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	<title>Comments on: The Would-Be Church</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/22/the-would-be-church/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/22/the-would-be-church/comment-page-1/#comment-29158</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Nov 2010 14:15:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=24775#comment-29158</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;like kicking a cat into the road but waiting till the bus passes rather than kicking it under it.
&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;m not sure whether you are describing someone else&#039;s view or your own, but that is a rather weak analogy.

Kicking a cat would be a demonstration of sadistic and psychopathic tendencies.  Such a person can be presumed to be a physical danger to others which is why we hold cruelty to animals in such disregard (it wasn&#039;t always that way, mind you).  Sex outside of marriage is -- let&#039;s face it -- a demonstration of a tendency that a sizable chunk of humans of every religion have.  It may demonstrate a lack of restraint or willpower but that&#039;s a far cry from sadism.

Second, HIV is a contagious disease so the analogy fails because infecting one person is indirectly infecting potentially many, many more people.  Preventing the infection of someone is therefore an unqualified good and a demonstration of genuine moral responsibility.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>like kicking a cat into the road but waiting till the bus passes rather than kicking it under it.<br />
</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure whether you are describing someone else&#8217;s view or your own, but that is a rather weak analogy.</p>
<p>Kicking a cat would be a demonstration of sadistic and psychopathic tendencies.  Such a person can be presumed to be a physical danger to others which is why we hold cruelty to animals in such disregard (it wasn&#8217;t always that way, mind you).  Sex outside of marriage is &#8212; let&#8217;s face it &#8212; a demonstration of a tendency that a sizable chunk of humans of every religion have.  It may demonstrate a lack of restraint or willpower but that&#8217;s a far cry from sadism.</p>
<p>Second, HIV is a contagious disease so the analogy fails because infecting one person is indirectly infecting potentially many, many more people.  Preventing the infection of someone is therefore an unqualified good and a demonstration of genuine moral responsibility.</p>
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		<title>By: Tuesday Highlights &#124; Pseudo-Polymath</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/22/the-would-be-church/comment-page-1/#comment-29155</link>
		<dc:creator>Tuesday Highlights &#124; Pseudo-Polymath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Nov 2010 14:07:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=24775#comment-29155</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Talking about Benedict and the condom kerfuffle. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Talking about Benedict and the condom kerfuffle. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Stones Cry Out - If they keep silent&#8230; &#187; Things Heard: e148v2</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/22/the-would-be-church/comment-page-1/#comment-29154</link>
		<dc:creator>Stones Cry Out - If they keep silent&#8230; &#187; Things Heard: e148v2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Nov 2010 14:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=24775#comment-29154</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Talking about Benedict and the condom kerfuffle. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Talking about Benedict and the condom kerfuffle. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Name: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/22/the-would-be-church/comment-page-1/#comment-29137</link>
		<dc:creator>Name: Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Nov 2010 07:33:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=24775#comment-29137</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fr John&#039;s seeing this condom use as not aggravating an already gravely immoral situation - therefore merely a prevention of further disorder ; bearing no laudible credit whatsoever...a neutralising of aggravation is not direct moral agency - like kicking a cat into the road but waiting till the bus passes rather than kicking it under it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fr John&#8217;s seeing this condom use as not aggravating an already gravely immoral situation &#8211; therefore merely a prevention of further disorder ; bearing no laudible credit whatsoever&#8230;a neutralising of aggravation is not direct moral agency &#8211; like kicking a cat into the road but waiting till the bus passes rather than kicking it under it.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/22/the-would-be-church/comment-page-1/#comment-29124</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Nov 2010 02:54:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=24775#comment-29124</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Surely anybody can figure out that the number of AIDS-infected people who take Catholic teaching seriously enough to avoid using condoms, but not seriously enough to avoid sex with uninfected partners, has got to be pretty close to nil.&lt;/i&gt;

This is a fallacy.  The problem of HIV in many countries has reached the point where it has become an epidemic and where government has to assume a public health role to stop the spread of infection.  This includes things like distributing condoms for free to people who are expected to have lots of promiscuous sex in order to reduce rates of infection.

In any given country with a Catholic presence, the Church forms a powerful lobby against precisely these kinds of initiatives.  So the question is not one of autonomous individuals deciding things for themselves.  It is rather a question of what some elected officials, health workers and NGOs would like to do but cannot in some countries due to lobbying by the Catholic church.

The Philippines provides a useful example (HIV infection rates are still mercifully low there, though).  It is a heavily Catholic country but also one where prostitution is out in the open and pre-marital sex is becoming very common.  Unfortunately, both of these are far more common than condom usage is and this is having very detrimental effects on society.  The public by and large supports the idea of government-subsidized contraceptives despite being religious Catholics but the church actively lobbies elected officials to stall any move toward this.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Surely anybody can figure out that the number of AIDS-infected people who take Catholic teaching seriously enough to avoid using condoms, but not seriously enough to avoid sex with uninfected partners, has got to be pretty close to nil.</i></p>
<p>This is a fallacy.  The problem of HIV in many countries has reached the point where it has become an epidemic and where government has to assume a public health role to stop the spread of infection.  This includes things like distributing condoms for free to people who are expected to have lots of promiscuous sex in order to reduce rates of infection.</p>
<p>In any given country with a Catholic presence, the Church forms a powerful lobby against precisely these kinds of initiatives.  So the question is not one of autonomous individuals deciding things for themselves.  It is rather a question of what some elected officials, health workers and NGOs would like to do but cannot in some countries due to lobbying by the Catholic church.</p>
<p>The Philippines provides a useful example (HIV infection rates are still mercifully low there, though).  It is a heavily Catholic country but also one where prostitution is out in the open and pre-marital sex is becoming very common.  Unfortunately, both of these are far more common than condom usage is and this is having very detrimental effects on society.  The public by and large supports the idea of government-subsidized contraceptives despite being religious Catholics but the church actively lobbies elected officials to stall any move toward this.</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention The Would-Be Church » First Thoughts &#124; A First Things Blog -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/22/the-would-be-church/comment-page-1/#comment-29101</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention The Would-Be Church » First Thoughts &#124; A First Things Blog -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Nov 2010 18:26:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=24775#comment-29101</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Larry Vern Newman, Michael Liccione. Michael Liccione said: RT @rofters The Would-Be Church » First Thoughts &#124; A First Things Blog http://is.gd/hAYAv [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Larry Vern Newman, Michael Liccione. Michael Liccione said: RT @rofters The Would-Be Church » First Thoughts | A First Things Blog <a href="http://is.gd/hAYAv" rel="nofollow">http://is.gd/hAYAv</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: SDG</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/22/the-would-be-church/comment-page-1/#comment-29090</link>
		<dc:creator>SDG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Nov 2010 15:11:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=24775#comment-29090</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the most outrageously unprincipled journalistic misconduct I&#039;ve seen was in the Boston Herald, which opens with the headline and deck, &quot;Pontiff blesses condom use - Pope says in some cases it’s justified to stop spread of HIV.&quot; 

http://tinyurl.com/2d3jrl8

Best perspective online is from Jimmy Akin at NCRegister.com: 

http://tinyurl.com/25dwd8k
http://tinyurl.com/28x6jqx]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the most outrageously unprincipled journalistic misconduct I&#8217;ve seen was in the Boston Herald, which opens with the headline and deck, &#8220;Pontiff blesses condom use &#8211; Pope says in some cases it’s justified to stop spread of HIV.&#8221; </p>
<p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/2d3jrl8" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/2d3jrl8</a></p>
<p>Best perspective online is from Jimmy Akin at NCRegister.com: </p>
<p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/25dwd8k" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/25dwd8k</a><br />
<a href="http://tinyurl.com/28x6jqx" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/28x6jqx</a></p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Staley-Joyce</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/22/the-would-be-church/comment-page-1/#comment-29089</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Staley-Joyce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Nov 2010 14:51:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=24775#comment-29089</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Harvard researcher Edward Green&#039;s summary of his study can be found here, in the pages of First Things&#039; April 2008 issue: 

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/03/002-aids-and-the-churches-getting-the-story-right-27]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Harvard researcher Edward Green&#8217;s summary of his study can be found here, in the pages of First Things&#8217; April 2008 issue: </p>
<p><a href="http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/03/002-aids-and-the-churches-getting-the-story-right-27" rel="nofollow">http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/03/002-aids-and-the-churches-getting-the-story-right-27</a></p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/11/22/the-would-be-church/comment-page-1/#comment-29088</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Nov 2010 14:21:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=24775#comment-29088</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Do you have a link to the Harvard report?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you have a link to the Harvard report?</p>
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