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	<title>Comments on: A Former Muslim Who Favors Christian Proselytism</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/06/14/a-former-muslim-who-favors-christian-proselytism/</link>
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		<title>By: T.B.Root</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/06/14/a-former-muslim-who-favors-christian-proselytism/comment-page-1/#comment-16671</link>
		<dc:creator>T.B.Root</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jun 2010 03:22:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=17155#comment-16671</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mark, how could one disagree with your bleak assessment of the prospects for success of this? 

Yet, in my lifetime I&#039;ve seen brave individuals move the seemingly immovable. I&#039;d say that this lady, living under the threat of death, has earned her right to dream and hope without being called silly.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, how could one disagree with your bleak assessment of the prospects for success of this? </p>
<p>Yet, in my lifetime I&#8217;ve seen brave individuals move the seemingly immovable. I&#8217;d say that this lady, living under the threat of death, has earned her right to dream and hope without being called silly.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/06/14/a-former-muslim-who-favors-christian-proselytism/comment-page-1/#comment-16656</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jun 2010 01:32:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=17155#comment-16656</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Perhaps Ayaan Hirsi Ali believes there might be others as eager for a change as she was. That would be natural. You can’t blame her for wanting it to be so, or wishing to help things along.&lt;/i&gt;

Especially for people from non-Western backgrounds, religion and culture are practically one in the same.  Ayaan Hirsi Ali is an extreme example of an integrationist immigrant.

When she applied for amnesty in the Netherlands, she did so with full knowledge that she was permanently severing all ties to her homeland, her community and even her family.  For someone like that, renouncing religion is not the same as it is for many others.  It&#039;s like breaking up with a boyfriend or girlfriend who hasn&#039;t been treating you well.  And it was only natural for her to want to become 100% Dutch -- what other choice did she have once she forever renounced her old Somali identity?

So I&#039;m skeptical she has as much of a window into the experiences of Muslim immigrants in Europe as she may like to think.  Most came to Europe wanting to retain cultural and, yes, religious ties to their communities in circumstances different from those of Hirsi Ali.  Asking them to convert from Islam is like asking them to turn their backs on their communities -- most simply will not consider it.

Jews have always remained a strong and proud minority within Europe despite sometimes horrific levels of persecution and Muslims seem to show the same feeling of identity and solidarity.  I simply don&#039;t think it is realistic to expect people to give up part of their identity so easily.

Nor is it realistic to think converting them into churches that have not been attracting many new recruits in developed countries for some time is a viable strategy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Perhaps Ayaan Hirsi Ali believes there might be others as eager for a change as she was. That would be natural. You can’t blame her for wanting it to be so, or wishing to help things along.</i></p>
<p>Especially for people from non-Western backgrounds, religion and culture are practically one in the same.  Ayaan Hirsi Ali is an extreme example of an integrationist immigrant.</p>
<p>When she applied for amnesty in the Netherlands, she did so with full knowledge that she was permanently severing all ties to her homeland, her community and even her family.  For someone like that, renouncing religion is not the same as it is for many others.  It&#8217;s like breaking up with a boyfriend or girlfriend who hasn&#8217;t been treating you well.  And it was only natural for her to want to become 100% Dutch &#8212; what other choice did she have once she forever renounced her old Somali identity?</p>
<p>So I&#8217;m skeptical she has as much of a window into the experiences of Muslim immigrants in Europe as she may like to think.  Most came to Europe wanting to retain cultural and, yes, religious ties to their communities in circumstances different from those of Hirsi Ali.  Asking them to convert from Islam is like asking them to turn their backs on their communities &#8212; most simply will not consider it.</p>
<p>Jews have always remained a strong and proud minority within Europe despite sometimes horrific levels of persecution and Muslims seem to show the same feeling of identity and solidarity.  I simply don&#8217;t think it is realistic to expect people to give up part of their identity so easily.</p>
<p>Nor is it realistic to think converting them into churches that have not been attracting many new recruits in developed countries for some time is a viable strategy.</p>
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		<title>By: Sahil</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/06/14/a-former-muslim-who-favors-christian-proselytism/comment-page-1/#comment-16652</link>
		<dc:creator>Sahil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jun 2010 00:06:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=17155#comment-16652</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Both Islam and Christianity are convert greedy religions. The more converts they win, the more political they become and the more they blow the bugals of their victory.

So obviously, these two religions will never give up fighting for higher market share in the business of souls.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Both Islam and Christianity are convert greedy religions. The more converts they win, the more political they become and the more they blow the bugals of their victory.</p>
<p>So obviously, these two religions will never give up fighting for higher market share in the business of souls.</p>
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		<title>By: T.B.Root</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/06/14/a-former-muslim-who-favors-christian-proselytism/comment-page-1/#comment-16649</link>
		<dc:creator>T.B.Root</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jun 2010 23:08:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=17155#comment-16649</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Perhaps Ayaan Hirsi Ali believes there might be others as eager for a change as she was. That would be natural. You can&#039;t blame her for wanting it to be so, or wishing to help things along. 

If her position seems less than consistent, it might be that she&#039;s not entirely settled, but is in mid-journey. Or maybe it&#039;s just that from the outside she better sees the kinship between Christianity and Western secular thought that is often missed from the inside--so that by embracing one, she has necessarily somewhat embraced the other.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps Ayaan Hirsi Ali believes there might be others as eager for a change as she was. That would be natural. You can&#8217;t blame her for wanting it to be so, or wishing to help things along. </p>
<p>If her position seems less than consistent, it might be that she&#8217;s not entirely settled, but is in mid-journey. Or maybe it&#8217;s just that from the outside she better sees the kinship between Christianity and Western secular thought that is often missed from the inside&#8211;so that by embracing one, she has necessarily somewhat embraced the other.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/06/14/a-former-muslim-who-favors-christian-proselytism/comment-page-1/#comment-16615</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jun 2010 14:41:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=17155#comment-16615</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was struck by Ayaan Hirsi Ali&#039;s suggestion as well.  For one thing, as an atheist, she reserves her praise for those denominations of Christianity that are largely &quot;secular&quot; (that&#039;s her term).  This presumably applies to the Catholic Church as well as the mainline Protestant churches.

Just one problem: these churches have not been very good at converting anyone for quite some time.  The number of Catholics in the U.S. has held steady due to immigration from Latin America and not from fresh converts replacing all those who have left the church.  Mainline protestant numbers have also, to my recollection, been falling.

Another problem is simply that past efforts to convert Muslims to Christianity simply have not succeeded.  Indeed, I think Muslims would be of a similar mind to Jews in that many would regard specific attempts to convert them to Christianity as highly offensive and patronizing.

It is a rather tone-deaf suggestion.  If &quot;secular&quot; Christianity provides a way out of Islamic radicalism, why doesn&#039;t the mostly &quot;secular&quot; version of Islam practiced among the educated Muslim populations of places like Bosnia, Istanbul or Bombay provide a similar way out?  Salman Rushdie once defined a Bombay Muslim as a middle-class merchant of ostensibly Islamic upbringing whose main object of worship was money and commerce.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was struck by Ayaan Hirsi Ali&#8217;s suggestion as well.  For one thing, as an atheist, she reserves her praise for those denominations of Christianity that are largely &#8220;secular&#8221; (that&#8217;s her term).  This presumably applies to the Catholic Church as well as the mainline Protestant churches.</p>
<p>Just one problem: these churches have not been very good at converting anyone for quite some time.  The number of Catholics in the U.S. has held steady due to immigration from Latin America and not from fresh converts replacing all those who have left the church.  Mainline protestant numbers have also, to my recollection, been falling.</p>
<p>Another problem is simply that past efforts to convert Muslims to Christianity simply have not succeeded.  Indeed, I think Muslims would be of a similar mind to Jews in that many would regard specific attempts to convert them to Christianity as highly offensive and patronizing.</p>
<p>It is a rather tone-deaf suggestion.  If &#8220;secular&#8221; Christianity provides a way out of Islamic radicalism, why doesn&#8217;t the mostly &#8220;secular&#8221; version of Islam practiced among the educated Muslim populations of places like Bosnia, Istanbul or Bombay provide a similar way out?  Salman Rushdie once defined a Bombay Muslim as a middle-class merchant of ostensibly Islamic upbringing whose main object of worship was money and commerce.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/06/14/a-former-muslim-who-favors-christian-proselytism/comment-page-1/#comment-16613</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jun 2010 13:54:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=17155#comment-16613</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Why does anyone think this drivel is worth anyone&#039;s time?  Just because Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a former Muslim, not white, and takes up the banner of feminism and the Enlightenment she can say the most ridiculous things and be taken seriously.

I mean, it&#039;s one thing to say that Christians should convert Muslims (and I would agree).  But coming from a non-Christian who clearly just has a vendetta against Islam rather than any recognition of the truth of Christian doctrine, such a claim becomes quite odd.  Yes, let&#039;s build &quot;Christian centres&quot; next to every mosque when Europe really needs reevangelization of baptized Christians already.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why does anyone think this drivel is worth anyone&#8217;s time?  Just because Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a former Muslim, not white, and takes up the banner of feminism and the Enlightenment she can say the most ridiculous things and be taken seriously.</p>
<p>I mean, it&#8217;s one thing to say that Christians should convert Muslims (and I would agree).  But coming from a non-Christian who clearly just has a vendetta against Islam rather than any recognition of the truth of Christian doctrine, such a claim becomes quite odd.  Yes, let&#8217;s build &#8220;Christian centres&#8221; next to every mosque when Europe really needs reevangelization of baptized Christians already.</p>
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