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	<title>Comments on: “Tell Me Now, What Are We Supposed to Do?”</title>
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		<title>By: Ray Ingles</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/15/%e2%80%9ctell-me-now-what-are-we-supposed-to-do%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-24425</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Ingles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Sep 2010 15:49:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=21400#comment-24425</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gary, Ars - you both seem to more-or-less concede that an argument won&#039;t convince Pope Benedict he&#039;s wrong, though he does claim to be open to reason. Is this not what William was talking about?

(And considering the place that dogma has in the Catholic church, saying the Pope &lt;i&gt;isn&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; dogmatic takes a certain amount of chutzpa, no? :) )]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gary, Ars &#8211; you both seem to more-or-less concede that an argument won&#8217;t convince Pope Benedict he&#8217;s wrong, though he does claim to be open to reason. Is this not what William was talking about?</p>
<p>(And considering the place that dogma has in the Catholic church, saying the Pope <i>isn&#8217;t</i> dogmatic takes a certain amount of chutzpa, no? :) )</p>
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		<title>By: Ars Artium</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/15/%e2%80%9ctell-me-now-what-are-we-supposed-to-do%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-24283</link>
		<dc:creator>Ars Artium</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Sep 2010 15:34:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=21400#comment-24283</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Response to  Ray Ingles:  Pope Benedict was referring to the fundamental dilemma of believers and non-believers of good will, that is, neither can offer absolute &quot;proof&quot; to the other.  Each can and must rely on a synthesis of reason, intuition, and lived experience, both within and without.  This synthesis led Josef Ratzinger to faith across the abyss of doubt, but he did not then lose all respect for the dignity of those who disagree. 

 On the contrary he is always willing to offer logical explanations for the content of his faith; to explain how he came to hold these beliefs.  He welcomes challenges. 

Of course this is in the hope that he will be able to offer something of value to his interlocutors, as he hopes, in turn, to receive something from them.  

&quot;Dogmatism&quot; is defined as &quot;positiveness in assertion of opinion esp. when unwarranted or arrogant&quot; or &quot;a viewpoint or system of ideas based on insufficiently examined premises&quot;.  

The point I hoped to make is that the faith and reason of Pope Benedict has nothing to do with &quot;dogmatism&quot; at least as defined.  Perhaps you had another meaning in mind.

Your question about &quot;the right argument&quot; for some reason brings to my mind the quality of a real love that has become part of oneself.  How could that love be destroyed?  I suppose only if it could be shown to be based on a figment of one&#039;s imagination, to have no reality other than in one&#039;s own mind, that irrefutable evidence could be produced of its falsity.

Perhaps someone else can provide a better response to that question.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Response to  Ray Ingles:  Pope Benedict was referring to the fundamental dilemma of believers and non-believers of good will, that is, neither can offer absolute &#8220;proof&#8221; to the other.  Each can and must rely on a synthesis of reason, intuition, and lived experience, both within and without.  This synthesis led Josef Ratzinger to faith across the abyss of doubt, but he did not then lose all respect for the dignity of those who disagree. </p>
<p> On the contrary he is always willing to offer logical explanations for the content of his faith; to explain how he came to hold these beliefs.  He welcomes challenges. </p>
<p>Of course this is in the hope that he will be able to offer something of value to his interlocutors, as he hopes, in turn, to receive something from them.  </p>
<p>&#8220;Dogmatism&#8221; is defined as &#8220;positiveness in assertion of opinion esp. when unwarranted or arrogant&#8221; or &#8220;a viewpoint or system of ideas based on insufficiently examined premises&#8221;.  </p>
<p>The point I hoped to make is that the faith and reason of Pope Benedict has nothing to do with &#8220;dogmatism&#8221; at least as defined.  Perhaps you had another meaning in mind.</p>
<p>Your question about &#8220;the right argument&#8221; for some reason brings to my mind the quality of a real love that has become part of oneself.  How could that love be destroyed?  I suppose only if it could be shown to be based on a figment of one&#8217;s imagination, to have no reality other than in one&#8217;s own mind, that irrefutable evidence could be produced of its falsity.</p>
<p>Perhaps someone else can provide a better response to that question.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Keith Chesterton</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/15/%e2%80%9ctell-me-now-what-are-we-supposed-to-do%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-24281</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Keith Chesterton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Sep 2010 15:12:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=21400#comment-24281</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;...are you contending that Pope Benedict would be willing to become an atheist “if only the right argument came along”?&lt;/i&gt;

This is a fascinating question.  

As I am sure you are aware, only two arguments against God are usually accorded real weight.  These are, of course, the argument from evil and the argument from lack of obvious necessity.  Arguments about cause and effect, though some think they are substantial, generally fail because they do not distinguish between essentially and accidentally ordered causation, or they deny essential causation altogether.

Now Benedict surely understands not only the arguments from evil and from lack of obvious necessity, but also the refutations of these arguments.

Why do some find these arguments persuausive, and others do not?  Why are some people able to &lt;i&gt;have faith&lt;/i&gt; or &lt;i&gt;be faithful&lt;/i&gt;, that is, to assign rational trust to God?  

There are people who understand rational arguments, professional academic philosophers, who have strong faith.  Others do not.  There are people like my grandmother, who lack even a grade school education, and are not read up on the scholastic philosophers, and yet have strong faith.  Others, similar ignorant and uneducated, do not believe.  Why is this?  I do not think that belief in God is simply a matter of deploying the right arguments.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8230;are you contending that Pope Benedict would be willing to become an atheist “if only the right argument came along”?</i></p>
<p>This is a fascinating question.  </p>
<p>As I am sure you are aware, only two arguments against God are usually accorded real weight.  These are, of course, the argument from evil and the argument from lack of obvious necessity.  Arguments about cause and effect, though some think they are substantial, generally fail because they do not distinguish between essentially and accidentally ordered causation, or they deny essential causation altogether.</p>
<p>Now Benedict surely understands not only the arguments from evil and from lack of obvious necessity, but also the refutations of these arguments.</p>
<p>Why do some find these arguments persuausive, and others do not?  Why are some people able to <i>have faith</i> or <i>be faithful</i>, that is, to assign rational trust to God?  </p>
<p>There are people who understand rational arguments, professional academic philosophers, who have strong faith.  Others do not.  There are people like my grandmother, who lack even a grade school education, and are not read up on the scholastic philosophers, and yet have strong faith.  Others, similar ignorant and uneducated, do not believe.  Why is this?  I do not think that belief in God is simply a matter of deploying the right arguments.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Ingles</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/15/%e2%80%9ctell-me-now-what-are-we-supposed-to-do%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-24272</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Ingles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Sep 2010 14:17:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=21400#comment-24272</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ars Artium - I was echoing William&#039;s characterization of &#039;militant&#039;. I think it fairly applies - and thereby illustrates a problem with his characterization.

Just so I&#039;m clear... are you contending that Pope Benedict would be willing to become an atheist &quot;if only the right argument came along&quot;?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ars Artium &#8211; I was echoing William&#8217;s characterization of &#8216;militant&#8217;. I think it fairly applies &#8211; and thereby illustrates a problem with his characterization.</p>
<p>Just so I&#8217;m clear&#8230; are you contending that Pope Benedict would be willing to become an atheist &#8220;if only the right argument came along&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Ars Artium</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/15/%e2%80%9ctell-me-now-what-are-we-supposed-to-do%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-24259</link>
		<dc:creator>Ars Artium</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Sep 2010 12:44:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=21400#comment-24259</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re:  Ray Ingles post:  Pope Benedict in his earlier writings very clearly accepted the possibility of doubt and proposed two categories - those who believe in spite of the fact that doubt exists and those who doubt or refuse to believe in spite of the fact that it might be true.  His life is an exemplary example of constant fidelity to the demands of reason accompanied by true faith which has its source in a spiritual apprehension (grounded in experience) of the truth of God.  Is this what you mean by dogmatic?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re:  Ray Ingles post:  Pope Benedict in his earlier writings very clearly accepted the possibility of doubt and proposed two categories &#8211; those who believe in spite of the fact that doubt exists and those who doubt or refuse to believe in spite of the fact that it might be true.  His life is an exemplary example of constant fidelity to the demands of reason accompanied by true faith which has its source in a spiritual apprehension (grounded in experience) of the truth of God.  Is this what you mean by dogmatic?</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Ingles</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/15/%e2%80%9ctell-me-now-what-are-we-supposed-to-do%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-24256</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Ingles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Sep 2010 11:43:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=21400#comment-24256</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gary - I find the number of people who can deploy rational arguments in support of their positions in almost any area to be dismayingly small. However, in my experience that fraction is notably higher among atheists. 

Oh, well. The plural of &#039;anecdote&#039; is not &#039;data&#039;...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gary &#8211; I find the number of people who can deploy rational arguments in support of their positions in almost any area to be dismayingly small. However, in my experience that fraction is notably higher among atheists. </p>
<p>Oh, well. The plural of &#8216;anecdote&#8217; is not &#8216;data&#8217;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: astorian</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/15/%e2%80%9ctell-me-now-what-are-we-supposed-to-do%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-24242</link>
		<dc:creator>astorian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Sep 2010 04:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=21400#comment-24242</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The song &quot;Living on a Thin Line&quot; deals with subjects Ray Davies had been writing about for years. The great Kinks concept albums  &quot;The Kinks Are the Village Green Preservation Society&quot; and &quot;Arthur&quot; both dealt with the changes and decline of England in the 20th century.

&quot;Arthur&quot; traced the life of an ordinary Englishman who was born at the tail end of Queen Victoria&#039;s reign (when England really did seem to rule the world), and found himself an old man in the Sixties (when England was a small and not terribly important country).

Arthur, like England, found himself wondering, &quot;Didn&#039;t I once have grand dreams? Didn&#039;t I seem to have an unlimited future? Wasn&#039;t I destined for greatness? How did I end up like this- old, tired, weak and worn out?&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The song &#8220;Living on a Thin Line&#8221; deals with subjects Ray Davies had been writing about for years. The great Kinks concept albums  &#8220;The Kinks Are the Village Green Preservation Society&#8221; and &#8220;Arthur&#8221; both dealt with the changes and decline of England in the 20th century.</p>
<p>&#8220;Arthur&#8221; traced the life of an ordinary Englishman who was born at the tail end of Queen Victoria&#8217;s reign (when England really did seem to rule the world), and found himself an old man in the Sixties (when England was a small and not terribly important country).</p>
<p>Arthur, like England, found himself wondering, &#8220;Didn&#8217;t I once have grand dreams? Didn&#8217;t I seem to have an unlimited future? Wasn&#8217;t I destined for greatness? How did I end up like this- old, tired, weak and worn out?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Ingles</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/15/%e2%80%9ctell-me-now-what-are-we-supposed-to-do%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-24220</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Ingles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Sep 2010 23:23:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=21400#comment-24220</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[William - My definition of &quot;militant atheist&quot; follows the conventional usage of &quot;militant&quot; when applied to other believers - advocating or practicing violence to advance their ideology.

Go over to Google News and do a search on &quot;militant Islamist&quot;, &quot;militant Christian&quot; and then &quot;militant atheist&quot; (include the quotes). For the first two, you&#039;ll find people using rifles, grenades, bombs, knives, etc. To take some examples of &quot;militant Christians&quot;, we have the Army of God (bombing abortion clinics) and the Hutarees (currently facing terrorism charges).

Now look at the Google News results for &quot;militant atheist&quot;. As of this writing, it turns up people like Dawkins, Hitchens, Myers, Grayling - people who make make strongly-worded statements, but who actively, specifically &lt;i&gt;decry&lt;/i&gt; violence.

Like I said, a double standard obtains. In practice, the secondary definition of &#039;militant&#039; meaning &#039;aggressive&#039; or &#039;passionate&#039; is &lt;i&gt;very nearly exclusively&lt;/i&gt; applied to atheists.

Either people use &quot;militant atheist&quot; as a lazy cliché - in which case they should be better writers (might I suggest a few alternatives like &quot;aggressive&quot;, &quot;intransigent&quot;, &quot;close-minded&quot;, &quot;incorrigible&quot;, &quot;bloody-minded&quot;, &quot;vituperative&quot;?) ... or else the word&#039;s used precisely in order to associate nonviolent people with violence, in which case it should be abandoned as a dishonest tactic.

Certainly there are and have been militant atheists - e.g. Stalin and Mao, who specifically targeted religious believers with violence precisely to promote atheism. Lumping Dawkins, Hitchens, and the rest in with &lt;i&gt;them&lt;/i&gt; is like lumping, say, Pope Benedict XVI in with Pope Benedict IX.

Say, consider Pope Benedict XVI - a dogmatic believer who constantly decries atheism, and the very concept of disbelief in God; and won’t be persuaded by any argument for the non-existence of God, and who indeed insists that no such argument &lt;i&gt;could&lt;/i&gt; be right...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>William &#8211; My definition of &#8220;militant atheist&#8221; follows the conventional usage of &#8220;militant&#8221; when applied to other believers &#8211; advocating or practicing violence to advance their ideology.</p>
<p>Go over to Google News and do a search on &#8220;militant Islamist&#8221;, &#8220;militant Christian&#8221; and then &#8220;militant atheist&#8221; (include the quotes). For the first two, you&#8217;ll find people using rifles, grenades, bombs, knives, etc. To take some examples of &#8220;militant Christians&#8221;, we have the Army of God (bombing abortion clinics) and the Hutarees (currently facing terrorism charges).</p>
<p>Now look at the Google News results for &#8220;militant atheist&#8221;. As of this writing, it turns up people like Dawkins, Hitchens, Myers, Grayling &#8211; people who make make strongly-worded statements, but who actively, specifically <i>decry</i> violence.</p>
<p>Like I said, a double standard obtains. In practice, the secondary definition of &#8216;militant&#8217; meaning &#8216;aggressive&#8217; or &#8216;passionate&#8217; is <i>very nearly exclusively</i> applied to atheists.</p>
<p>Either people use &#8220;militant atheist&#8221; as a lazy cliché &#8211; in which case they should be better writers (might I suggest a few alternatives like &#8220;aggressive&#8221;, &#8220;intransigent&#8221;, &#8220;close-minded&#8221;, &#8220;incorrigible&#8221;, &#8220;bloody-minded&#8221;, &#8220;vituperative&#8221;?) &#8230; or else the word&#8217;s used precisely in order to associate nonviolent people with violence, in which case it should be abandoned as a dishonest tactic.</p>
<p>Certainly there are and have been militant atheists &#8211; e.g. Stalin and Mao, who specifically targeted religious believers with violence precisely to promote atheism. Lumping Dawkins, Hitchens, and the rest in with <i>them</i> is like lumping, say, Pope Benedict XVI in with Pope Benedict IX.</p>
<p>Say, consider Pope Benedict XVI &#8211; a dogmatic believer who constantly decries atheism, and the very concept of disbelief in God; and won’t be persuaded by any argument for the non-existence of God, and who indeed insists that no such argument <i>could</i> be right&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Keith Chesterton</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/15/%e2%80%9ctell-me-now-what-are-we-supposed-to-do%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-24199</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Keith Chesterton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Sep 2010 19:47:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=21400#comment-24199</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In my experience, there are four broad types of atheist.  I say &quot;broad&quot; because there is some overlap and some outliers, but the basic categories are:

1.  &quot;Pony atheists,&quot; those who are angry at God because they didn&#039;t get a pony when they asked for one.  Their arguments boil down to &quot;there is no God, and I hate Him.&quot;

2.  People who are really just rebelling against their parents, but haven&#039;t really thought too much about it. 

3.  People who want to do whatever their groins or bellies want to do, and don&#039;t want some pesky &quot;God&quot; telling them what to do, or worse, what &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; to do.

4.  The real, honest-to-goodness, cold-blooded, rational atheists.  These are the folks who can really deploy rational arguments in support of their positions.  

Category Four, in my experience, is vanishingly small.

&quot;Militant&quot; atheists may be found in each of these categories, but (again, in my experience) are fewer in Category Four.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my experience, there are four broad types of atheist.  I say &#8220;broad&#8221; because there is some overlap and some outliers, but the basic categories are:</p>
<p>1.  &#8220;Pony atheists,&#8221; those who are angry at God because they didn&#8217;t get a pony when they asked for one.  Their arguments boil down to &#8220;there is no God, and I hate Him.&#8221;</p>
<p>2.  People who are really just rebelling against their parents, but haven&#8217;t really thought too much about it. </p>
<p>3.  People who want to do whatever their groins or bellies want to do, and don&#8217;t want some pesky &#8220;God&#8221; telling them what to do, or worse, what <i>not</i> to do.</p>
<p>4.  The real, honest-to-goodness, cold-blooded, rational atheists.  These are the folks who can really deploy rational arguments in support of their positions.  </p>
<p>Category Four, in my experience, is vanishingly small.</p>
<p>&#8220;Militant&#8221; atheists may be found in each of these categories, but (again, in my experience) are fewer in Category Four.</p>
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		<title>By: William Doino</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/15/%e2%80%9ctell-me-now-what-are-we-supposed-to-do%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-24194</link>
		<dc:creator>William Doino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Sep 2010 19:06:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=21400#comment-24194</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ray-You raise a fair point; but as I give you my answer, I&#039;d also like to know what your definition of a militant atheist is-- or if you think there can ever be such a thing?

A militant atheist, in my opinion, is a dogmatic unbeliever who constantly decries religion, and the very concept of God; and won&#039;t be persuaded by any argument for the existence of God, even as he/she insists that they, of course, would be wiling to change their minds, and become believers, if only the right argument came along. From a human perspective, its impossible to convert them.

 But with God, all things are possible. (Mathew 19: 26)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ray-You raise a fair point; but as I give you my answer, I&#8217;d also like to know what your definition of a militant atheist is&#8211; or if you think there can ever be such a thing?</p>
<p>A militant atheist, in my opinion, is a dogmatic unbeliever who constantly decries religion, and the very concept of God; and won&#8217;t be persuaded by any argument for the existence of God, even as he/she insists that they, of course, would be wiling to change their minds, and become believers, if only the right argument came along. From a human perspective, its impossible to convert them.</p>
<p> But with God, all things are possible. (Mathew 19: 26)</p>
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