<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Church Confusion</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/03/01/church-confusion/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/03/01/church-confusion/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 23 May 2013 18:33:21 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dvora</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/03/01/church-confusion/comment-page-1/#comment-35791</link>
		<dc:creator>Dvora</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Mar 2011 07:05:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=27372#comment-35791</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kevin mentions that Mrs Klueting is a &quot;third-order Carmelite.&quot;  That is a broad, non-specific description of Mrs Klueting&#039;s vocation. By that title, one can assume that she is a member of the Third Order of the ancient observance, i.e. T.O.Carm. A photo of Father and Mrs Klueting is featured on his website; and sure enough, the caption identifies her as &quot;Dr. phil. Edeltraud Klueting T.OCarm.&quot;  According to Canon Law, the members of third orders are called to &quot;tend toward&quot; the evangelical counsels within their state in life. So, there should be no scandal to  learn that Father Harm Klueting is still residing and celebrating the Sacrament of Marriage with his wife, Edeltraud Klueting, T.O.Carm.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin mentions that Mrs Klueting is a &#8220;third-order Carmelite.&#8221;  That is a broad, non-specific description of Mrs Klueting&#8217;s vocation. By that title, one can assume that she is a member of the Third Order of the ancient observance, i.e. T.O.Carm. A photo of Father and Mrs Klueting is featured on his website; and sure enough, the caption identifies her as &#8220;Dr. phil. Edeltraud Klueting T.OCarm.&#8221;  According to Canon Law, the members of third orders are called to &#8220;tend toward&#8221; the evangelical counsels within their state in life. So, there should be no scandal to  learn that Father Harm Klueting is still residing and celebrating the Sacrament of Marriage with his wife, Edeltraud Klueting, T.O.Carm.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Stuart Koehl</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/03/01/church-confusion/comment-page-1/#comment-34739</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Koehl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Mar 2011 01:59:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=27372#comment-34739</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Remember, it’s not just sex that doesn’t happen between two people who don’t have contact with each other, it’s all the other things you vow to do that can’t happen, either. “Love” is the exception, but it’s not allowed to take any active form in that situation. And it’s a mutual voluntary decision to violate the vows, which is definitely “putting asunder” of the marriage.&quot;

I guess my fundamental problem is there are no &quot;vows&quot; in Eastern Christian marriages.  In the West, the couple are the ordinary ministers of the sacrament; in effect, they marry each other, and the Church stands as witness and blesses the union.  In the East, the priest is the ordinary minister of the sacrament, who unites the couple through the descent and action of the Holy Spirit (which is why a deacon is not permitted to preside when a Roman Catholic marries an Eastern Catholic).  The man and woman do not exchange any vows, nor is there even an exchange of rings (rings are exchanged at a separate betrothal service).

So, while you may have a point within the Western sacramental theology of marriage, it doesn&#039;t apply to Eastern marriage.  That said, ultimately, the Church is the final arbiter of what constitutes a nullification of the union, and obviously even the Latin Church did not consider leaving marriage for the monastic life to violate the sacrament.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Remember, it’s not just sex that doesn’t happen between two people who don’t have contact with each other, it’s all the other things you vow to do that can’t happen, either. “Love” is the exception, but it’s not allowed to take any active form in that situation. And it’s a mutual voluntary decision to violate the vows, which is definitely “putting asunder” of the marriage.&#8221;</p>
<p>I guess my fundamental problem is there are no &#8220;vows&#8221; in Eastern Christian marriages.  In the West, the couple are the ordinary ministers of the sacrament; in effect, they marry each other, and the Church stands as witness and blesses the union.  In the East, the priest is the ordinary minister of the sacrament, who unites the couple through the descent and action of the Holy Spirit (which is why a deacon is not permitted to preside when a Roman Catholic marries an Eastern Catholic).  The man and woman do not exchange any vows, nor is there even an exchange of rings (rings are exchanged at a separate betrothal service).</p>
<p>So, while you may have a point within the Western sacramental theology of marriage, it doesn&#8217;t apply to Eastern marriage.  That said, ultimately, the Church is the final arbiter of what constitutes a nullification of the union, and obviously even the Latin Church did not consider leaving marriage for the monastic life to violate the sacrament.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: pentamom</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/03/01/church-confusion/comment-page-1/#comment-34737</link>
		<dc:creator>pentamom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Mar 2011 00:40:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=27372#comment-34737</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Stuart, neither of your examples includes all the elements of willful choice, lack of desire to honor vows, and the evacuation of ALL marriage vows. Remember, it&#039;s not just sex that doesn&#039;t happen between two people who don&#039;t have contact with each other, it&#039;s all the other things you vow to do that can&#039;t happen, either. &quot;Love&quot; is the exception, but it&#039;s not allowed to take any active form in that situation. And it&#039;s a mutual voluntary decision to violate the vows, which is definitely &quot;putting asunder&quot; of the marriage.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stuart, neither of your examples includes all the elements of willful choice, lack of desire to honor vows, and the evacuation of ALL marriage vows. Remember, it&#8217;s not just sex that doesn&#8217;t happen between two people who don&#8217;t have contact with each other, it&#8217;s all the other things you vow to do that can&#8217;t happen, either. &#8220;Love&#8221; is the exception, but it&#8217;s not allowed to take any active form in that situation. And it&#8217;s a mutual voluntary decision to violate the vows, which is definitely &#8220;putting asunder&#8221; of the marriage.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dblade</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/03/01/church-confusion/comment-page-1/#comment-34735</link>
		<dc:creator>Dblade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Mar 2011 00:06:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=27372#comment-34735</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yeah, I&#039;m still not getting this. To the point of the article, I think Catholics really don&#039;t understand how arcane your church looks to those of us outside, and even making a good faith effort to research can still bring a lot of confusion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I&#8217;m still not getting this. To the point of the article, I think Catholics really don&#8217;t understand how arcane your church looks to those of us outside, and even making a good faith effort to research can still bring a lot of confusion.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Stuart Koehl</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/03/01/church-confusion/comment-page-1/#comment-34716</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Koehl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Mar 2011 20:15:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=27372#comment-34716</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;The indissolubility of marriage means that no second marriage is possible during the first.&quot;

The Eastern Churches would hold that only one sacramental marriage is possible, period, regardless of whether the other spouse is living or deceased.  In the West, marriage tended to develop in the form of a life contract, whereas in the East, the older view of marriage as transcending death persisted.

This may seem paradoxical, as the Eastern Churches allow remarriage after widowhood and divorce, but second marriages, for whatever cause, are not considered sacramental.  In fact, prior to the 9th century, the Eastern Churches did not even perform second marriages, but only reintegrated those who got them in civil ceremonies through a penitential process of prayer, fasting, and abstinence from communion for 3-5 years.  The Eastern Churches also only allow remarriage after divorce for a severely limited number of reasons (of which the desire of one party to enter monastic life is one), and then only to the innocent party.

Thus, e.g., adultery is considered legitimate grounds for divorce, but only the offended party would be allowed to remarry.  If both parties had committed adultery, neither would be permitted to remarry.  Neither is &quot;irreconcilable differences&quot; or mutual desire for divorce considered just grounds, and couples who engaged in deception in order to obtain a divorce (e.g., the husband moves to another village to feign abandonment, or one party consents to an act of adultery by the other, then neither would be permitted to remarry.

Finally, the Eastern Churches will allow only three marriages per lifetime, total, in accordance with the teaching of St. Basil the Great.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The indissolubility of marriage means that no second marriage is possible during the first.&#8221;</p>
<p>The Eastern Churches would hold that only one sacramental marriage is possible, period, regardless of whether the other spouse is living or deceased.  In the West, marriage tended to develop in the form of a life contract, whereas in the East, the older view of marriage as transcending death persisted.</p>
<p>This may seem paradoxical, as the Eastern Churches allow remarriage after widowhood and divorce, but second marriages, for whatever cause, are not considered sacramental.  In fact, prior to the 9th century, the Eastern Churches did not even perform second marriages, but only reintegrated those who got them in civil ceremonies through a penitential process of prayer, fasting, and abstinence from communion for 3-5 years.  The Eastern Churches also only allow remarriage after divorce for a severely limited number of reasons (of which the desire of one party to enter monastic life is one), and then only to the innocent party.</p>
<p>Thus, e.g., adultery is considered legitimate grounds for divorce, but only the offended party would be allowed to remarry.  If both parties had committed adultery, neither would be permitted to remarry.  Neither is &#8220;irreconcilable differences&#8221; or mutual desire for divorce considered just grounds, and couples who engaged in deception in order to obtain a divorce (e.g., the husband moves to another village to feign abandonment, or one party consents to an act of adultery by the other, then neither would be permitted to remarry.</p>
<p>Finally, the Eastern Churches will allow only three marriages per lifetime, total, in accordance with the teaching of St. Basil the Great.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Stuart Koehl</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/03/01/church-confusion/comment-page-1/#comment-34714</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Koehl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Mar 2011 20:08:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=27372#comment-34714</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;If two married people deliberately choose to live apart with no contact and no ability or desire to fulfill their marriage vows, they have broken the vows and ended the marriage.&quot;

To some extent yes, and yet to another, no.  Take, for example, a man imprisoned for life without conjugal visitation rights.  Or a couple who are not, for physical reasons able to engage in conjugal relations any longer.  While the Church has always held that marrying without any intent to consummate the marriage was grounds for annulment (false intentions), it has never found inability to be grounds for annullment.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If two married people deliberately choose to live apart with no contact and no ability or desire to fulfill their marriage vows, they have broken the vows and ended the marriage.&#8221;</p>
<p>To some extent yes, and yet to another, no.  Take, for example, a man imprisoned for life without conjugal visitation rights.  Or a couple who are not, for physical reasons able to engage in conjugal relations any longer.  While the Church has always held that marrying without any intent to consummate the marriage was grounds for annulment (false intentions), it has never found inability to be grounds for annullment.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: pentamom</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/03/01/church-confusion/comment-page-1/#comment-34711</link>
		<dc:creator>pentamom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Mar 2011 19:25:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=27372#comment-34711</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Michael PS,

Sorry, I&#039;m not familiar with that term.

I just think it&#039;s odd that marriage vows can be set aside at will like that -- that, in effect, man CAN put asunder what God joins together, as long as there&#039;s a monastery involved. I don&#039;t understand what a permanent vow can mean in that context.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael PS,</p>
<p>Sorry, I&#8217;m not familiar with that term.</p>
<p>I just think it&#8217;s odd that marriage vows can be set aside at will like that &#8212; that, in effect, man CAN put asunder what God joins together, as long as there&#8217;s a monastery involved. I don&#8217;t understand what a permanent vow can mean in that context.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Michael PS</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/03/01/church-confusion/comment-page-1/#comment-34695</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael PS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Mar 2011 16:28:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=27372#comment-34695</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Pentamon

By the same token, a divorce a mensa et thoro would amount to a dissolution of marriage, but it has always been permitted by the Church.

The indissolubility of marriage means that no second marriage is possible during the first.

Stuart Koehl

You are right to distinguish between the ancient and universal rule that made holy orders and impeciment to marriage and the Latin practice of not ordaining married men to the priesthood.

Until the Reformation, only the Nestorian churches of the Persian empire briefly allowed those in holy orders to marry and the ensuing scandals caused them to abandon it, with priests using their influence as spiritual directors to become the successful suitors of rich widows &amp;c.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pentamon</p>
<p>By the same token, a divorce a mensa et thoro would amount to a dissolution of marriage, but it has always been permitted by the Church.</p>
<p>The indissolubility of marriage means that no second marriage is possible during the first.</p>
<p>Stuart Koehl</p>
<p>You are right to distinguish between the ancient and universal rule that made holy orders and impeciment to marriage and the Latin practice of not ordaining married men to the priesthood.</p>
<p>Until the Reformation, only the Nestorian churches of the Persian empire briefly allowed those in holy orders to marry and the ensuing scandals caused them to abandon it, with priests using their influence as spiritual directors to become the successful suitors of rich widows &amp;c.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: pentamom</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/03/01/church-confusion/comment-page-1/#comment-34687</link>
		<dc:creator>pentamom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Mar 2011 14:56:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=27372#comment-34687</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was assuming they didn&#039;t see it that way, but that&#039;s what it adds up to. I don&#039;t dispute what you say about its probable good intentions, but it&#039;s still inconsistent with the indissolubility of marriage. If two married people deliberately choose to live apart with no contact and no ability or desire to fulfill their marriage vows, they have broken the vows and ended the marriage.

But every age has its blind spots.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was assuming they didn&#8217;t see it that way, but that&#8217;s what it adds up to. I don&#8217;t dispute what you say about its probable good intentions, but it&#8217;s still inconsistent with the indissolubility of marriage. If two married people deliberately choose to live apart with no contact and no ability or desire to fulfill their marriage vows, they have broken the vows and ended the marriage.</p>
<p>But every age has its blind spots.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Stuart Koehl</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/03/01/church-confusion/comment-page-1/#comment-34679</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Koehl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Mar 2011 11:11:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=27372#comment-34679</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;One wonders about the teaching of the indissolubility of marriage in the face of this. It’s okay to divorce in fact if you don’t do it in name?&quot;

I don&#039;t think the Church actually saw it in that light, but rather viewed it as a mutual search for a higher degree of perfection in Christ.  From a practical standpoint, it also offered a degree of security for people in their declining years, since monks and nuns would be fed, clothed and given care even after they could no longer do so for themselves.  It is difficult to make judgments about people who lived in the past unless we can understand their world view and situation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;One wonders about the teaching of the indissolubility of marriage in the face of this. It’s okay to divorce in fact if you don’t do it in name?&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think the Church actually saw it in that light, but rather viewed it as a mutual search for a higher degree of perfection in Christ.  From a practical standpoint, it also offered a degree of security for people in their declining years, since monks and nuns would be fed, clothed and given care even after they could no longer do so for themselves.  It is difficult to make judgments about people who lived in the past unless we can understand their world view and situation.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
