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	<title>Comments on: The Nature of Atheism, Christianity, and the State (Part 7)</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/07/the-nature-of-atheism-christianity-and-the-state-part-7/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Dale Coulter</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/07/the-nature-of-atheism-christianity-and-the-state-part-7/comment-page-1/#comment-28287</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale Coulter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Nov 2010 22:57:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=24132#comment-28287</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This turn toward the historical that Mr. Brown has taken is leading to such sweeping generalizations about history as to be of little to no use whatsoever. 

For example, to claim that Theodosius set the tone for the next thousand years is to fail to see how the entire western half of the empire crumbled under the equivalent of immigration into those regions by tribes like the Vandals, the Goths, and the Lombards. There was no political stability on an empire level in the west until Charlemagne, and even here it was only within select areas. 

One had a relatively stable Visigoth kingdom in the Iberian peninsula, for example, where, interestingly an Arian form of Christianity was defeated through a series of local councils that ultimately brought the king on board. But this did not happen until the 500s. This Visigoth kingdom was brought down first by Justinian&#039;s armies and then finally by the Muslim take over of the Iberian peninsula in the 700s.

Too little of the massive historical shifts are even being taken into consideration here. The only empire Theodosius would have impacted directly (in terms of political continuity) would have been the Byzantine empire, and this is because the Theodosian law codes were taken up and incorporated into Justinian&#039;s code. 

I see little value in such generalizations for either side. It would be better to return to the metaphysical issues, or even simply the moral and philosophical frameworks that each side might bring to bear on they modern nation state.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This turn toward the historical that Mr. Brown has taken is leading to such sweeping generalizations about history as to be of little to no use whatsoever. </p>
<p>For example, to claim that Theodosius set the tone for the next thousand years is to fail to see how the entire western half of the empire crumbled under the equivalent of immigration into those regions by tribes like the Vandals, the Goths, and the Lombards. There was no political stability on an empire level in the west until Charlemagne, and even here it was only within select areas. </p>
<p>One had a relatively stable Visigoth kingdom in the Iberian peninsula, for example, where, interestingly an Arian form of Christianity was defeated through a series of local councils that ultimately brought the king on board. But this did not happen until the 500s. This Visigoth kingdom was brought down first by Justinian&#8217;s armies and then finally by the Muslim take over of the Iberian peninsula in the 700s.</p>
<p>Too little of the massive historical shifts are even being taken into consideration here. The only empire Theodosius would have impacted directly (in terms of political continuity) would have been the Byzantine empire, and this is because the Theodosian law codes were taken up and incorporated into Justinian&#8217;s code. </p>
<p>I see little value in such generalizations for either side. It would be better to return to the metaphysical issues, or even simply the moral and philosophical frameworks that each side might bring to bear on they modern nation state.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/07/the-nature-of-atheism-christianity-and-the-state-part-7/comment-page-1/#comment-28286</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Nov 2010 22:47:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=24132#comment-28286</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Why don&#039;t you guys just stop. This is a pointless argumentative exercise.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why don&#8217;t you guys just stop. This is a pointless argumentative exercise.</p>
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		<title>By: Debate: Constantine and Theodosius &#124;</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/07/the-nature-of-atheism-christianity-and-the-state-part-7/comment-page-1/#comment-28275</link>
		<dc:creator>Debate: Constantine and Theodosius &#124;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Nov 2010 18:42:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=24132#comment-28275</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Constantine and Theodosius  Posted on November 7, 2010 by Barrett Brown    Joe Carter has now responded to my own opening argument, and I reproduce that response below. As we are now entering the phase of the net-based [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Constantine and Theodosius  Posted on November 7, 2010 by Barrett Brown    Joe Carter has now responded to my own opening argument, and I reproduce that response below. As we are now entering the phase of the net-based [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dustin</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/07/the-nature-of-atheism-christianity-and-the-state-part-7/comment-page-1/#comment-28267</link>
		<dc:creator>Dustin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Nov 2010 14:49:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=24132#comment-28267</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The two sides here are not playing by the same rules. I wish the debate stayed focused on the metaphysical rather than shifting to historical disagreements, but Mr. Brown doesn&#039;t seem interested in that and Mr. Carter has conceded the nature of the discussion. But back to the issue of rules... Even if Mr. Carter was debating someone willing to entertain the metaphysical debate, they would be having vastly different discussions. Mr. Carter&#039;s argument is in the religious-philosophical paradigm while a modern atheist&#039;s is in the scientific-philosophical paradigm. These two, as I see them, are currently incompatible because they have so many conflicting assumptions about the world. In the former, it may be true that one cannot have a coherent worldview without some non-dependent entity. But in the latter, perhaps the most consistent worldview of all is one where we fundamentally can&#039;t wrap our minds around a coherent understanding of the universe. After all, it is naive and / or arrogant, from that perspective, to imply that such a young and flawed species should be capable of comprehending the the deepest aspects of the world. Thus, in a metaphysical debate (which seems destined to be deferred to another day), we must discuss assumptions and definitions before conclusions.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The two sides here are not playing by the same rules. I wish the debate stayed focused on the metaphysical rather than shifting to historical disagreements, but Mr. Brown doesn&#8217;t seem interested in that and Mr. Carter has conceded the nature of the discussion. But back to the issue of rules&#8230; Even if Mr. Carter was debating someone willing to entertain the metaphysical debate, they would be having vastly different discussions. Mr. Carter&#8217;s argument is in the religious-philosophical paradigm while a modern atheist&#8217;s is in the scientific-philosophical paradigm. These two, as I see them, are currently incompatible because they have so many conflicting assumptions about the world. In the former, it may be true that one cannot have a coherent worldview without some non-dependent entity. But in the latter, perhaps the most consistent worldview of all is one where we fundamentally can&#8217;t wrap our minds around a coherent understanding of the universe. After all, it is naive and / or arrogant, from that perspective, to imply that such a young and flawed species should be capable of comprehending the the deepest aspects of the world. Thus, in a metaphysical debate (which seems destined to be deferred to another day), we must discuss assumptions and definitions before conclusions.</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention The Nature of Atheism, Christianity, and the State (Part 7) » First Thoughts &#124; A First Things Blog -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/07/the-nature-of-atheism-christianity-and-the-state-part-7/comment-page-1/#comment-28252</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention The Nature of Atheism, Christianity, and the State (Part 7) » First Thoughts &#124; A First Things Blog -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Nov 2010 07:29:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=24132#comment-28252</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by AllThingsJesus and Disaster Gamer, Jen Barns. Jen Barns said: The Nature of Atheism, Christianity, and the State (Part 7): The most that can be assumed is that had Theodosius... http://bit.ly/bkCbul [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by AllThingsJesus and Disaster Gamer, Jen Barns. Jen Barns said: The Nature of Atheism, Christianity, and the State (Part 7): The most that can be assumed is that had Theodosius&#8230; <a href="http://bit.ly/bkCbul" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/bkCbul</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Nature of Atheism, Christianity, and the State (Part 7) &#8211; First Things (blog)</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/07/the-nature-of-atheism-christianity-and-the-state-part-7/comment-page-1/#comment-28250</link>
		<dc:creator>The Nature of Atheism, Christianity, and the State (Part 7) &#8211; First Things (blog)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Nov 2010 06:33:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=24132#comment-28250</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] The Nature of Atheism, Christianity, and the State (Part 7)First Things (blog)After he chose the subject (The Nature of Atheism, Christianity, and the State) and the format (three posts each with additional follow-ups), I suggested he &#8230;and more&#160;&#187; [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Nature of Atheism, Christianity, and the State (Part 7)First Things (blog)After he chose the subject (The Nature of Atheism, Christianity, and the State) and the format (three posts each with additional follow-ups), I suggested he &#8230;and more&nbsp;&raquo; [...]</p>
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