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	<title>Comments on: Divorce and Statistics</title>
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		<title>By: Why the sexual revolution has been bad for the poor &#171; Tempora Christiana</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/01/14/divorce-and-statistics/comment-page-1/#comment-31933</link>
		<dc:creator>Why the sexual revolution has been bad for the poor &#171; Tempora Christiana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jan 2011 15:10:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=26452#comment-31933</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Google Reader, Joel shared a post from First Thoughts.  R.R. Reno, looking over statistics from the National Marriage Project, writes &#8220;educational levels, [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Google Reader, Joel shared a post from First Thoughts.  R.R. Reno, looking over statistics from the National Marriage Project, writes &#8220;educational levels, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/01/14/divorce-and-statistics/comment-page-1/#comment-31870</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jan 2011 15:20:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=26452#comment-31870</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I understand completely what&#039;s being said here.
What I find superficial and misguided are attempts to discuss moral arguments from materialist perspectives. The motivation for this is nearly always some appeal to &quot;social justice&quot; or other socialist redistributive policies. Socialists and Communists make these determinist, materialist arguments to further their cause.
This article basically comes down to......&quot;It&#039;s better to have money so you can come out of the cold and not freeze.&quot;
Really?
So again.......let&#039;s address one of the most signifigant moral issues of our time from a superficial.......SELF OBVIOUS perspective.
Let&#039;s change direction and get something besides political correctness from this.
The Confucian pinciple of the family would say that a poor family should cooperate and work together to make their various contributions(however meager) so as to increase the possibility of a decent level of subsistence.

I think there&#039;s moral power there.

On the other hand......we in the West have people making arguments that all of our social dissolution is the result of poverty or discrimination or sexism.......or whatever.

When black America was much poorer and deprived than now.........their illegitimate pregnancy rates, and divorce rates were much lower than now.

And literacy was way higher then.

Why?

Because then they subscribed to something much more like the Confucian principle than the modern materialist arguments they hold now.

If Reno is not making the materialist argument........more power to him.

But for those highlighting this issue for the purposes of advancing redistributive arguments which have demonstrably failed for decades.................you are misguided.

Spiritual decline is the issue.........and whether resources shield you temporarily from the effects...........you will have to square accounts eventually.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand completely what&#8217;s being said here.<br />
What I find superficial and misguided are attempts to discuss moral arguments from materialist perspectives. The motivation for this is nearly always some appeal to &#8220;social justice&#8221; or other socialist redistributive policies. Socialists and Communists make these determinist, materialist arguments to further their cause.<br />
This article basically comes down to&#8230;&#8230;&#8221;It&#8217;s better to have money so you can come out of the cold and not freeze.&#8221;<br />
Really?<br />
So again&#8230;&#8230;.let&#8217;s address one of the most signifigant moral issues of our time from a superficial&#8230;&#8230;.SELF OBVIOUS perspective.<br />
Let&#8217;s change direction and get something besides political correctness from this.<br />
The Confucian pinciple of the family would say that a poor family should cooperate and work together to make their various contributions(however meager) so as to increase the possibility of a decent level of subsistence.</p>
<p>I think there&#8217;s moral power there.</p>
<p>On the other hand&#8230;&#8230;we in the West have people making arguments that all of our social dissolution is the result of poverty or discrimination or sexism&#8230;&#8230;.or whatever.</p>
<p>When black America was much poorer and deprived than now&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;their illegitimate pregnancy rates, and divorce rates were much lower than now.</p>
<p>And literacy was way higher then.</p>
<p>Why?</p>
<p>Because then they subscribed to something much more like the Confucian principle than the modern materialist arguments they hold now.</p>
<p>If Reno is not making the materialist argument&#8230;&#8230;..more power to him.</p>
<p>But for those highlighting this issue for the purposes of advancing redistributive arguments which have demonstrably failed for decades&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..you are misguided.</p>
<p>Spiritual decline is the issue&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;and whether resources shield you temporarily from the effects&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..you will have to square accounts eventually.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen M. Barr</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/01/14/divorce-and-statistics/comment-page-1/#comment-31859</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen M. Barr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jan 2011 03:19:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=26452#comment-31859</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am not sure why Daniel is having such a hard time understanding this article.  

I don&#039;t think G.K. Chesterton was a materialist, and a hundred years ago he predicted what is happening now: easy divorce, he said, would end up hurting the poor far more than the well-to-do.  I remember reading the book when I was a teenager 40 years ago and I didn&#039;t see his point; but he was right.  

The well-to-do are often cushioned from the consequences of their own bad behavior.  A poor man&#039;s drinking may cost him his job and he ends up in the gutter. Whereas a rich man can continue to live comfortably and send his children to good schools.  

Moreover, the poor have greater economic worries, and therefore more stress on their marriages.  To say that moral and material factors can interact with each other to produce &quot;vicious cycles&quot; for the poor and the opposite for the well-off is not a very hard idea to understand.  Anyone who has been paying attention for the last fifty years or so should be able to see many of the ways in which this happens.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not sure why Daniel is having such a hard time understanding this article.  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think G.K. Chesterton was a materialist, and a hundred years ago he predicted what is happening now: easy divorce, he said, would end up hurting the poor far more than the well-to-do.  I remember reading the book when I was a teenager 40 years ago and I didn&#8217;t see his point; but he was right.  </p>
<p>The well-to-do are often cushioned from the consequences of their own bad behavior.  A poor man&#8217;s drinking may cost him his job and he ends up in the gutter. Whereas a rich man can continue to live comfortably and send his children to good schools.  </p>
<p>Moreover, the poor have greater economic worries, and therefore more stress on their marriages.  To say that moral and material factors can interact with each other to produce &#8220;vicious cycles&#8221; for the poor and the opposite for the well-off is not a very hard idea to understand.  Anyone who has been paying attention for the last fifty years or so should be able to see many of the ways in which this happens.</p>
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		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/01/14/divorce-and-statistics/comment-page-1/#comment-31853</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jan 2011 00:48:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=26452#comment-31853</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Michael, unions lost their clout because they lost their moral authority.

They lost their moral authority because they misspent it.

The inability to separate a need from a want has been the bane of pretty much every great left wing idea of the 20th century - including not only unions (that can currently prevent a company from firing a known thief, but cannot make companies enforce safety regs - and don&#039;t appear particularly interested in trying).

Feminism had moral authority and legitimacy when it attacked the real powerlessness of women. It went over the line, and instead of arguing for what is fair, it started coming up with justifications for why it could ignore real and legitimate issues - going beyond fairness to actually demand more than what is actually fair.

These things kill relationships.

Relationships - especially ones that involve sharing of resources and responsibilities - have institutions that evolve for the purpose of regulating what is fair. Liberals did very well when they focused on justice. They lost power - and, not coincidentally, marriages and unions both started failing - when liberals went beyond justice and into a pattern of targeting the supposedly &quot;most powerful&quot; member of the arrangement and opposing anything that granted him power - in essence, demanding that the heads of businesses and the heads of families continue to honor all the obligations that go with their positions, but without getting any of the resources (including emotional resources such as respect for authority).

The real problem is one of misdiagnosis.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, unions lost their clout because they lost their moral authority.</p>
<p>They lost their moral authority because they misspent it.</p>
<p>The inability to separate a need from a want has been the bane of pretty much every great left wing idea of the 20th century &#8211; including not only unions (that can currently prevent a company from firing a known thief, but cannot make companies enforce safety regs &#8211; and don&#8217;t appear particularly interested in trying).</p>
<p>Feminism had moral authority and legitimacy when it attacked the real powerlessness of women. It went over the line, and instead of arguing for what is fair, it started coming up with justifications for why it could ignore real and legitimate issues &#8211; going beyond fairness to actually demand more than what is actually fair.</p>
<p>These things kill relationships.</p>
<p>Relationships &#8211; especially ones that involve sharing of resources and responsibilities &#8211; have institutions that evolve for the purpose of regulating what is fair. Liberals did very well when they focused on justice. They lost power &#8211; and, not coincidentally, marriages and unions both started failing &#8211; when liberals went beyond justice and into a pattern of targeting the supposedly &#8220;most powerful&#8221; member of the arrangement and opposing anything that granted him power &#8211; in essence, demanding that the heads of businesses and the heads of families continue to honor all the obligations that go with their positions, but without getting any of the resources (including emotional resources such as respect for authority).</p>
<p>The real problem is one of misdiagnosis.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/01/14/divorce-and-statistics/comment-page-1/#comment-31803</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jan 2011 17:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=26452#comment-31803</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Maybe I&#039;m misreading Reno. If he&#039;s making the case that people who are in reality divorced but spared the legal status of divorce through greater resources.......OK.......resources allow them the avoid the legal status of divorce while being divorced in spirit.
Pentamom&#039;s point about material wealth shielding people from the EFFECTS of spiritual decline is an observation. But spiritual decline is spiritual decline whether you feel the effects or not.(which may be Reno&#039;s point....and kudos if it is.)
Michael&#039;s point about the motivation for working outside the home I&#039;m sure is valid in many cases but not all.
Again.........these are materialist arguments on a moral issue.
I subscribe to a somewhat Confucian ideal on this issue. Families should adjust their lifestyle down if the mother wants to stay home.
It can be done........or at least explored.
And Bork&#039;s points on feminism go far beyond working mothers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe I&#8217;m misreading Reno. If he&#8217;s making the case that people who are in reality divorced but spared the legal status of divorce through greater resources&#8230;&#8230;.OK&#8230;&#8230;.resources allow them the avoid the legal status of divorce while being divorced in spirit.<br />
Pentamom&#8217;s point about material wealth shielding people from the EFFECTS of spiritual decline is an observation. But spiritual decline is spiritual decline whether you feel the effects or not.(which may be Reno&#8217;s point&#8230;.and kudos if it is.)<br />
Michael&#8217;s point about the motivation for working outside the home I&#8217;m sure is valid in many cases but not all.<br />
Again&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;these are materialist arguments on a moral issue.<br />
I subscribe to a somewhat Confucian ideal on this issue. Families should adjust their lifestyle down if the mother wants to stay home.<br />
It can be done&#8230;&#8230;..or at least explored.<br />
And Bork&#8217;s points on feminism go far beyond working mothers.</p>
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		<title>By: pentamom</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/01/14/divorce-and-statistics/comment-page-1/#comment-31799</link>
		<dc:creator>pentamom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jan 2011 17:04:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=26452#comment-31799</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Daniel, to observe a material reality and its effects is not the same thing as being a materialist. It has always been true and will always be true that material wealth superficially protects individuals from some of the effects of spiritual decline. Even the book of Proverbs has something to say about that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel, to observe a material reality and its effects is not the same thing as being a materialist. It has always been true and will always be true that material wealth superficially protects individuals from some of the effects of spiritual decline. Even the book of Proverbs has something to say about that.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/01/14/divorce-and-statistics/comment-page-1/#comment-31798</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jan 2011 17:00:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=26452#comment-31798</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Contra Bork, most women don&#039;t work outside the home because they are feminists.  They work outside the home because their husbands don&#039;t make enough money to support the family.  And men started making less money when unions lost their clout, and companies began shipping jobs overseas.  

It&#039;s the economic policies of those who support what they call &quot;free enterprise&quot; that is driving the income inequality that is the greatest factor in the erosion of marriage.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Contra Bork, most women don&#8217;t work outside the home because they are feminists.  They work outside the home because their husbands don&#8217;t make enough money to support the family.  And men started making less money when unions lost their clout, and companies began shipping jobs overseas.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s the economic policies of those who support what they call &#8220;free enterprise&#8221; that is driving the income inequality that is the greatest factor in the erosion of marriage.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Keith Chesterton</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/01/14/divorce-and-statistics/comment-page-1/#comment-31787</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Keith Chesterton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jan 2011 15:23:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=26452#comment-31787</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was just ticking off in my mind all of my positive factors.  Okay, college degree, good job, go to church, parents married until they died...and I concluded that my marriage is unlikely to end in divorce.  I congratulated myself...until I remembered it&#039;s my second marriage. :^(]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was just ticking off in my mind all of my positive factors.  Okay, college degree, good job, go to church, parents married until they died&#8230;and I concluded that my marriage is unlikely to end in divorce.  I congratulated myself&#8230;until I remembered it&#8217;s my second marriage. :^(</p>
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		<title>By: baconboy</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/01/14/divorce-and-statistics/comment-page-1/#comment-31784</link>
		<dc:creator>baconboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jan 2011 15:08:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=26452#comment-31784</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Daniel, I&#039;m unclear as to who you think is a materialist determinist here -- are you accusing Reno of this or the authors of the paper he cites?  Because Reno is certainly not a materialist.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel, I&#8217;m unclear as to who you think is a materialist determinist here &#8212; are you accusing Reno of this or the authors of the paper he cites?  Because Reno is certainly not a materialist.</p>
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		<title>By: The Engaging Essentials at</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/01/14/divorce-and-statistics/comment-page-1/#comment-31783</link>
		<dc:creator>The Engaging Essentials at</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jan 2011 15:03:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=26452#comment-31783</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] comments  Divorce and Statistics &#8211; First Things blogger R.R. Reno highlights some thoughts you probably already knew, but have [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] comments  Divorce and Statistics &#8211; First Things blogger R.R. Reno highlights some thoughts you probably already knew, but have [...]</p>
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