As interesting as it may be from a Christian perspective to consider whether Christians should use the term Allah to speak of God, I find it remarkable that there are Muslims that think Allah is a specifically Islamic referent. They are cutting off the branch they are sitting on.

Islam, of course, understands itself to be an Abrahamic faith; a corrective to the perceived errors of the other Abrahamic faiths. In other words, it doesn’t see Christians (or Jews) as pagans, but heretics.

If these Muslims are claiming that they serve a different God than Christians (and, presumably, Jews) do, they are repudiating Islam’s very claim to theological and religious legitimacy. And Mohammad then is last in the line of prophets of… Whom, exactly?

The idea that God means something different from Deus from Theos from ya’Illah from YHWH from Allah reflects a lack of knowledge of linguistics and translation. Which letters and sounds are used is not the issue, the meaning or semantic domain is. Is the uncreated Creator being referred to, or is someone or something else?

Are muslims worshiping a different god, or the same God, wrongly? Can we tell without God’s perspective and insight into their souls?

Didn’t you just insist they were Satan worshippers a second ago (citing Jesus)? Or did I just imagine that in the heat of battle? I’d rather be accused of being a muddled God-worshipper who is fundamentally confused about the nature of the God I worship, than be a Satanist. To each his own, I suppose.

I think it is more fruitful to say that, whenever someone speaks of God (or any monotheistic equivalent), they are talking about, well, God. Thus when they say they worship God, well, I assume they are trying to worship that-which-there-can-only-be-one-of. Now, what success this “worship” actually has in truly uniting them to God in spirit and truth – well – without consciously doing it in the name of Christ, at the very best, we Christians might hope for is that Christ slips his grace through invincible ignorance and something good happens (like the good Calormen guy in The Last Battle). It’s hard to imagine being moved to praise and thanks at a sunset ever moves someone further away from the love of Christ, however insufficient it may be in itself to redeem the whole man from sin and death. But at worst, such misguided worship does more harm than if the person were an atheist. Heck, ask Uzzah or the sons of Aaron.

I maintain that this discussion is more fruitful between us and Jews or Muslims:

A: God isn’t like that!
B: Yes he is!
A: Why do you think he is?
B: Because X! Why do you think he’s not?
A: Becuase Y!

Than this conversation:

A: Our god is better than your god!
B: No way! Our god kicks your sorry god’s lousy buttocks!
A: Dude, you totally need to defect to our team!
B: No way – you need to dump your lousy god and join up with ours!

Honestly, which type of discussion do you see Paul and Stephen having with their fellow Jews? And really, what Jew-become-Christian ever saw this as leaving one god to serve another? It’s almost always, to my knowledge, experienced as finding true revelation about the God they had known only from a distance – now brought face to face in love. Or even finding longings which their religion rightfully instilled in them now fulfilled. In polytheism, you can’t do this – you never say “Wow – I realized that Zeus is actually Jesus” or even “I knew I could actually serve Aphrodite better by finding her love in Christ”. The closest you get is appropriating some of the harmless trappings of the prior paganism – like celebrating Christ’s birth on a day that you are already used to having a huge party, or building your church on a mound you are used to worshipping at. Hence, I see your point in seeing “Allah” as a proper name, but reject it as smuggling in polytheistic ways of talking about disagreements between monotheists. This is why Augustine says he only spends a little bit of time in the City of God debunking polytheism, but really wants to have a solid reasoned debate with the Platonists.

I do think it’s interesting, in a way, that the Muslims you quote want to cast all this in the competing god lingo. Because they are right, in a sense. Seeing that the good things they long for in Mohommad’s revelation of God are actually found in Jesus, without the distortions, is a FAR MORE EFFECTIVE evangelistic approach than saying “your religion is evil and you worship a false god; come reject your homeland and defect to our team”. You have to do that with paganism (at least the worst forms of it), but thankfully we can take the former approach with Muslims, to great effect.

For example, look at this dialog between Maryam and Marzieh and their prosecutor in their recent trial in Iran:

Mr. Haddad, asked the two women if they were Christians. “We love Jesus,” they replied. He repeated his question and they said, “Yes, we are Christians.”

Marzieh said, “It is God, and not you, who determines if I am worthy.”

This is a debate about the nature of God, not whose god is better. Notice they didn’t say “your god doesn’t talk to humans – our god does”.

Of course, in the end, you and Stephen Barr are right – it’s best not to speculate or talk too much about what people are really doing when they worship. It’s best to bear witness to who God is in Christ, and let whatever truth and whatever error in the other faith have to encounter him.

By the way – I forgot to mention something that really should be a deal-breaker in using logical proofs like yours above about Jews worshipping Jesus. Using “is” in that sense, would also deny the Athanasian creed.

A: Jesus is God
B: The Father is God
C: Therefore, Jesus is the Father

Trinitarianism is more subtle than just saying “Jesus is God” in that sense – notice the creeds don’t say that outright. He is “the only begotten son of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father”. Jesus is the image of the invisible God. He is the divine wisdom, he is the word of God become flesh and dwelling among us. When we look at Jesus we see God, and looking anywhere else will be a distortion. Mary is theotokos, the bearer of God. Etc. But using the unqualified logical “IS” in a proof would just say that the Father is the Holy Spirit is the Son. So you have to temper the simple logic with mystery when you come to the trinity. Dorthy Sayers helps a lot in “The Mind of the Maker” in explaining the trinity on more fruitful ground.

Anyway, in the end, perhaps it’s hard to discern exactly where we agree and disagree. Would you concede me my original point, though? That “do we worship the same God” is basically a “have you stopped beating your wife” question – which you can’t really safely answer “yes” or “no” to without qualifying the heck out of it, and in fact it sends the whole discussion in all sorts of unhelpful directions? Haven’t we demonstrated that rather well here? ;-)

The Messiah bore witness unto “The Only True G-D”…….

And Truth IS, as Paul testified, “G-D was in The Messiah”, Paul did not testify that ‘g-d was the messiah’…….

And Paul testified of “ONE G-D, Father of ALL”…….

The Messiah testified of, “The Only True G-D” and The Messiah testified that He had a “G-D and Father”, HE WHO IS The ONE and Only True G-D, Father of ALL…….

Paul testified, “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world has been hid in G-D, WHO CREATED ALL things by The Messiah”…….(Eph3:9)

And The Father(Creator) spoke “Let there be Light” and “there was Light”…….

LIGHT begot Light…….

The Messiah, “The Light which enlightens every man”, was “The Beginning of The Creation of The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL…….(Rev 3:14)

There is Only ONE True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, and HE IS The G-D and Father(Creator) of The Messiah and His brethren…….

John 17:3 “And this is Eternal Life, that they might know YOU The Only True G-D, and The Messiah, Whom YOU have sent”…….

Mark 12:32-33 “And the scribe said unto The Messiah, Well, Master, You have said The Truth: for there is ONE G-D; and there is NONE OTHER but HE. And to love HIM with all your heart, and with all your understanding, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and to love his neighbor as yourself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices”…….

Rom 3:30 “Seeing it is ONE G-D, WHO shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith”…….

1 Cor 8:6 “But to us there is but ONE G-D, The Father, of WHOM are all things, and we in HIM; and one Master, The Messiah, by Whom are all things, and we by Him”…….

Rev 3:14 The Messiah was “The Beginning of The Creation of The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL”…….

Eph 4:6 “ONE G-D, Father of ALL, WHO is above all, and through all, and in you all”…….

John 4:24 “G-D is A SPIRIT: and they that worship HIM must worship HIM in Spirit and in Truth”…….

Luke 24:39 The Messiah testified after He was “raised from among the dead”, “Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself, handle Me and see, for A SPIRIT DOES NOT HAVE FLESH AND BONES, AS you see I HAVE”…….

The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL can not die…….period…….

The Messiah died and “The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL raised Him from among the dead”……. And The Messiah’s incorruptible body ascended into the clouds…….

James 1:13 “Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of G-D, for G-D CAN NOT BE TEMPTED with evil, neither tempts HE any man”…….

Heb 4:15 “For we do not have a High Priest(The Messiah) Who cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, for He WAS in all points TEMPTED like we are, yet without sin”…….

The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, HE CAN NOT BE TEMPTED with sin AS THE MESSIAH WAS…….period…….

1 Tim 2:5 “There is ONE G-D, and one mediator between G-D and men, the man-The Messiah”…….

James 2:19 “You believe that there is ONE G-D, you do well, yet the devils also believe, and tremble”…….

John 20:17 “The Messiah said unto her, Touch Me not; for I have not yet ascended to My Father: but go to My brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and your Father; and to My G-D, and your G-D.”

Mark 3:33-35 “The Messiah answered them, saying, “Who is My mother, or My brethren”? And He looked round about on them which sat about Him, and said, “Behold my mother and my brethren! For whoever shall do The Will of G-D, the same is My brother, and My sister, and mother”"…….

Rom 8:29 “Whom G-D did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of HIS Son, that The Messiah might be the firstborn among many brethren”…….

Hope is you are one of the brethren of The Messiah…….

The brethren of The Messiah know there is Only ONE True Living G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL…….

And Truth is as The Messiah tesified, ” My(Our) Father is greater than I”…….(John14:28)

And Truth is as Paul testifed, “The HEAD of The Messiah is The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, and The Head of the man is The Messiah, and the head of the woman is the man”…….(1Cor11:3)

Those who would pervert The Order of The ONE and Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL will have to answer to HIM…….

For The ONE and Only True Living G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, “HE Created all things by The Messiah” and The Messiah was “The Beginning of The Creation of The ONE and Only True Living G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL…….

Truth is “The Messiah is The Son of The ONE and Only True Living G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL”…….

The Messiah testified that He had a “G-D and Father” and that His “G-D and Father” was also the “G-D and Father” of His Brethren…….

And The ONE and Only True Living G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL, HE has no god, for HE IS G-D, and HE has no father, for HE IS Father(Creator) of ALL, and HE has no brethren, for HE IS Father(Creator) of ALL…….

Hope is there would be those who experience The Miracle that is receiving “the love of The Truth” for they will “experience The Messiah and The Power(Our Father) that raised Him from among the dead”…….

The Faith of those who have received “a love of The Truth” is grounded in Miracles, not mere colored marks(words) written on a dead tree(page) and bound in a book…….

Thankfully The ONE and Only True G-D, Father of ALL, HE yet communes with HIS Children, HE yet reveals all things…….

Father Help! and HE does…….

Peace, in spite of the dis-ease(no-peace) that is of this world and it’s systems of religion, for “the WHOLE(not just a portion) world is under the control of the evil one” indeed and Truth…….

Truth is never ending……. francis

I think you’re still making the same errors in your arguments. But I will restrict myself to two follow-ups here, and a general concluding remark:

1. “To say that they are worshipping the Father is to say that they don’t understand who it is they are worshipping.”

Why is that so problematic? (Sounds like John 4:22 to me… see above.) Isn’t that a perfectly natural thing to say, for a Christian? Again, understanding comes in degrees. Given that, I am baffled as to why this should be thought a difficulty – isn’t it perfectly natural for a Christian to think that Jews worship God, but don’t fully understand who He is? I would think that would be totally unexceptional. I can only conclude that this seems like a difficulty to you because you take understanding and knowledge to be ‘all or nothing’ matters (hence your interpretation of Jesus’ “you do not know the Father”). But understanding and knowledge are not all or nothing, and so this seems a perfectly acceptable result. (Especially in light of John 4:22, per Stephen Barr’s comment above.)

2. As I argued above, both of your options are “condescending.” On the one hand, you are saying that Jews worship Christ even though they think otherwise; on the other hand, you are saying they worship a figment of their imagination even though they think they worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They’re perfectly parallel as far as that goes. Either way, you are saying that they don’t know what it is that they’re worshiping. The reason you get the same “condescension” is that you are neglecting, still, the fact that we don’t just worship something, we worship it (or know it, acknowledge it, understand it, etc.) under some aspect or description. And since that description is crucial, you can’t validly argue by substituting different names or descriptions for the same thing.

In all charity, I think that in continuing to consider this matter, you simply have to look carefully at, and perhaps read up on, the philosophical notion of intensional context (try the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy) and consider, in general, what sorts of arguments can and cannot be made when terms like “know,” “understand,” and “worship” are in play. I don’t mean to say that only professional philosophers are allowed to make arguments, nor do I mean to condescend (there’s that word again), but so far as I can tell there is nothing about your arguments’ logic that distinguishes them from standard fallacies involving these terms.

I guess I’m a bit unclear as to why concerns of respectfulness or condescension are at all relevant to that discussion. But that’s an entirely separate issue from the subject of the original post, so I won’t divert the thread by addressing it.

While I appreciate it, you certainly have nothing to apologize for. The argument got heated but I don’t think it crossed the line. I too, however, have been thinking about this issue and want to add a few points that I may or may not have been clear on yesterday (and a few points that I will concede).

1. While I don’t understand how anyone on the entire globe can hear the term Allah and not think of the God of Islam, I’ll defer to the Christians in the countries that use that term on its usage. If they think it is more helpful than harmful, then I withdraw my objection.

2. On the question of whether Jews and Christians worship the “same” God, I think people are confusing the ontological with the linguistic. The reason I don’t think that we should say they are the “same” is because I don’t think we can make that claim without either doing violence to our beliefs or insulting our Jewish friends.

To say that the Jews worship the “Father” is a category error. First, they have no conception of the “Father” since to them there is no “Son.” To say that they are worshipping the Father is to say that they don’t understand who it is they are worshipping.

Second, the Father cannot be worshipped apart from the Son. There are not two distinct deities only one God subsisting in three persons and one substance. For a Christian to say that Jews worship the “same” God as us is to claim that they worship a Triune God, a claim that they explicitly reject. Essentially, we are saying that they are Christ-worshippers and Holy Spirit-worshippers but just don’t know it.

I fully agree that the God that what followers of modern Judaism think they are worshipping is the conception of what we consider God the Father. (This too is insulting, which is why I think such talk is unhelpful.) But since if you aware of the self-revelation of the Son you can’t worship the Father without also worshipping the Son and Holy Spirit, we are claiming that they are, as St. Paul would say, “ignorantly worshipping” God.

Now if this is what Christians must claim, then I guess I’ll fall in line. I would rather make a less insulting claim (who we worship is not the same) than to say that Jews are so confused in their concept of God that they worship what they say they reject.

If this is what I have to concede to, I will. But we should all be perfectly clear about the claims we are making and that they are more condescending than respectful.