social Conservatives, Libertarians, and Aristotle: At a recent conference, I p.. <a href="http://bit.ly/4FpCkO" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/4FpCkO</a> [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
