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	<title>Comments on: Joseph Sobran, 1946–2010</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/30/joseph-sobran/</link>
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		<title>By: Joseph Bottum</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/30/joseph-sobran/comment-page-1/#comment-25571</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Bottum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Oct 2010 22:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=22271#comment-25571</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This has gone about as far as it can, and the sad occasion of a man&#039;s death is not the one in which to indulge some of what the commentators want to discuss. I&#039;m closing it to further comment.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This has gone about as far as it can, and the sad occasion of a man&#8217;s death is not the one in which to indulge some of what the commentators want to discuss. I&#8217;m closing it to further comment.</p>
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		<title>By: Benighted Savage</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/30/joseph-sobran/comment-page-1/#comment-25570</link>
		<dc:creator>Benighted Savage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Oct 2010 21:58:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=22271#comment-25570</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, Kamilla, if you&#039;ve found the criticisms of Sobran on this thread unsatisfactory, perhaps you might find William F. Buckley&#039;s _In Search of Antisemitism_ worth a look. 

As for general accounts of the history of anti-semitism, there are quite a few: Walter Laqueur&#039;s _The Changing Face of Antisemitism_ isn&#039;t bad, and Anthony Julius&#039; _Trials of the Diaspora_ should be easy to find. Both will give you an excellent idea as to what anti-semitism is.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Kamilla, if you&#8217;ve found the criticisms of Sobran on this thread unsatisfactory, perhaps you might find William F. Buckley&#8217;s _In Search of Antisemitism_ worth a look. </p>
<p>As for general accounts of the history of anti-semitism, there are quite a few: Walter Laqueur&#8217;s _The Changing Face of Antisemitism_ isn&#8217;t bad, and Anthony Julius&#8217; _Trials of the Diaspora_ should be easy to find. Both will give you an excellent idea as to what anti-semitism is.</p>
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		<title>By: Kamilla</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/30/joseph-sobran/comment-page-1/#comment-25563</link>
		<dc:creator>Kamilla</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Oct 2010 20:04:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=22271#comment-25563</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[More of the same, BS.  I don&#039;t have a dog in this fight.  I&#039;m not terribly familiar with Mr. Sobran&#039;s writings but neither am I quick to concur with the charge of anti-semitism and I do rather like having my questions answered by those who think they have such a slam-dunk case.

Quite frankly, histrionics, guilt by association and slurs against the intelligence of Mr. Sobran&#039;s defenders do not amount to an argument on the part of the accusers.  If the case is as obvious as Mr. Sobran&#039;s judges claim, it should be a simple enough matter to define anti-semitism and lay out under what grounds the charge is falsifiable.

And yet these men are either unable or unwilling to do so.  I won&#039;t judge their intelligence, only their willingness to actually prove their case.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More of the same, BS.  I don&#8217;t have a dog in this fight.  I&#8217;m not terribly familiar with Mr. Sobran&#8217;s writings but neither am I quick to concur with the charge of anti-semitism and I do rather like having my questions answered by those who think they have such a slam-dunk case.</p>
<p>Quite frankly, histrionics, guilt by association and slurs against the intelligence of Mr. Sobran&#8217;s defenders do not amount to an argument on the part of the accusers.  If the case is as obvious as Mr. Sobran&#8217;s judges claim, it should be a simple enough matter to define anti-semitism and lay out under what grounds the charge is falsifiable.</p>
<p>And yet these men are either unable or unwilling to do so.  I won&#8217;t judge their intelligence, only their willingness to actually prove their case.</p>
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		<title>By: David Gray</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/30/joseph-sobran/comment-page-1/#comment-25561</link>
		<dc:creator>David Gray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Oct 2010 19:49:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=22271#comment-25561</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Make that &quot;to a radical degree.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Make that &#8220;to a radical degree.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Payne</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/30/joseph-sobran/comment-page-1/#comment-25560</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Oct 2010 19:47:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=22271#comment-25560</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[At any rate:  I loved Mr. Sobran as a thinker and a writer.  I respect his pro-life fearlessness.  I think his skill as an aphorist is unparalleled in modern political writing.

That is why it is actually hurting me to carry on this argument, and I&#039;m bowing out.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At any rate:  I loved Mr. Sobran as a thinker and a writer.  I respect his pro-life fearlessness.  I think his skill as an aphorist is unparalleled in modern political writing.</p>
<p>That is why it is actually hurting me to carry on this argument, and I&#8217;m bowing out.</p>
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		<title>By: David Gray</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/30/joseph-sobran/comment-page-1/#comment-25559</link>
		<dc:creator>David Gray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Oct 2010 19:47:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=22271#comment-25559</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Benighted,

You reference the 1999 essay and yet butcher the quote.  Why?  Sobran made two statements with the word &quot;bolshevik&quot; in it.  The first:

&quot;Christians knew that Communism — often called “Jewish Bolshevism” — would bring awful persecution with the ultimate goal of the annihilation of Christianity.&quot;

And it certainly was called that often.

Next:

&quot;Further, might the Talmudic imprecations against Christ and Christians have helped form the Bolshevik Jews’ anti-Christian animus? &quot;

Jews were certainly very disproportionately present among the Bolsheviks, too a radical degree.  Did Bolsheviks who were Jews have an anti-Christian animus?  Could inherited traditions which were anti-Christian have informed this animus?

And why did you find it necessary to either butcher or manufacture a quote?

PS  Use your name like a man.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Benighted,</p>
<p>You reference the 1999 essay and yet butcher the quote.  Why?  Sobran made two statements with the word &#8220;bolshevik&#8221; in it.  The first:</p>
<p>&#8220;Christians knew that Communism — often called “Jewish Bolshevism” — would bring awful persecution with the ultimate goal of the annihilation of Christianity.&#8221;</p>
<p>And it certainly was called that often.</p>
<p>Next:</p>
<p>&#8220;Further, might the Talmudic imprecations against Christ and Christians have helped form the Bolshevik Jews’ anti-Christian animus? &#8221;</p>
<p>Jews were certainly very disproportionately present among the Bolsheviks, too a radical degree.  Did Bolsheviks who were Jews have an anti-Christian animus?  Could inherited traditions which were anti-Christian have informed this animus?</p>
<p>And why did you find it necessary to either butcher or manufacture a quote?</p>
<p>PS  Use your name like a man.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Payne</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/30/joseph-sobran/comment-page-1/#comment-25558</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Oct 2010 19:45:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=22271#comment-25558</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The leader of Iran is on record as saying he wants to wipe Israel off the map and destroy all the Jews in the world.  Could we at least agree that he is anti-semitic?  Or is the term still too vague for that conclusion?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The leader of Iran is on record as saying he wants to wipe Israel off the map and destroy all the Jews in the world.  Could we at least agree that he is anti-semitic?  Or is the term still too vague for that conclusion?</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Payne</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/30/joseph-sobran/comment-page-1/#comment-25556</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Oct 2010 19:39:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=22271#comment-25556</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear Benighted Savage:  (It&#039;s funny to type that out as a name):  Mr. Sobran did not refer to Jews as &quot;Christ-killers.&quot;  His style was to say, &quot;Now, this is what an anti-semite would say.&quot;  Distancing himself, you understand.  However, his point in his essay was that he did not think &quot;Christ-killer&quot; was a historical slur that had actually been cast upon the Jews.  (They, evidently, made it up as part of their Master Plan.)

Dear Kamilla:  I thought I did define anti-semitism, up above:  at the very least we would agree that thinking and writing of the Jews as a whole as a harmful influence in the world is anti-semitic.

For example, I think of the Nazis as a whole as a harmful influence in world history.  That&#039;s because I&#039;m anti-Nazi.  Same with Communism.  I&#039;m anti-Communist.

So c&#039;mon, folks, ante up.  If you think of the Jews as a whole in world history as a bad influence, then say it loud and proud.  But the rest of us will still call you anti-semitic.  The label goes with the comments.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Benighted Savage:  (It&#8217;s funny to type that out as a name):  Mr. Sobran did not refer to Jews as &#8220;Christ-killers.&#8221;  His style was to say, &#8220;Now, this is what an anti-semite would say.&#8221;  Distancing himself, you understand.  However, his point in his essay was that he did not think &#8220;Christ-killer&#8221; was a historical slur that had actually been cast upon the Jews.  (They, evidently, made it up as part of their Master Plan.)</p>
<p>Dear Kamilla:  I thought I did define anti-semitism, up above:  at the very least we would agree that thinking and writing of the Jews as a whole as a harmful influence in the world is anti-semitic.</p>
<p>For example, I think of the Nazis as a whole as a harmful influence in world history.  That&#8217;s because I&#8217;m anti-Nazi.  Same with Communism.  I&#8217;m anti-Communist.</p>
<p>So c&#8217;mon, folks, ante up.  If you think of the Jews as a whole in world history as a bad influence, then say it loud and proud.  But the rest of us will still call you anti-semitic.  The label goes with the comments.</p>
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		<title>By: Francesca</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/30/joseph-sobran/comment-page-1/#comment-25551</link>
		<dc:creator>Francesca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Oct 2010 18:35:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=22271#comment-25551</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with Art Deco.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Art Deco.</p>
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		<title>By: Benighted Savage</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/09/30/joseph-sobran/comment-page-1/#comment-25548</link>
		<dc:creator>Benighted Savage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Oct 2010 18:10:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=22271#comment-25548</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think that Mr. Payne&#039;s 2 Oct 2010 7:34 p.m. post is quite convincing, Kamilla. It would have been better if Mr. Payne had given source citations for his quotes, but since none of Sobran&#039;s defenders are criticizing him for mis-attribution I&#039;ll assume they are legitimate.

As for the quotes: Sobran&#039;s not-so-subtle allusion to &quot;the Jews&quot; as Christ-killers, his use of the State of Israel as a stalking horse for his repition of standard anti-semitic slurs (&quot;the Jewish state has behaved... deceitfully, parasitically, and cruelly.” ), and his calling Marxism and Freudianism &quot;Jewish ideologies&quot; would all constitute a prima facie case for considering him as an anti-semite. 

There&#039;s a lot more evidence that supports this from Sobran&#039;s pen; c.f. his 1999 essay &quot;The Church and Jewish Ideology,&quot; in which he repeats as true standard anti-semitic nonsense like the falsehood that communism is &quot;Jewish bolshevism&quot; and the patently silly notion that we poor gentiles sit in &quot;overwhelming&quot; fear (FEAR, I tells ya!) of &quot;Jewish power.&quot; Once again, we see standard anti-semitic tropes: the jew as an external enemy within society, the jew as the personification of threats to society. What could be clearer?

C&#039;mon, Kamilla; does someone have to draw you a map to show you where Sobran was coming from the last 20+ years? Do we have to bring up his connection with David Irving and with the Institute for Historical Review? Mr. Payne is correct, and anyone with the slightest familiarity with the history of anti-semitism would have no trouble identifying Sobran&#039;s later actions and writings as anti-semitic.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that Mr. Payne&#8217;s 2 Oct 2010 7:34 p.m. post is quite convincing, Kamilla. It would have been better if Mr. Payne had given source citations for his quotes, but since none of Sobran&#8217;s defenders are criticizing him for mis-attribution I&#8217;ll assume they are legitimate.</p>
<p>As for the quotes: Sobran&#8217;s not-so-subtle allusion to &#8220;the Jews&#8221; as Christ-killers, his use of the State of Israel as a stalking horse for his repition of standard anti-semitic slurs (&#8220;the Jewish state has behaved&#8230; deceitfully, parasitically, and cruelly.” ), and his calling Marxism and Freudianism &#8220;Jewish ideologies&#8221; would all constitute a prima facie case for considering him as an anti-semite. </p>
<p>There&#8217;s a lot more evidence that supports this from Sobran&#8217;s pen; c.f. his 1999 essay &#8220;The Church and Jewish Ideology,&#8221; in which he repeats as true standard anti-semitic nonsense like the falsehood that communism is &#8220;Jewish bolshevism&#8221; and the patently silly notion that we poor gentiles sit in &#8220;overwhelming&#8221; fear (FEAR, I tells ya!) of &#8220;Jewish power.&#8221; Once again, we see standard anti-semitic tropes: the jew as an external enemy within society, the jew as the personification of threats to society. What could be clearer?</p>
<p>C&#8217;mon, Kamilla; does someone have to draw you a map to show you where Sobran was coming from the last 20+ years? Do we have to bring up his connection with David Irving and with the Institute for Historical Review? Mr. Payne is correct, and anyone with the slightest familiarity with the history of anti-semitism would have no trouble identifying Sobran&#8217;s later actions and writings as anti-semitic.</p>
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