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	<title>Comments on: Why Have There Been No Great Modern Religious Artists?</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/01/25/why-have-there-been-no-great-modern-religious-artists/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Matthew Milliner</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/01/25/why-have-there-been-no-great-modern-religious-artists/comment-page-1/#comment-33089</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Milliner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Feb 2011 00:04:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=26755#comment-33089</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Because Mike asked, I have some thoughts at First Things on both the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2008/10/painting-and-st-paul&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;division between icons and art galleries&lt;/a&gt; as well as &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2007/12/god-in-the-gallery&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Dali and Warhol&lt;/a&gt;, both mentioned above.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because Mike asked, I have some thoughts at First Things on both the <a href="http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2008/10/painting-and-st-paul" rel="nofollow">division between icons and art galleries</a> as well as <a href="http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2007/12/god-in-the-gallery" rel="nofollow">Dali and Warhol</a>, both mentioned above.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Koehl</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/01/25/why-have-there-been-no-great-modern-religious-artists/comment-page-1/#comment-32703</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Koehl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jan 2011 22:27:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=26755#comment-32703</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Is the symposium really “unwilling” to discuss Orthodox iconography (as Stuart Koehl puts it), or is it just not on the schedule? &quot;

We are the product of our choices.  The organizers of the symposium chose to have presentations on quite a number of PoMo favorites, as well as minor artists of whom no one outside of the hothouse world of modern art has ever heard--all with the kind of pretentious, deconstructionist themes I have come to expect from such gatherings.  Yet a form of modern art--and icons, being produced today in both the West and the East do qualify--seen by and accessible to the &quot;masses&quot; is not considered worthy of discussion.

&quot;In fact, it looks very much like Western art before it developed over the last eight hundred years. That could make for an interesting discussion, but hardly a natural or necessary one.&quot;

That might hold water if these same art critics were not falling all over themselves to say how much modern artists from Chagall to Picasso to Warhol were influenced by iconography.  Apparently, it&#039;s OK to discuss artists who are influenced by it, but not OK to discuss those who produce the real thing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Is the symposium really “unwilling” to discuss Orthodox iconography (as Stuart Koehl puts it), or is it just not on the schedule? &#8221;</p>
<p>We are the product of our choices.  The organizers of the symposium chose to have presentations on quite a number of PoMo favorites, as well as minor artists of whom no one outside of the hothouse world of modern art has ever heard&#8211;all with the kind of pretentious, deconstructionist themes I have come to expect from such gatherings.  Yet a form of modern art&#8211;and icons, being produced today in both the West and the East do qualify&#8211;seen by and accessible to the &#8220;masses&#8221; is not considered worthy of discussion.</p>
<p>&#8220;In fact, it looks very much like Western art before it developed over the last eight hundred years. That could make for an interesting discussion, but hardly a natural or necessary one.&#8221;</p>
<p>That might hold water if these same art critics were not falling all over themselves to say how much modern artists from Chagall to Picasso to Warhol were influenced by iconography.  Apparently, it&#8217;s OK to discuss artists who are influenced by it, but not OK to discuss those who produce the real thing.</p>
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		<title>By: T.B.Root</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/01/25/why-have-there-been-no-great-modern-religious-artists/comment-page-1/#comment-32693</link>
		<dc:creator>T.B.Root</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jan 2011 21:29:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=26755#comment-32693</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Is the symposium really &quot;unwilling&quot; to discuss Orthodox iconography (as Stuart Koehl puts it), or is it just not on the schedule? I don&#039;t have spinach scheduled for dinner, but I&#039;m not unwilling to eat it. 

Iconography lies somewhat outside of Western art as it developed over the last eight hundred years. In fact, it looks very much like Western art before it developed over the last eight hundred years. That could make for an interesting discussion, but hardly a natural or necessary one.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is the symposium really &#8220;unwilling&#8221; to discuss Orthodox iconography (as Stuart Koehl puts it), or is it just not on the schedule? I don&#8217;t have spinach scheduled for dinner, but I&#8217;m not unwilling to eat it. </p>
<p>Iconography lies somewhat outside of Western art as it developed over the last eight hundred years. In fact, it looks very much like Western art before it developed over the last eight hundred years. That could make for an interesting discussion, but hardly a natural or necessary one.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Koehl</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/01/25/why-have-there-been-no-great-modern-religious-artists/comment-page-1/#comment-32671</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Koehl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jan 2011 18:45:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=26755#comment-32671</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No, Pentamom, I think you misunderstand.  I don&#039;t know of any Serious Orthodox Folks who do not think iconography is a valid subject for an academic seminar, and I don&#039;t know any who would object to the description of icons as sacred art.  There are Orthodox who object to the display of icons in museums as though they were &quot;only&quot; painting, and with that I do, to a large extent, agree (albeit reluctantly).

My problem is a seminar that is willing to discuss &quot;modern artists&quot; influenced by iconography, but is unwilling to discuss iconography at all.  And I believe that has to do with fundamental way in which the artistic establishment views the role of the artist.  In that paradigm, the artist uses his medium to express his view of the world.  A artist who produces religious art, therefore, is making paintings, sculptures, collages, mobiles, or multi-media productions that express his view of religion or religious subjects.  In the end, it&#039;s about the artist.

The iconographer, on the other hand, is not interested in expressing his vision of Christianity or events within Christianity--he&#039;s concerned with expressing the truth as contained within the Tradition of the Church, by working within a defined canon of materials, composition and style.

That does not mean the iconographer is a mere copyist--though I have run into that perception among artists and art critics (and to be frank, it&#039;s largely true about the majority of iconographers--but then, it&#039;s true about the majority of secular artists, as well).  The great iconographers, while subsuming themselves within the canon, also have the ability, through subtle variations or alterations of color, composition or expression, to reveal entirely unexpected truths within their icons--witness, e.g., the famous Rublev &quot;Old Testament Trinity&quot; as compared to more mundane renderings of the same subject.

As I noted, there are many extraordinary iconographers at work today--the renaissance in the field is unparalleled since the 15th century.  They are legitimate artists, working in a legitimate medium that deserves to be placed on the same plane as more widely accepted modern artists, many of whom are decidedly mediocre or whose work is so academic and opaque as to be accessible only to fellow academics.

And there, I suppose, is another source of difficulty:  the Academy is hostile to the spirit that motivates and inspires the iconographer, because it presents an insurmountable challenge to academic art.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, Pentamom, I think you misunderstand.  I don&#8217;t know of any Serious Orthodox Folks who do not think iconography is a valid subject for an academic seminar, and I don&#8217;t know any who would object to the description of icons as sacred art.  There are Orthodox who object to the display of icons in museums as though they were &#8220;only&#8221; painting, and with that I do, to a large extent, agree (albeit reluctantly).</p>
<p>My problem is a seminar that is willing to discuss &#8220;modern artists&#8221; influenced by iconography, but is unwilling to discuss iconography at all.  And I believe that has to do with fundamental way in which the artistic establishment views the role of the artist.  In that paradigm, the artist uses his medium to express his view of the world.  A artist who produces religious art, therefore, is making paintings, sculptures, collages, mobiles, or multi-media productions that express his view of religion or religious subjects.  In the end, it&#8217;s about the artist.</p>
<p>The iconographer, on the other hand, is not interested in expressing his vision of Christianity or events within Christianity&#8211;he&#8217;s concerned with expressing the truth as contained within the Tradition of the Church, by working within a defined canon of materials, composition and style.</p>
<p>That does not mean the iconographer is a mere copyist&#8211;though I have run into that perception among artists and art critics (and to be frank, it&#8217;s largely true about the majority of iconographers&#8211;but then, it&#8217;s true about the majority of secular artists, as well).  The great iconographers, while subsuming themselves within the canon, also have the ability, through subtle variations or alterations of color, composition or expression, to reveal entirely unexpected truths within their icons&#8211;witness, e.g., the famous Rublev &#8220;Old Testament Trinity&#8221; as compared to more mundane renderings of the same subject.</p>
<p>As I noted, there are many extraordinary iconographers at work today&#8211;the renaissance in the field is unparalleled since the 15th century.  They are legitimate artists, working in a legitimate medium that deserves to be placed on the same plane as more widely accepted modern artists, many of whom are decidedly mediocre or whose work is so academic and opaque as to be accessible only to fellow academics.</p>
<p>And there, I suppose, is another source of difficulty:  the Academy is hostile to the spirit that motivates and inspires the iconographer, because it presents an insurmountable challenge to academic art.</p>
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		<title>By: pentamom</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/01/25/why-have-there-been-no-great-modern-religious-artists/comment-page-1/#comment-32643</link>
		<dc:creator>pentamom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jan 2011 15:35:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=26755#comment-32643</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Stuart, I know you are serious Orthodox folks -- and not all serious Orthodox folks agree on this, evidently. So your beef seems to be that *your view* is not the one adopted, because in light of the arguments I&#039;ve heard, it can&#039;t be said that Orthodox practice is universally agreed on the question of treating iconography as &quot;art&quot; in the sense this post is talking about.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stuart, I know you are serious Orthodox folks &#8212; and not all serious Orthodox folks agree on this, evidently. So your beef seems to be that *your view* is not the one adopted, because in light of the arguments I&#8217;ve heard, it can&#8217;t be said that Orthodox practice is universally agreed on the question of treating iconography as &#8220;art&#8221; in the sense this post is talking about.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Koehl</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/01/25/why-have-there-been-no-great-modern-religious-artists/comment-page-1/#comment-32629</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Koehl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jan 2011 12:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=26755#comment-32629</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just to elaborate a little more, I do have very mixed feelings about icons displayed as art in art galleries.  That is not their proper milieu--icons are meant to be venerated both privately and liturgically, and therefore one must be able to pray before them, to touch them, to kiss them.  Hard to do with an armed guard looking over your shoulder.  On the other hand, without such displays, icons would never have become familiar to millions of people outside of the Eastern Churches, and, without their protection in museums, many beautiful and sacred images would have been destroyed during the Communist era.

But, in any case, the conference would be discussing art, not displaying it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to elaborate a little more, I do have very mixed feelings about icons displayed as art in art galleries.  That is not their proper milieu&#8211;icons are meant to be venerated both privately and liturgically, and therefore one must be able to pray before them, to touch them, to kiss them.  Hard to do with an armed guard looking over your shoulder.  On the other hand, without such displays, icons would never have become familiar to millions of people outside of the Eastern Churches, and, without their protection in museums, many beautiful and sacred images would have been destroyed during the Communist era.</p>
<p>But, in any case, the conference would be discussing art, not displaying it.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Koehl</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/01/25/why-have-there-been-no-great-modern-religious-artists/comment-page-1/#comment-32628</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Koehl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jan 2011 12:36:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=26755#comment-32628</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am serious Orthodox folks, and icons are indeed art--they are &quot;sacred art&quot;, which means that they should be considered in a conference of this sort.  I suspect the problem is the theology of sacred images and the belief that the artist must subsume his personal feelings and beliefs into the canon of iconography.  In the minds of many academic artists, critics and art historians, this makes iconography &quot;not art&quot;, since art is about the artist.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am serious Orthodox folks, and icons are indeed art&#8211;they are &#8220;sacred art&#8221;, which means that they should be considered in a conference of this sort.  I suspect the problem is the theology of sacred images and the belief that the artist must subsume his personal feelings and beliefs into the canon of iconography.  In the minds of many academic artists, critics and art historians, this makes iconography &#8220;not art&#8221;, since art is about the artist.</p>
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		<title>By: AB</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/01/25/why-have-there-been-no-great-modern-religious-artists/comment-page-1/#comment-32626</link>
		<dc:creator>AB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jan 2011 08:01:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=26755#comment-32626</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As I get older, I like the art of Georges Rouault more and more.  I also like the icons of Vladislav Andreyev.

I also like the religious art of Gerhard Richter, especially his window at Cologne Cathedral.

 I think that Vincent van Gogh said it was easier for a nonbeliever to produce religious art in a religious society than for a believer to produce religious art in a secular society.  I think it had to do with the lack of self-consciousness (and flak, probably).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I get older, I like the art of Georges Rouault more and more.  I also like the icons of Vladislav Andreyev.</p>
<p>I also like the religious art of Gerhard Richter, especially his window at Cologne Cathedral.</p>
<p> I think that Vincent van Gogh said it was easier for a nonbeliever to produce religious art in a religious society than for a believer to produce religious art in a secular society.  I think it had to do with the lack of self-consciousness (and flak, probably).</p>
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		<title>By: pentamom</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/01/25/why-have-there-been-no-great-modern-religious-artists/comment-page-1/#comment-32617</link>
		<dc:creator>pentamom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jan 2011 01:54:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=26755#comment-32617</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Stuart, I&#039;ve had serious Orthodox folk tell me that iconography shouldn&#039;t be treated as &quot;art&quot; but as something else. So maybe the people running this conference are respecting that view.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stuart, I&#8217;ve had serious Orthodox folk tell me that iconography shouldn&#8217;t be treated as &#8220;art&#8221; but as something else. So maybe the people running this conference are respecting that view.</p>
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		<title>By: Lewis</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/01/25/why-have-there-been-no-great-modern-religious-artists/comment-page-1/#comment-32605</link>
		<dc:creator>Lewis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jan 2011 22:25:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=26755#comment-32605</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[“As I demonstrated, there are plenty out there, and much of their work is brilliant. Is iconography not really art? If it isn’t, what is it?”

Another permanently aggrieved member of a minority whose only real politics are identity politics.  The kind who scans a conference program only to find out whether one of his own kind is included.  The subject itself doesn’t matter, just the identity group.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“As I demonstrated, there are plenty out there, and much of their work is brilliant. Is iconography not really art? If it isn’t, what is it?”</p>
<p>Another permanently aggrieved member of a minority whose only real politics are identity politics.  The kind who scans a conference program only to find out whether one of his own kind is included.  The subject itself doesn’t matter, just the identity group.</p>
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