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	<title>Comments on: Can Christians Get the Visual Arts Out of the Toilet?</title>
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		<title>By: Titus Eichenberger</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/01/can-christians-get-the-visual-arts-our-of-the-toilet/comment-page-1/#comment-28550</link>
		<dc:creator>Titus Eichenberger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Nov 2010 00:01:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=23718#comment-28550</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I dont want to comment on the content of the discussion of the father and the son, but what we  actually see (the two man, the table with pots and cups and oranges and the bottle on it) is a perfect modern version of an old dutch master. The scenary in it&#039;s historic context causes questions about identity and this actually is the topic they are discussing. The video is not as simple as it seems. 

One important aspect of contemporary art is to sharpen perception about what is happening around us, to understand who we are, what is forming our awareness. In this way contemporary artforms can be important tools we should not ignore. Where an artpeace will lead us depends on the motivation behind and not on the artform.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I dont want to comment on the content of the discussion of the father and the son, but what we  actually see (the two man, the table with pots and cups and oranges and the bottle on it) is a perfect modern version of an old dutch master. The scenary in it&#8217;s historic context causes questions about identity and this actually is the topic they are discussing. The video is not as simple as it seems. </p>
<p>One important aspect of contemporary art is to sharpen perception about what is happening around us, to understand who we are, what is forming our awareness. In this way contemporary artforms can be important tools we should not ignore. Where an artpeace will lead us depends on the motivation behind and not on the artform.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt from NE</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/01/can-christians-get-the-visual-arts-our-of-the-toilet/comment-page-1/#comment-28307</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt from NE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Nov 2010 17:26:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=23718#comment-28307</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[While I take Joe&#039;s (and Tom Wolfe&#039;s) point about certain strains of modern art, the despairing tone is unwarranted. To claim that modern art was &quot;in the toilet&quot; might have been fair in the 80&#039;s or 90&#039;s, when the NEA was in grip of the idea that art=provocation. But there&#039;s a strong movement back to beauty today, both in the visual arts and in culture in general (more and more scholars in literary studies, my field, are talking about beauty now). Makoto Fujimura and Jacob Collins are leading the charge in visual arts with organizations like the International Arts Movement, the Hudson River Fellowship, and the Grand Central Academy of Art. Other artists like Gerhard Richter, Tim Lowly, and Ed Knippers are producing work that avoids theory-laden provocation and creates real beauty. So there&#039;s just no reason to be pessimistic: the very revival you&#039;re calling for has happened and is happening! 

I respond like this because I&#039;m bothered by the sense that many Christians are all too ready to decry the state of the contemporary art world without knowledge of the many good things that are going on. Yes, stuff like this beer-brewing guy is stupid. (What&#039;s wrong with brewing good beer and selling it for people to drink?) But there&#039;s going to be art made that you dislike in any period. There was no golden age. It&#039;s long past time for Christians to stop acting like the age we live in is uniquely debauched and bereft of good art. Give up the declinist rhetoric (leave it in the 90&#039;s with the culture wars), and embrace the good art that&#039;s being made. There was some even in the 80&#039;s and 90&#039;s, but Christian culture was too busy complaining to notice. Now that there&#039;s even more, let&#039;s not make the same mistake.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I take Joe&#8217;s (and Tom Wolfe&#8217;s) point about certain strains of modern art, the despairing tone is unwarranted. To claim that modern art was &#8220;in the toilet&#8221; might have been fair in the 80&#8242;s or 90&#8242;s, when the NEA was in grip of the idea that art=provocation. But there&#8217;s a strong movement back to beauty today, both in the visual arts and in culture in general (more and more scholars in literary studies, my field, are talking about beauty now). Makoto Fujimura and Jacob Collins are leading the charge in visual arts with organizations like the International Arts Movement, the Hudson River Fellowship, and the Grand Central Academy of Art. Other artists like Gerhard Richter, Tim Lowly, and Ed Knippers are producing work that avoids theory-laden provocation and creates real beauty. So there&#8217;s just no reason to be pessimistic: the very revival you&#8217;re calling for has happened and is happening! </p>
<p>I respond like this because I&#8217;m bothered by the sense that many Christians are all too ready to decry the state of the contemporary art world without knowledge of the many good things that are going on. Yes, stuff like this beer-brewing guy is stupid. (What&#8217;s wrong with brewing good beer and selling it for people to drink?) But there&#8217;s going to be art made that you dislike in any period. There was no golden age. It&#8217;s long past time for Christians to stop acting like the age we live in is uniquely debauched and bereft of good art. Give up the declinist rhetoric (leave it in the 90&#8242;s with the culture wars), and embrace the good art that&#8217;s being made. There was some even in the 80&#8242;s and 90&#8242;s, but Christian culture was too busy complaining to notice. Now that there&#8217;s even more, let&#8217;s not make the same mistake.</p>
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		<title>By: Beth Impson</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/01/can-christians-get-the-visual-arts-our-of-the-toilet/comment-page-1/#comment-28010</link>
		<dc:creator>Beth Impson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Nov 2010 13:48:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=23718#comment-28010</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John Gardner&#039;s _On Moral Fiction_ is an excellent treatise on art which I highly recommend.  It&#039;s being reviewed in the upcoming issue of _The Christendom Review_:  .]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Gardner&#8217;s _On Moral Fiction_ is an excellent treatise on art which I highly recommend.  It&#8217;s being reviewed in the upcoming issue of _The Christendom Review_:  .</p>
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		<title>By: Sand in the Gears &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Redeeming art</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/01/can-christians-get-the-visual-arts-our-of-the-toilet/comment-page-1/#comment-27997</link>
		<dc:creator>Sand in the Gears &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Redeeming art</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Nov 2010 03:39:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=23718#comment-27997</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] the rest here.   Share and [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the rest here.   Share and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/01/can-christians-get-the-visual-arts-our-of-the-toilet/comment-page-1/#comment-27941</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Nov 2010 00:24:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=23718#comment-27941</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[to pentamom,

my ex-girlfriend -- a wonderful young lady -- used the same arguments as you when discussing this question.  is your real name kate? :)  incidentally, she is not &quot;ex&quot; because of this disagreement.

thanks for your thoughts.  but why is it so hard to believe that defining &quot;art&quot; is infinitely harder than defining &quot;pencil?&quot;  that some things are more easily defined than others is simply obvious.   

i think it is very plausible that no culture has ever had a &quot;fixed meaning&quot; to the word &quot;art.&quot;  and as i used to tell kate, i couldn&#039;t care less if words are useful, but only that questions be honest, terms be clear, premises be true, and arguments be valid.  

so the honest question &quot;what is art/non-art?&quot; is a fantastic question.  i&#039;d personally like to know the answer to this question, especially if my toddler son ever asks it.

why couldn&#039;t &quot;christ in the piss jar&quot; be art?  i happen to think it is a brilliant description of what actually happened on good friday....  why couldn&#039;t an urinal be art?  it was probably designed on autocad by a thoughtful artist who fused form and function....  on what basis could i deny that pornography is photography and therefore art?  what about a man wearing facial hair?  why is that not art?  and photographs of aborted remains coming out of yale college?  on what basis could i strip the status of &quot;art&quot; from such obscenity?

if we follow truth where it leads, i think reasonable people could agree that all attempts to draw the line between art/non-art are purely arbitrary.  if this conclusion is true, it would be true always and everywhere.

but what of a satisfactory answer to our question?  are we left with no answer?  well, it is at least plausible that everything -- the entire created order -- is art because it proceeds from God who is the maker of all things, seen and unseen.  to my mind, this answer is the only answer that avoids arbitrariness.  so why not believe it?  

some final thoughts:  (1) &quot;what is art/non-art&quot; has never been an easy question to answer for anyone in any age or culture who has bothered trying to answer it.  (2)  that the answer was easy was simply &quot;taken for granted.&quot;  (3) philosophy and aesthetics are necessarily ahistorical -- so is 2+2=4.  (4) the question is not &quot;what is the difference between the mona lisa and a toilet seat?&quot; but &quot;why is a toilet seat not art?&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>to pentamom,</p>
<p>my ex-girlfriend &#8212; a wonderful young lady &#8212; used the same arguments as you when discussing this question.  is your real name kate? :)  incidentally, she is not &#8220;ex&#8221; because of this disagreement.</p>
<p>thanks for your thoughts.  but why is it so hard to believe that defining &#8220;art&#8221; is infinitely harder than defining &#8220;pencil?&#8221;  that some things are more easily defined than others is simply obvious.   </p>
<p>i think it is very plausible that no culture has ever had a &#8220;fixed meaning&#8221; to the word &#8220;art.&#8221;  and as i used to tell kate, i couldn&#8217;t care less if words are useful, but only that questions be honest, terms be clear, premises be true, and arguments be valid.  </p>
<p>so the honest question &#8220;what is art/non-art?&#8221; is a fantastic question.  i&#8217;d personally like to know the answer to this question, especially if my toddler son ever asks it.</p>
<p>why couldn&#8217;t &#8220;christ in the piss jar&#8221; be art?  i happen to think it is a brilliant description of what actually happened on good friday&#8230;.  why couldn&#8217;t an urinal be art?  it was probably designed on autocad by a thoughtful artist who fused form and function&#8230;.  on what basis could i deny that pornography is photography and therefore art?  what about a man wearing facial hair?  why is that not art?  and photographs of aborted remains coming out of yale college?  on what basis could i strip the status of &#8220;art&#8221; from such obscenity?</p>
<p>if we follow truth where it leads, i think reasonable people could agree that all attempts to draw the line between art/non-art are purely arbitrary.  if this conclusion is true, it would be true always and everywhere.</p>
<p>but what of a satisfactory answer to our question?  are we left with no answer?  well, it is at least plausible that everything &#8212; the entire created order &#8212; is art because it proceeds from God who is the maker of all things, seen and unseen.  to my mind, this answer is the only answer that avoids arbitrariness.  so why not believe it?  </p>
<p>some final thoughts:  (1) &#8220;what is art/non-art&#8221; has never been an easy question to answer for anyone in any age or culture who has bothered trying to answer it.  (2)  that the answer was easy was simply &#8220;taken for granted.&#8221;  (3) philosophy and aesthetics are necessarily ahistorical &#8212; so is 2+2=4.  (4) the question is not &#8220;what is the difference between the mona lisa and a toilet seat?&#8221; but &#8220;why is a toilet seat not art?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: "Explain to me in simple terms &#8230;" &#124; Crowhill Weblog</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/01/can-christians-get-the-visual-arts-our-of-the-toilet/comment-page-1/#comment-27882</link>
		<dc:creator>"Explain to me in simple terms &#8230;" &#124; Crowhill Weblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Nov 2010 12:49:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=23718#comment-27882</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Pentamom forwarded me a funny link about some artsy guy trying to explain to his father how his home brewing is &quot;art.&quot; It&#8217;s an article with a rather long video attached. See Can Christians Get the Visual Arts Out of the Toilet? [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Pentamom forwarded me a funny link about some artsy guy trying to explain to his father how his home brewing is &#8220;art.&#8221; It&#8217;s an article with a rather long video attached. See Can Christians Get the Visual Arts Out of the Toilet? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: T.B.Root</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/01/can-christians-get-the-visual-arts-our-of-the-toilet/comment-page-1/#comment-27878</link>
		<dc:creator>T.B.Root</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Nov 2010 12:14:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=23718#comment-27878</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The father in this tedious little video said that a Dutch master still-life would have just a couple of &quot;layers&quot; whereas his son&#039;s beer project has many. Sigh. I&#039;ll take two good reasons to ten stupid ones any day.
 
Will Christian artists save the arts? Not without commissions they won&#039;t. From Michelangelo to Bach to Le Corbusier, the great religious art that we cherish was done on commission. We all have a part to play. Pony up!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The father in this tedious little video said that a Dutch master still-life would have just a couple of &#8220;layers&#8221; whereas his son&#8217;s beer project has many. Sigh. I&#8217;ll take two good reasons to ten stupid ones any day.</p>
<p>Will Christian artists save the arts? Not without commissions they won&#8217;t. From Michelangelo to Bach to Le Corbusier, the great religious art that we cherish was done on commission. We all have a part to play. Pony up!</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/01/can-christians-get-the-visual-arts-our-of-the-toilet/comment-page-1/#comment-27862</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Nov 2010 04:11:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=23718#comment-27862</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wikipedia&#039;s entry on &quot;Fountain&quot; is very interesting.  Apparently, the original has been lost: probably discarded as trash after it was submitted to a gallery in 1917.

Artist-approved reproductions have fetched over $1 million and many are displayed in art museums around the world.

Even weirder is the phenomenon of &quot;performance artists&quot; going to art museums in order to urinate into their replicas.  Any act that is pretentious and juvenile at the same time can count as art I suppose.  Getting arrested for disorderly conduct or indecent exposure just adds to how utterly subversive and therefore artistic one&#039;s acts are.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wikipedia&#8217;s entry on &#8220;Fountain&#8221; is very interesting.  Apparently, the original has been lost: probably discarded as trash after it was submitted to a gallery in 1917.</p>
<p>Artist-approved reproductions have fetched over $1 million and many are displayed in art museums around the world.</p>
<p>Even weirder is the phenomenon of &#8220;performance artists&#8221; going to art museums in order to urinate into their replicas.  Any act that is pretentious and juvenile at the same time can count as art I suppose.  Getting arrested for disorderly conduct or indecent exposure just adds to how utterly subversive and therefore artistic one&#8217;s acts are.</p>
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		<title>By: pentamom</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/01/can-christians-get-the-visual-arts-our-of-the-toilet/comment-page-1/#comment-27856</link>
		<dc:creator>pentamom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Nov 2010 02:11:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=23718#comment-27856</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh, I don&#039;t have a problem with performance art per se, it&#039;s the pretentiousness and vacuousness of this particular example of it. There is nothing *to* this bit of &quot;performance art&quot; except that Coenen says that&#039;s what it is. Otherwise, it&#039;s a guy brewing some beer, telling himself that he&#039;s smarter than the average European, and whining that his Dad doesn&#039;t try to understand him properly -- but since he says it&#039;s art, all of that is somehow now a &quot;work of art.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I don&#8217;t have a problem with performance art per se, it&#8217;s the pretentiousness and vacuousness of this particular example of it. There is nothing *to* this bit of &#8220;performance art&#8221; except that Coenen says that&#8217;s what it is. Otherwise, it&#8217;s a guy brewing some beer, telling himself that he&#8217;s smarter than the average European, and whining that his Dad doesn&#8217;t try to understand him properly &#8212; but since he says it&#8217;s art, all of that is somehow now a &#8220;work of art.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/01/can-christians-get-the-visual-arts-our-of-the-toilet/comment-page-1/#comment-27845</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Nov 2010 22:53:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=23718#comment-27845</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[At the risk of sounding pretentious or irreverent, I would say that Christians have been practicing &quot;performance art&quot; since the beginning of the Church, in the way that they live their lives by witnessing to Christ. St. Francis stands out as a particularly fine example.

Of course, that idea stretches the concept of art perhaps to well past the breaking point: if art is simply &quot;everything an artist does&quot; then the word &quot;art&quot; hardly means anything at all. It ends up as a twisted knot of self-reference and irony. Perhaps we need a renaissance in the sense of returning to the achievements of the ancients.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At the risk of sounding pretentious or irreverent, I would say that Christians have been practicing &#8220;performance art&#8221; since the beginning of the Church, in the way that they live their lives by witnessing to Christ. St. Francis stands out as a particularly fine example.</p>
<p>Of course, that idea stretches the concept of art perhaps to well past the breaking point: if art is simply &#8220;everything an artist does&#8221; then the word &#8220;art&#8221; hardly means anything at all. It ends up as a twisted knot of self-reference and irony. Perhaps we need a renaissance in the sense of returning to the achievements of the ancients.</p>
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