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	<title>Comments on: Cut-Price Judaism? Puh-leeze!</title>
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		<title>By: Republican</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/07/12/cut-price-judaism-puh-leeze/comment-page-1/#comment-19201</link>
		<dc:creator>Republican</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 14:16:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=18312#comment-19201</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] conversion bill moves ahead, draws angerThe Associated PressHa&#8217;aretz&#160;-First Things (blog)&#160;-Ynetnewsall 211 news [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] conversion bill moves ahead, draws angerThe Associated PressHa&#8217;aretz&nbsp;-First Things (blog)&nbsp;-Ynetnewsall 211 news [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention Cut-Price Judaism? Puh-leeze! » First Thoughts &#124; A First Things Blog -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/07/12/cut-price-judaism-puh-leeze/comment-page-1/#comment-19194</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention Cut-Price Judaism? Puh-leeze! » First Thoughts &#124; A First Things Blog -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 08:19:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Jewish Ideas Daily, DNC DUDES. DNC DUDES said: Cut-Price Judaism? Puh-leeze!: Newsweek religion commentator Lisa Miller complains that the cost of synagogue... http://bit.ly/9327Ob #tcot [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Jewish Ideas Daily, DNC DUDES. DNC DUDES said: Cut-Price Judaism? Puh-leeze!: Newsweek religion commentator Lisa Miller complains that the cost of synagogue&#8230; <a href="http://bit.ly/9327Ob" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/9327Ob</a> #tcot [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Republican</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/07/12/cut-price-judaism-puh-leeze/comment-page-1/#comment-19188</link>
		<dc:creator>Republican</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 04:18:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[[...] PressReform and Conservative Jews fuming ahead of Knesset vote on conversionsHa&#8217;aretzFirst Things (blog)&#160;-Ynetnews&#160;-Jewish Telegraphic Agency (blog)all 205 news [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] PressReform and Conservative Jews fuming ahead of Knesset vote on conversionsHa&#8217;aretzFirst Things (blog)&nbsp;-Ynetnews&nbsp;-Jewish Telegraphic Agency (blog)all 205 news [...]</p>
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		<title>By: MarcH</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/07/12/cut-price-judaism-puh-leeze/comment-page-1/#comment-19187</link>
		<dc:creator>MarcH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 04:00:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=18312#comment-19187</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David - Baruch Tihyeh.  One more point about the est. $300,000 that my wife and I have spent so far on day school for our four kids ... as an investment it has held up better than our mutual funds.

Walter - The answer according to traditional Jewish law is that a Jew is anyone born of a Jewish mother or lawfully converted to Judaism (for a fuller explanation you will have to consult a qualified rabbi).  Of course that basic definition indicates almost nothing about any particular Jew&#039;s familiarity with or affinity for Judaism.  Perhaps a helpful analogy might be American citizenship.  A person can be a native born American citizen but still be entirely estranged from traditional American values and hostile to American interests.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David &#8211; Baruch Tihyeh.  One more point about the est. $300,000 that my wife and I have spent so far on day school for our four kids &#8230; as an investment it has held up better than our mutual funds.</p>
<p>Walter &#8211; The answer according to traditional Jewish law is that a Jew is anyone born of a Jewish mother or lawfully converted to Judaism (for a fuller explanation you will have to consult a qualified rabbi).  Of course that basic definition indicates almost nothing about any particular Jew&#8217;s familiarity with or affinity for Judaism.  Perhaps a helpful analogy might be American citizenship.  A person can be a native born American citizen but still be entirely estranged from traditional American values and hostile to American interests.</p>
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		<title>By: Walter Lewkowski</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/07/12/cut-price-judaism-puh-leeze/comment-page-1/#comment-19183</link>
		<dc:creator>Walter Lewkowski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 02:38:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=18312#comment-19183</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[“I think this post (and the comments by Ellen) will be very helpful in giving non-Jews an insight into Jewish American life.”

Really?  I’m more confused than ever.  

There are 6.5 million &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Jews&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jews&lt;/a&gt; in America.

The fact that “In 2008, 2.7 million Americans called themselves religiously Jewish, down from 3.1 million in 1990.” brings on the question:  Who is a Jew and what is it that makes a person a Jew?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“I think this post (and the comments by Ellen) will be very helpful in giving non-Jews an insight into Jewish American life.”</p>
<p>Really?  I’m more confused than ever.  </p>
<p>There are 6.5 million <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Jews" rel="nofollow">Jews</a> in America.</p>
<p>The fact that “In 2008, 2.7 million Americans called themselves religiously Jewish, down from 3.1 million in 1990.” brings on the question:  Who is a Jew and what is it that makes a person a Jew?</p>
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		<title>By: David Goldman</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/07/12/cut-price-judaism-puh-leeze/comment-page-1/#comment-19169</link>
		<dc:creator>David Goldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 22:49:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=18312#comment-19169</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[MarcH,
Kol hakavod! As a late in life baal tshuvah who came to Orthodoxy after many years at Conservative shuls, I&#039;ve been in the same boat (and in the same deep water). All I can add is that the more mitzvot I&#039;ve taken on, the happier I&#039;ve been.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MarcH,<br />
Kol hakavod! As a late in life baal tshuvah who came to Orthodoxy after many years at Conservative shuls, I&#8217;ve been in the same boat (and in the same deep water). All I can add is that the more mitzvot I&#8217;ve taken on, the happier I&#8217;ve been.</p>
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		<title>By: MarcH</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/07/12/cut-price-judaism-puh-leeze/comment-page-1/#comment-19164</link>
		<dc:creator>MarcH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 22:00:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=18312#comment-19164</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think this post (and the comments by Ellen) will be very helpful in giving non-Jews an insight into Jewish American life.  

My wife and I have sent our four children to Modern Orthodox Jewish day schools since kindergarten.  Fees are generally $10,000 per year for K to 8 and $20,000 per year for 9 to 12.  Tuition is generally higher in the most expensive metro areas (NYC, LA, etc.).  It is obviously a tremendous burden*, but as David notes, how much are you willing to pay for Olam Habah (or even Jewish continuity)?  It should also be noted that there is often some form of private financial aid available.

I grew up in a fairly unobservant Conservative Jewish household and originally began to study with Orthodox Jewish outreach groups in order to a become better Jew in a Conservative environment.  I eventually came to the painful conclusion that it is mostly only Orthodox Jews who promote effective Jewish continuity and engagement with the God who expresses himself through our Torah (Torah understood as not just the Pentateuch, but the whole body of traditional Jewish learning and worship).    Orthodox life is difficult, and I consider myself a follower of Rosenzweig’s “Not Yet” approach.  My wife and I jumped and swam for Orthodox Judaism as the only lifeboat in a stormy sea.  

Sadly, among non-Orthodox Jews, there are only small pockets who are sincerely interested in engaging with our Torah (for example some small minyanim (prayer groups) organized by alums of JTS).   

It’s my impression that, outside of Orthodoxy, the organized Jewish world blows with the winds of fashion in elite opinion.   This is not to say that there are not tremendous problems within Orthodoxy or that there are not Reform, Conservative and secular Jews who are wonderful people who do great things for the mankind and the Jewish people.  I just don&#039;t think that they will have too many Jewish descendents.

  * for those who enjoy irony, we were able to afford the last few years of day school tuition due to my generous salary as an advisor to the US Army in Iraq]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this post (and the comments by Ellen) will be very helpful in giving non-Jews an insight into Jewish American life.  </p>
<p>My wife and I have sent our four children to Modern Orthodox Jewish day schools since kindergarten.  Fees are generally $10,000 per year for K to 8 and $20,000 per year for 9 to 12.  Tuition is generally higher in the most expensive metro areas (NYC, LA, etc.).  It is obviously a tremendous burden*, but as David notes, how much are you willing to pay for Olam Habah (or even Jewish continuity)?  It should also be noted that there is often some form of private financial aid available.</p>
<p>I grew up in a fairly unobservant Conservative Jewish household and originally began to study with Orthodox Jewish outreach groups in order to a become better Jew in a Conservative environment.  I eventually came to the painful conclusion that it is mostly only Orthodox Jews who promote effective Jewish continuity and engagement with the God who expresses himself through our Torah (Torah understood as not just the Pentateuch, but the whole body of traditional Jewish learning and worship).    Orthodox life is difficult, and I consider myself a follower of Rosenzweig’s “Not Yet” approach.  My wife and I jumped and swam for Orthodox Judaism as the only lifeboat in a stormy sea.  </p>
<p>Sadly, among non-Orthodox Jews, there are only small pockets who are sincerely interested in engaging with our Torah (for example some small minyanim (prayer groups) organized by alums of JTS).   </p>
<p>It’s my impression that, outside of Orthodoxy, the organized Jewish world blows with the winds of fashion in elite opinion.   This is not to say that there are not tremendous problems within Orthodoxy or that there are not Reform, Conservative and secular Jews who are wonderful people who do great things for the mankind and the Jewish people.  I just don&#8217;t think that they will have too many Jewish descendents.</p>
<p>  * for those who enjoy irony, we were able to afford the last few years of day school tuition due to my generous salary as an advisor to the US Army in Iraq</p>
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		<title>By: David Goldman</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/07/12/cut-price-judaism-puh-leeze/comment-page-1/#comment-19126</link>
		<dc:creator>David Goldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 18:15:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=18312#comment-19126</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ellen,
I don&#039;t know Lisa Miller&#039;s level of observance and mean no disrespect to her personally. But there is something entirely misplaced in examining the marginal utility of religious affiliation. 
Suppose I offer you a share in HaOlam HaBa-ah (the World to Come) for $2,000 a year. If you think the World to Come is a fairy tale, you won&#039;t pay $200 a year. If you think it is part of God&#039;s promise, you&#039;ll pay whatever you have to.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ellen,<br />
I don&#8217;t know Lisa Miller&#8217;s level of observance and mean no disrespect to her personally. But there is something entirely misplaced in examining the marginal utility of religious affiliation.<br />
Suppose I offer you a share in HaOlam HaBa-ah (the World to Come) for $2,000 a year. If you think the World to Come is a fairy tale, you won&#8217;t pay $200 a year. If you think it is part of God&#8217;s promise, you&#8217;ll pay whatever you have to.</p>
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		<title>By: JB in CA</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/07/12/cut-price-judaism-puh-leeze/comment-page-1/#comment-19123</link>
		<dc:creator>JB in CA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 17:45:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=18312#comment-19123</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, David, your 11:07 am post was very informative. I wasn&#039;t sure how all of that worked.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, David, your 11:07 am post was very informative. I wasn&#8217;t sure how all of that worked.</p>
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		<title>By: Ellen</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/07/12/cut-price-judaism-puh-leeze/comment-page-1/#comment-19114</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 15:32:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=18312#comment-19114</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Synagogue dues are an issue for families whose budgets are already stretched thin by high day school tuitions, but as Mr. Goldman pointed out that is mainly the Orthodox who have the highest rate of synagogue attendence (100%), so clearly that is not the real issue here.  It is being used as an excuse by less committed Jews for their nonmembership.  Chabad does provide a much needed service, though, by encouraging participation in religious life without formal dues (they ask for voluntary contributions instead).  This makes it less embarassing for a modest income family to attend without going through all sorts of financial aid requests.

However, the main exception I have to Lisa Miller&#039;s essay is her contention that synagogues should be encouraging more Jews to join regardless of their commitment level.  This strategy, pursued in the 1950&#039;s through 1980&#039;s by the Reform movement, is now leading to its demise, while the opposite strategy pursued by the Orthodox has led to its resurgence.  What the Jewish community needs are more committed Jews, not more nominal Jews like Lisa Miller.  Committed Jews are far more numerous today than 40 years ago, although the nominal number may have shrunk a bit, but more of them are in the Orthodox camp and that is where the future of Judaism lies.  

As Jacob Neusner once commented, &quot;We are not competing with the Chinese.&quot; Judaism survives because of the high level of commitment and knowledge of a small group of people, not the low level of commitment of a large group of people.  That has been true for thousands of years, and the American situation is no different than all the others.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Synagogue dues are an issue for families whose budgets are already stretched thin by high day school tuitions, but as Mr. Goldman pointed out that is mainly the Orthodox who have the highest rate of synagogue attendence (100%), so clearly that is not the real issue here.  It is being used as an excuse by less committed Jews for their nonmembership.  Chabad does provide a much needed service, though, by encouraging participation in religious life without formal dues (they ask for voluntary contributions instead).  This makes it less embarassing for a modest income family to attend without going through all sorts of financial aid requests.</p>
<p>However, the main exception I have to Lisa Miller&#8217;s essay is her contention that synagogues should be encouraging more Jews to join regardless of their commitment level.  This strategy, pursued in the 1950&#8242;s through 1980&#8242;s by the Reform movement, is now leading to its demise, while the opposite strategy pursued by the Orthodox has led to its resurgence.  What the Jewish community needs are more committed Jews, not more nominal Jews like Lisa Miller.  Committed Jews are far more numerous today than 40 years ago, although the nominal number may have shrunk a bit, but more of them are in the Orthodox camp and that is where the future of Judaism lies.  </p>
<p>As Jacob Neusner once commented, &#8220;We are not competing with the Chinese.&#8221; Judaism survives because of the high level of commitment and knowledge of a small group of people, not the low level of commitment of a large group of people.  That has been true for thousands of years, and the American situation is no different than all the others.</p>
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