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	<title>Comments on: Catholicism in Europe</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/08/10/catholocism-in-europe/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
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		<title>By: The Economist&#8217;s Catholic Blind Spots &#187; First Thoughts &#124; A First Things Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/08/10/catholocism-in-europe/comment-page-1/#comment-22109</link>
		<dc:creator>The Economist&#8217;s Catholic Blind Spots &#187; First Thoughts &#124; A First Things Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Aug 2010 21:02:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=19908#comment-22109</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] latest article on Catholicism, The Void Within — which R. R. Reno wrote about in Catholicism in Europe — argues that parts of European Catholicism are dying and parts reviving. Insofar as it goes, [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] latest article on Catholicism, The Void Within — which R. R. Reno wrote about in Catholicism in Europe — argues that parts of European Catholicism are dying and parts reviving. Insofar as it goes, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Heraclitus</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/08/10/catholocism-in-europe/comment-page-1/#comment-21862</link>
		<dc:creator>Heraclitus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:41:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=19908#comment-21862</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What Ed says is not so off the point: my father&#039;s family immigrated to America from France a century ago, devout Catholics all.  Almost all my favorite modern Catholic philosophers, theologians and spiritual writers have been French.  Thus, to see the present state of the French Church makes me unspeakably sad.  But with Christ there is always hope and I try to say a prayer every so often for my fellow Catholics in France and for the resurrection of their Church, something that is well within the power of God to bring about.  There have been stranger turns in history!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Ed says is not so off the point: my father&#8217;s family immigrated to America from France a century ago, devout Catholics all.  Almost all my favorite modern Catholic philosophers, theologians and spiritual writers have been French.  Thus, to see the present state of the French Church makes me unspeakably sad.  But with Christ there is always hope and I try to say a prayer every so often for my fellow Catholics in France and for the resurrection of their Church, something that is well within the power of God to bring about.  There have been stranger turns in history!</p>
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		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/08/10/catholocism-in-europe/comment-page-1/#comment-21784</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 19:46:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=19908#comment-21784</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Please pardon me for what I want to say is rather off the point.- but the article reminded me of how saddening it is that I, an octogenerian first generation American , have not a single French cousin in a very large family - who remains a practicing Catholic . I am quite sure that all their children-few in number as they are- also remain alienated from the Church. As best as I can tell that happened- at least in my family- in one generation.  We  American Catholics must not allow ourselves any sense of false security. Somehow secularism exerts a very strong pull here too. We must pray for our young and find ways to improve their formation in the Faith.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please pardon me for what I want to say is rather off the point.- but the article reminded me of how saddening it is that I, an octogenerian first generation American , have not a single French cousin in a very large family &#8211; who remains a practicing Catholic . I am quite sure that all their children-few in number as they are- also remain alienated from the Church. As best as I can tell that happened- at least in my family- in one generation.  We  American Catholics must not allow ourselves any sense of false security. Somehow secularism exerts a very strong pull here too. We must pray for our young and find ways to improve their formation in the Faith.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Melendez</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/08/10/catholocism-in-europe/comment-page-1/#comment-21782</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Melendez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 19:39:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=19908#comment-21782</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Richard M raises good points but, in the U.S. at least, they are two decades out of date. Yes, two decades. The church has worked the problem in those two decades and continues to do so. The Globe&#039;s revelations greatly empowered that effort, but that was eight years ago now. Yet the approaches, whether the 18th century L.a.d.R. or the reasonable Richard, are all phrased as if the crisis were occurring today.

In Europe, I don&#039;t know the figures and they may not be available as they have been in the U.S. for many years now. But, hasn&#039;t Richard noticed that the &quot;worst offenders&quot; have already been removed as the American side was years back? The question is and will continue to be: what do we do now? How do we help prevent that culture from returning?  R.R. Reno is looking ahead and I, for one, appreciate it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard M raises good points but, in the U.S. at least, they are two decades out of date. Yes, two decades. The church has worked the problem in those two decades and continues to do so. The Globe&#8217;s revelations greatly empowered that effort, but that was eight years ago now. Yet the approaches, whether the 18th century L.a.d.R. or the reasonable Richard, are all phrased as if the crisis were occurring today.</p>
<p>In Europe, I don&#8217;t know the figures and they may not be available as they have been in the U.S. for many years now. But, hasn&#8217;t Richard noticed that the &#8220;worst offenders&#8221; have already been removed as the American side was years back? The question is and will continue to be: what do we do now? How do we help prevent that culture from returning?  R.R. Reno is looking ahead and I, for one, appreciate it.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard M</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/08/10/catholocism-in-europe/comment-page-1/#comment-21768</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:03:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=19908#comment-21768</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Our friend of Robespierre not only shows how resilient jacobin enthusiasms can be, he also asks a worthwhile question, if not exactly the one he intended.  Will we give our support to those who perpetrated and covered up these crimes?

LADR assumes it is the entire Catholic Church responsible for this.  He makes no finer distinctions.  Benedictine sisters or Franciscans working that soup kitchen, good parish priests (yes, they do exist) quietly keeping their parishes running and administering sacraments and comfort to the afflicted - all lumped in the same boat.  At best, they&#039;re useful dupes.

It&#039;s bootless, however, not to look more closely at how these things happened - at who is responsible.  The Vatican is an easy and popular target.  And to be sure, feckless curial officials like Cardinal Sodano (who did so much to enable Marciel Macial) don&#039;t do much to dispel such impressions.  But the truth is that the Vatican had at best a very marginal role in the sex scandals, and anyone who understands how it really works would know this.  Curia offices are thinly staffed and rarely efficient; and they, like the Pope above, are almost entirely dependent on the information given them by bishops and their offices.  

And it&#039;s these closed circles of episcopal elites - who have perpetuated themselves in key national conferences throughout the West - who have overseen these crimes over the last four or five decades, just as they have the virtual collapse of their charges.  Why have Catholics not demanded that more episcopal heads role?  Why not more urgency for an overhaul of leadership?  

Under Benedict XVI the quality level of appointments has gone up quite a lot, at least in the U.S.  That helps. But it would also help if a sterner message was sent by the removal, directly or indirectly, of the worst offenders before their canonical retirement age.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our friend of Robespierre not only shows how resilient jacobin enthusiasms can be, he also asks a worthwhile question, if not exactly the one he intended.  Will we give our support to those who perpetrated and covered up these crimes?</p>
<p>LADR assumes it is the entire Catholic Church responsible for this.  He makes no finer distinctions.  Benedictine sisters or Franciscans working that soup kitchen, good parish priests (yes, they do exist) quietly keeping their parishes running and administering sacraments and comfort to the afflicted &#8211; all lumped in the same boat.  At best, they&#8217;re useful dupes.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s bootless, however, not to look more closely at how these things happened &#8211; at who is responsible.  The Vatican is an easy and popular target.  And to be sure, feckless curial officials like Cardinal Sodano (who did so much to enable Marciel Macial) don&#8217;t do much to dispel such impressions.  But the truth is that the Vatican had at best a very marginal role in the sex scandals, and anyone who understands how it really works would know this.  Curia offices are thinly staffed and rarely efficient; and they, like the Pope above, are almost entirely dependent on the information given them by bishops and their offices.  </p>
<p>And it&#8217;s these closed circles of episcopal elites &#8211; who have perpetuated themselves in key national conferences throughout the West &#8211; who have overseen these crimes over the last four or five decades, just as they have the virtual collapse of their charges.  Why have Catholics not demanded that more episcopal heads role?  Why not more urgency for an overhaul of leadership?  </p>
<p>Under Benedict XVI the quality level of appointments has gone up quite a lot, at least in the U.S.  That helps. But it would also help if a sterner message was sent by the removal, directly or indirectly, of the worst offenders before their canonical retirement age.</p>
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		<title>By: Heraclitus</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/08/10/catholocism-in-europe/comment-page-1/#comment-21752</link>
		<dc:creator>Heraclitus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:46:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=19908#comment-21752</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with Joe: the great stength of the Catholic Church is that, unlike its adversaries, it takes a long view of history.  The secular ideologies that so loudly blustered that they would destroy the Church (like our Ami de Robspierre) have all collapsed and died under their own inner contradictions (one thinks of Communism - once seemingly on the verge of world triumph, now confined to such anachromisms and Cuba and North Korea).  They have all been mere blips on screen of the Church.  Ironically, in the Darwinian &quot;struggle for survival&quot; of ideas, religious faith always proves itself far more powerful than secular enthusiams.  What we are witnessing in Europe is not the death of the Catholic faith, but the slow, whimpering death of secular humanism as it melts away in a tepid relativism and a demographic implosion.  The decline of the Catholic faith in Europe is only the most salient symptom of this disease.  But the Church elsewhere around the globe is doing quite nicely, thank you.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Joe: the great stength of the Catholic Church is that, unlike its adversaries, it takes a long view of history.  The secular ideologies that so loudly blustered that they would destroy the Church (like our Ami de Robspierre) have all collapsed and died under their own inner contradictions (one thinks of Communism &#8211; once seemingly on the verge of world triumph, now confined to such anachromisms and Cuba and North Korea).  They have all been mere blips on screen of the Church.  Ironically, in the Darwinian &#8220;struggle for survival&#8221; of ideas, religious faith always proves itself far more powerful than secular enthusiams.  What we are witnessing in Europe is not the death of the Catholic faith, but the slow, whimpering death of secular humanism as it melts away in a tepid relativism and a demographic implosion.  The decline of the Catholic faith in Europe is only the most salient symptom of this disease.  But the Church elsewhere around the globe is doing quite nicely, thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: Krakow</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/08/10/catholocism-in-europe/comment-page-1/#comment-21751</link>
		<dc:creator>Krakow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:45:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=19908#comment-21751</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Finished reading a Ted Turner biography which also made Jerry Levin of Time Warner seem pathetic.  And Murdoch might be craziest of all of them.  The sooner some of these media outlets go bankrupt the better.   It takes a while to find great writers on the internet.  R. R. Reno&#039;s composure is a lift above the swamp.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Finished reading a Ted Turner biography which also made Jerry Levin of Time Warner seem pathetic.  And Murdoch might be craziest of all of them.  The sooner some of these media outlets go bankrupt the better.   It takes a while to find great writers on the internet.  R. R. Reno&#8217;s composure is a lift above the swamp.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe DeVet</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/08/10/catholocism-in-europe/comment-page-1/#comment-21742</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe DeVet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 12:38:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=19908#comment-21742</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[...and, incidentally, long after the Judges of the Church, namely the Economist along with Newsweek and Time have gone to their eternal destiny, bankruptcy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;and, incidentally, long after the Judges of the Church, namely the Economist along with Newsweek and Time have gone to their eternal destiny, bankruptcy.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe DeVet</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/08/10/catholocism-in-europe/comment-page-1/#comment-21741</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe DeVet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 12:37:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=19908#comment-21741</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Looks like the Whore of Babylon has raised its ugly head again.

The bottom line is, can the Church survive?  A question which has been asked hundreds of times over 2000 years.

Who can know the future to ask such a question.  All we have is a promise and a number of hints from history to surmise this: the Catholic Church will be still standing, still fulfilling its mission from Christ (however imperfectly), long after Western culture in its European form has dissolved into Muslim theocracy, long after the USA has passed into history, and, more personally to you, my friend and I, long after we have gone to our eternal destiny.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks like the Whore of Babylon has raised its ugly head again.</p>
<p>The bottom line is, can the Church survive?  A question which has been asked hundreds of times over 2000 years.</p>
<p>Who can know the future to ask such a question.  All we have is a promise and a number of hints from history to surmise this: the Catholic Church will be still standing, still fulfilling its mission from Christ (however imperfectly), long after Western culture in its European form has dissolved into Muslim theocracy, long after the USA has passed into history, and, more personally to you, my friend and I, long after we have gone to our eternal destiny.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/08/10/catholocism-in-europe/comment-page-1/#comment-21739</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 11:54:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=19908#comment-21739</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Robespierre&#039;s Friend - As your friend remarked
L’athéisme est aristocratique ; l’idée d’un grand être qui veille sur l’innocence opprimée, &amp; qui punit le crime triomphant, est toute populaire. Le peuple, les malheureux m’applaudissent ; si je trouvais des censeurs, ce serait parmi les riches &amp; parmi les coupables [Atheism is aristocratic; the idea of a great Being who watches over oppressed innocence and who punishes triumphant crime is wholy popular.  The people, the wretched would applaud me; if I were to find critics, it would be among the rich and among the guilty]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robespierre&#8217;s Friend &#8211; As your friend remarked<br />
L’athéisme est aristocratique ; l’idée d’un grand être qui veille sur l’innocence opprimée, &#038; qui punit le crime triomphant, est toute populaire. Le peuple, les malheureux m’applaudissent ; si je trouvais des censeurs, ce serait parmi les riches &#038; parmi les coupables [Atheism is aristocratic; the idea of a great Being who watches over oppressed innocence and who punishes triumphant crime is wholy popular.  The people, the wretched would applaud me; if I were to find critics, it would be among the rich and among the guilty]</p>
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