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	<title>Comments on: Here Comes Polygamy</title>
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		<title>By: SteveW</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/07/here-comes-polygamy/comment-page-1/#comment-23872</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:13:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=21079#comment-23872</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Craig, Yes this is indeed the case. I saw an excellent documentary a couple of years ago on the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints (FLDS) and it covered this phenomenon. In the area of Utah and Arizona where the FLDS is concentrated there is a subculture of teenage boys and young men who have been exiled from the church. The tragedy is that having spent their entire lives in a community largely cut off from the outside world, these boys are totally at sea once they get kicked out and often wind up homeless, involved in drugs, and so on. It answered a question I&#039;d always had about how the FLDS could provide multiple wives for all the adult men, when the natural breakdown of genders in a population will be roughly 50/50. The answer is they can&#039;t, so they have to reduce the number of marriageable males.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Craig, Yes this is indeed the case. I saw an excellent documentary a couple of years ago on the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints (FLDS) and it covered this phenomenon. In the area of Utah and Arizona where the FLDS is concentrated there is a subculture of teenage boys and young men who have been exiled from the church. The tragedy is that having spent their entire lives in a community largely cut off from the outside world, these boys are totally at sea once they get kicked out and often wind up homeless, involved in drugs, and so on. It answered a question I&#8217;d always had about how the FLDS could provide multiple wives for all the adult men, when the natural breakdown of genders in a population will be roughly 50/50. The answer is they can&#8217;t, so they have to reduce the number of marriageable males.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Payne</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/07/here-comes-polygamy/comment-page-1/#comment-23854</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 23:59:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=21079#comment-23854</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Thus the effect in fundamentalist Mormon communities of teenage boys being exiled from the community on the slightest of pretexts so as to eliminate them from the competition, since there are not enough women to go around.&quot;

I did not know of this.  Creepy, I think.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Thus the effect in fundamentalist Mormon communities of teenage boys being exiled from the community on the slightest of pretexts so as to eliminate them from the competition, since there are not enough women to go around.&#8221;</p>
<p>I did not know of this.  Creepy, I think.</p>
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		<title>By: SteveW</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/07/here-comes-polygamy/comment-page-1/#comment-23846</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 20:25:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=21079#comment-23846</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks JDD and Craig.

It occurs to me that at least in the case of Abraham and Jacob, they were not so much choosing to be polygamous as having polygamy forced upon them by circumstances. In Abraham&#039;s case from Sarah&#039;s desire to provide an heir even if by way of her maidservant, and in Jacob&#039;s case by being hoodwinked by his father-in-law. They certainly were not following the model of polygamy as presented above, in which a man essentially accumulates wives as a way of aggrandizing his standing in a community (or even in his own eyes). That is one reason why I would not dismiss the argument that at least one reason to object to polygamy is that it institutionalizes the dominance of the husband as opposed to the model of mutuality described in the NT.

Plus, polygamy is a lousy way to organize a society. It puts men into competition with each other for a &quot;resource&quot; rendered intentionally scarce. Thus the effect in fundamentalist Mormon communities of teenage boys being exiled from the community on the slightest of pretexts so as to eliminate them from the competition, since there are not enough women to go around.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks JDD and Craig.</p>
<p>It occurs to me that at least in the case of Abraham and Jacob, they were not so much choosing to be polygamous as having polygamy forced upon them by circumstances. In Abraham&#8217;s case from Sarah&#8217;s desire to provide an heir even if by way of her maidservant, and in Jacob&#8217;s case by being hoodwinked by his father-in-law. They certainly were not following the model of polygamy as presented above, in which a man essentially accumulates wives as a way of aggrandizing his standing in a community (or even in his own eyes). That is one reason why I would not dismiss the argument that at least one reason to object to polygamy is that it institutionalizes the dominance of the husband as opposed to the model of mutuality described in the NT.</p>
<p>Plus, polygamy is a lousy way to organize a society. It puts men into competition with each other for a &#8220;resource&#8221; rendered intentionally scarce. Thus the effect in fundamentalist Mormon communities of teenage boys being exiled from the community on the slightest of pretexts so as to eliminate them from the competition, since there are not enough women to go around.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Payne</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/07/here-comes-polygamy/comment-page-1/#comment-23843</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 19:37:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=21079#comment-23843</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The natural constitution of humans reveals that when a man and a woman engage in intimacy, pregnancy often occurs.  Though there are other purposes for sex, procreation is the biological end.

And that can only happen between one man and one woman--no other way.

So the natural constitution of human sexuality also reveals the New Testament picture of marriage.  Despite what was or wasn&#039;t permitted in the Old Testament, the natural law and the New Testament revelation contravene polygamy.

It might be said that this is not a biblical argument against polygamy.  But I would argue that first of all, the biblical argument isn&#039;t necessary because the natural argument applies to all, and secondly, the natural argument lies behind the biblical argument and is occasionally mentioned in the Bible itself.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The natural constitution of humans reveals that when a man and a woman engage in intimacy, pregnancy often occurs.  Though there are other purposes for sex, procreation is the biological end.</p>
<p>And that can only happen between one man and one woman&#8211;no other way.</p>
<p>So the natural constitution of human sexuality also reveals the New Testament picture of marriage.  Despite what was or wasn&#8217;t permitted in the Old Testament, the natural law and the New Testament revelation contravene polygamy.</p>
<p>It might be said that this is not a biblical argument against polygamy.  But I would argue that first of all, the biblical argument isn&#8217;t necessary because the natural argument applies to all, and secondly, the natural argument lies behind the biblical argument and is occasionally mentioned in the Bible itself.</p>
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		<title>By: Random Blog Posts and Stuff &#171; Cheese-Wearing Theology</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/07/here-comes-polygamy/comment-page-1/#comment-23762</link>
		<dc:creator>Random Blog Posts and Stuff &#171; Cheese-Wearing Theology</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 17:51:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=21079#comment-23762</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Jesus Needs New PR and Evangel have both pointed to this interesting trailer for a new show on [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Jesus Needs New PR and Evangel have both pointed to this interesting trailer for a new show on [...]</p>
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		<title>By: JDD</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/07/here-comes-polygamy/comment-page-1/#comment-23757</link>
		<dc:creator>JDD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 17:25:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=21079#comment-23757</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Steve W,

Thanks for a very intelligent question.  Here at least is the Catholic response to that question, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 1610:


&quot;Moral conscience concerning the unity and indissolubility of marriage developed under the pedagogy of the old law. In the Old Testament the polygamy of patriarchs and kings is not yet explicitly rejected. Nevertheless, the law given to Moses aims at protecting the wife from arbitrary domination by the husband, even though according to the Lord&#039;s words it still carries traces of man&#039;s &quot;hardness of heart&quot; which was the reason Moses permitted men to divorce their wives.  [see Matt 19:8 and Deut 24:1] 


1611 Seeing God&#039;s covenant with Israel in the image of exclusive and faithful married love, the prophets prepared the Chosen People&#039;s conscience for a deepened understanding of the unity and indissolubility of marriage. The books of Ruth and Tobit bear moving witness to an elevated sense of marriage...&quot;


There were practices which we believe God directed Moses to allow for a time, but with boundaries in order to bring some semblance of order to them - and when Christ came he permamanetly raised the bar back to its original intent.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve W,</p>
<p>Thanks for a very intelligent question.  Here at least is the Catholic response to that question, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 1610:</p>
<p>&#8220;Moral conscience concerning the unity and indissolubility of marriage developed under the pedagogy of the old law. In the Old Testament the polygamy of patriarchs and kings is not yet explicitly rejected. Nevertheless, the law given to Moses aims at protecting the wife from arbitrary domination by the husband, even though according to the Lord&#8217;s words it still carries traces of man&#8217;s &#8220;hardness of heart&#8221; which was the reason Moses permitted men to divorce their wives.  [see Matt 19:8 and Deut 24:1] </p>
<p>1611 Seeing God&#8217;s covenant with Israel in the image of exclusive and faithful married love, the prophets prepared the Chosen People&#8217;s conscience for a deepened understanding of the unity and indissolubility of marriage. The books of Ruth and Tobit bear moving witness to an elevated sense of marriage&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>There were practices which we believe God directed Moses to allow for a time, but with boundaries in order to bring some semblance of order to them &#8211; and when Christ came he permamanetly raised the bar back to its original intent.</p>
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		<title>By: pentamom</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/07/here-comes-polygamy/comment-page-1/#comment-23755</link>
		<dc:creator>pentamom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 17:13:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=21079#comment-23755</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yeah, you base the case on the NT insistence on monogamy as befitting the godly man. It still makes for a hard theoretical question, maybe, of why polygamy was tolerated, but it&#039;s easy enough to establish that monogamy is now the standard.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, you base the case on the NT insistence on monogamy as befitting the godly man. It still makes for a hard theoretical question, maybe, of why polygamy was tolerated, but it&#8217;s easy enough to establish that monogamy is now the standard.</p>
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		<title>By: SteveW</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/07/here-comes-polygamy/comment-page-1/#comment-23746</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 15:19:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=21079#comment-23746</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am not in favor of legalizing or normalizing polygamy, but in these matters I rarely if ever see discussions of how the polygamy (and concubinage) of the patriarchs of the Old Testament fits into the notion that God objects to polygamy. There seems to be nothing against it in the OT that I can see. Would anyone care to enlighten me on how one can make a Biblical argument against polygamy in light of the OT tolerance of it?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not in favor of legalizing or normalizing polygamy, but in these matters I rarely if ever see discussions of how the polygamy (and concubinage) of the patriarchs of the Old Testament fits into the notion that God objects to polygamy. There seems to be nothing against it in the OT that I can see. Would anyone care to enlighten me on how one can make a Biblical argument against polygamy in light of the OT tolerance of it?</p>
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		<title>By: Saint Louis</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/07/here-comes-polygamy/comment-page-1/#comment-23743</link>
		<dc:creator>Saint Louis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 13:56:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=21079#comment-23743</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One part of the script they are following is introducing the perversion in a way that fewer people will be quite so completely turned off by it.  They make a show about a man with three wives rather than a woman with three husbands because, for better or worse, many people are probably not quite so put off by the first concept; indeed, a lot of guys out there are probably a bit jealous.

It&#039;s the same with homosexual &quot;marriage.&quot;  Any time there&#039;s news about it, like when Prop 8 was overturned, the front pages of many papers will show pictures of two somewhat attractive lesbians rather than a more representative photo that no one would want to look at.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One part of the script they are following is introducing the perversion in a way that fewer people will be quite so completely turned off by it.  They make a show about a man with three wives rather than a woman with three husbands because, for better or worse, many people are probably not quite so put off by the first concept; indeed, a lot of guys out there are probably a bit jealous.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the same with homosexual &#8220;marriage.&#8221;  Any time there&#8217;s news about it, like when Prop 8 was overturned, the front pages of many papers will show pictures of two somewhat attractive lesbians rather than a more representative photo that no one would want to look at.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/07/here-comes-polygamy/comment-page-1/#comment-23739</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 13:39:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=21079#comment-23739</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[JB,

You have to admit, sit-coms about the generational differences between a man and his fifteen year old girlfriend, or about a  transgender trying to make it on its own in The Big City, would be rife with comic potential and dramatic pathos.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JB,</p>
<p>You have to admit, sit-coms about the generational differences between a man and his fifteen year old girlfriend, or about a  transgender trying to make it on its own in The Big City, would be rife with comic potential and dramatic pathos.</p>
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