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	<title>Comments on: Tricksy Reductions</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/03/30/tricksy-reductions/</link>
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		<title>By: Bangwell Putt</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/03/30/tricksy-reductions/comment-page-1/#comment-36756</link>
		<dc:creator>Bangwell Putt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Apr 2011 13:01:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=28306#comment-36756</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Markets and Morals,&quot; by Rabbi Jonathan Sacks (First Things, August/September 2000 issue) is an excellent resource for those who might want to better understand why this subject has generated such interest.  

Another resource is the passage from Alasdair MacIntyre&#039;s &quot;After Virtue&quot; previously quoted:  &quot;The cultivation of truthfulness, justice, and courage is a potential stumbling block to becoming rich, powerful, or famous. ... We should therefore expect that if in a particular society the pursuit of external goods were to become dominant, the concept of the virtues might suffer first attrition and then perhaps something near total effacement (although simulacra might abound.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Markets and Morals,&#8221; by Rabbi Jonathan Sacks (First Things, August/September 2000 issue) is an excellent resource for those who might want to better understand why this subject has generated such interest.  </p>
<p>Another resource is the passage from Alasdair MacIntyre&#8217;s &#8220;After Virtue&#8221; previously quoted:  &#8220;The cultivation of truthfulness, justice, and courage is a potential stumbling block to becoming rich, powerful, or famous. &#8230; We should therefore expect that if in a particular society the pursuit of external goods were to become dominant, the concept of the virtues might suffer first attrition and then perhaps something near total effacement (although simulacra might abound.)</p>
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		<title>By: Rob G</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/03/30/tricksy-reductions/comment-page-1/#comment-36749</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Apr 2011 05:28:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=28306#comment-36749</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nicely put, Blake.  

&quot;An alert consumer can never be tricked.&quot;

Really?  Going back to used cars, how many buyers got hosed before CarFax came along?  How about &quot;high fiber&quot; breads which contain wood shavings, sawdust, basically, but which say &quot;cellulose&quot; in the ingredients?  In other words, how alert, exactly, do you have to be?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicely put, Blake.  </p>
<p>&#8220;An alert consumer can never be tricked.&#8221;</p>
<p>Really?  Going back to used cars, how many buyers got hosed before CarFax came along?  How about &#8220;high fiber&#8221; breads which contain wood shavings, sawdust, basically, but which say &#8220;cellulose&#8221; in the ingredients?  In other words, how alert, exactly, do you have to be?</p>
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		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/03/30/tricksy-reductions/comment-page-1/#comment-36740</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Apr 2011 00:16:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=28306#comment-36740</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;An alert consumer can never be tricked.&lt;/i&gt;

Which is why people like David are right to run articles like this one - because word of mouth and loss of reputation are part of what keeps corporations from attempting to mistreat consumers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>An alert consumer can never be tricked.</i></p>
<p>Which is why people like David are right to run articles like this one &#8211; because word of mouth and loss of reputation are part of what keeps corporations from attempting to mistreat consumers.</p>
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		<title>By: Buzz</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/03/30/tricksy-reductions/comment-page-1/#comment-36724</link>
		<dc:creator>Buzz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2011 20:15:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=28306#comment-36724</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Rob G.

Are you implying I&#039;m a liar? If I were to sell you a used car, I&#039;ll tell you exactly what you&#039;re getting, and I&#039;ll let you test drive it. When Del Monte sells me a can of corn, they tell me exactly what&#039;s in it.

By the way, is the manufacturer duplicitous and &quot;tricksy&quot; when he shows the food prepared in optimum fashion, all juicy and delicious, when in fact it&#039;s nothing like that on your plate? Don&#039;t you buy it anyway, knowing that your breaded chicken is not going to come out like in the photo? In a different retail category, what about the company that puts a small widget in a larger box to better catch your eye on the shelf? Or the bright packaging for an everyday product?

Just where does marketing end and &quot;tricksy&quot; begin? 

An alert consumer can never be tricked.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob G.</p>
<p>Are you implying I&#8217;m a liar? If I were to sell you a used car, I&#8217;ll tell you exactly what you&#8217;re getting, and I&#8217;ll let you test drive it. When Del Monte sells me a can of corn, they tell me exactly what&#8217;s in it.</p>
<p>By the way, is the manufacturer duplicitous and &#8220;tricksy&#8221; when he shows the food prepared in optimum fashion, all juicy and delicious, when in fact it&#8217;s nothing like that on your plate? Don&#8217;t you buy it anyway, knowing that your breaded chicken is not going to come out like in the photo? In a different retail category, what about the company that puts a small widget in a larger box to better catch your eye on the shelf? Or the bright packaging for an everyday product?</p>
<p>Just where does marketing end and &#8220;tricksy&#8221; begin? </p>
<p>An alert consumer can never be tricked.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob G</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/03/30/tricksy-reductions/comment-page-1/#comment-36721</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2011 20:02:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=28306#comment-36721</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As I said above, the duplicity lies in doing as much as possible, in a &quot;tricksy&quot; way, to maintain the illusion that the container or whatever has the same amount of product it always did, when it actually doesn&#039;t.  This is in effect capitalizing on the ignorance and/or good faith of the consumer, and as such is morally questionable.

If you disagree, remind me never to buy a used car from you.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I said above, the duplicity lies in doing as much as possible, in a &#8220;tricksy&#8221; way, to maintain the illusion that the container or whatever has the same amount of product it always did, when it actually doesn&#8217;t.  This is in effect capitalizing on the ignorance and/or good faith of the consumer, and as such is morally questionable.</p>
<p>If you disagree, remind me never to buy a used car from you.</p>
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		<title>By: Bangwell Putt</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/03/30/tricksy-reductions/comment-page-1/#comment-36720</link>
		<dc:creator>Bangwell Putt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2011 19:58:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=28306#comment-36720</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re comment from &quot;Buzz&quot;:   The point is that customers and corporations have responsibilities toward one another.  

Yes, the customer must pay attention.  And the corporation must structure packaging to make that as simple as possible.  Every package should not have to be carefully inspected for subtle changes in content.  

But this discussion is about much more than one or two ounces of product and packages designed to hide any difference.  It is about trust and civility among neighbors and fellow citizens including the corporations in matters large and small.  

MacIntyre is making the point that there is more to life than &quot;maximizing profit&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re comment from &#8220;Buzz&#8221;:   The point is that customers and corporations have responsibilities toward one another.  </p>
<p>Yes, the customer must pay attention.  And the corporation must structure packaging to make that as simple as possible.  Every package should not have to be carefully inspected for subtle changes in content.  </p>
<p>But this discussion is about much more than one or two ounces of product and packages designed to hide any difference.  It is about trust and civility among neighbors and fellow citizens including the corporations in matters large and small.  </p>
<p>MacIntyre is making the point that there is more to life than &#8220;maximizing profit&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Buzz</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/03/30/tricksy-reductions/comment-page-1/#comment-36714</link>
		<dc:creator>Buzz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2011 19:02:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=28306#comment-36714</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Rob G

Again what is duplicitous about saying this 5 oz. container of corn contains 5 oz. of corn?

No one will answer the question.

Everyone is upset because they&#039;re careless when they shop and think it&#039;s the manufacturers&#039; fault. I&#039;ve said it once and I&#039;ll keep saying it: stop assuming and start paying attention.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob G</p>
<p>Again what is duplicitous about saying this 5 oz. container of corn contains 5 oz. of corn?</p>
<p>No one will answer the question.</p>
<p>Everyone is upset because they&#8217;re careless when they shop and think it&#8217;s the manufacturers&#8217; fault. I&#8217;ve said it once and I&#8217;ll keep saying it: stop assuming and start paying attention.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob G</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/03/30/tricksy-reductions/comment-page-1/#comment-36712</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2011 18:51:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=28306#comment-36712</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Most of these food producers are publicly owned, and they have a fiduciary duty to their shareholders to maximize profit.&quot;

Yes, even if it requires duplicitous business practices.  When it&#039;s all about the profit, ethics goes out the window.  Big Agra knows all about this, being old hands at it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Most of these food producers are publicly owned, and they have a fiduciary duty to their shareholders to maximize profit.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, even if it requires duplicitous business practices.  When it&#8217;s all about the profit, ethics goes out the window.  Big Agra knows all about this, being old hands at it.</p>
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		<title>By: Buzz</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/03/30/tricksy-reductions/comment-page-1/#comment-36706</link>
		<dc:creator>Buzz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2011 17:45:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=28306#comment-36706</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bangwell Putt

You way overanalyze this. How is it evasive or obfusive to say that this 5 oz. container of corn contains 5 oz. of corn?

As I said earlier, stop assuming and pay attention. Anyone who shops at the store and buys a product without looking at either the volume/weight or the price shouldn&#039;t be the one doing the shopping.

Most of these food producers are publicly owned, and they have a fiduciary duty to their shareholders to maximize profit. That seems to be forgotten in this discussion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bangwell Putt</p>
<p>You way overanalyze this. How is it evasive or obfusive to say that this 5 oz. container of corn contains 5 oz. of corn?</p>
<p>As I said earlier, stop assuming and pay attention. Anyone who shops at the store and buys a product without looking at either the volume/weight or the price shouldn&#8217;t be the one doing the shopping.</p>
<p>Most of these food producers are publicly owned, and they have a fiduciary duty to their shareholders to maximize profit. That seems to be forgotten in this discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: Bangwell Putt</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/03/30/tricksy-reductions/comment-page-1/#comment-36678</link>
		<dc:creator>Bangwell Putt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2011 14:08:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=28306#comment-36678</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;... if in a particular society the pursuit of external goods were to become dominant, the concept of the virtues might suffer first attrition and then perhaps something near total effacement (although simulacra might abound).  

We are still far from &quot;total effacement&quot; of virtue.  The problem though seems to be slow erosion of the idea that virtue matters - even when or even especially in matters involving profit.  

As David Mills was at pains to explain, small things do have consequences.  The damage may seem almost absurdly trivial.  But the fact that this post attracted so much interest shows that it is not.  

Customers are not incapable of understanding need for increases in price.  In the produce department, signs are often posted stating that weather conditions have caused prices to rise.  This indicates respect for the customer&#039;s ability to understand basic economics.  One either pays the increased price or purchases something else.  

When on the other hand a can or container is subtly adjusted to look the same while the amount of product is reduced and when no notice whatsoever is provided, a customer might be forgiven for being surprised.

And when said customer calls and respectfully asks for an explanation and one that would not fool a child is offered, that customer will almost certainly form a different opinion of the company.

Nothing will seem to have changed.  In my particular case, I still purchase Libby&#039;s pumpkin, Tropicana orange juice, etc.  But the former level of trust and a kind of comfort that does matter in human relations has been lost. 

In great matters we do understand and value behavior and speech that is straightforward (&quot;free from evasion or obscurity&quot;).  This is no less important in small matters; no less important that is if we intend to preserve &quot;the cultivation of truthfulness, justice, and courage ... [qualities that are] potential stumbling block[s] to becoming rich, powerful, or famous ...&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230; if in a particular society the pursuit of external goods were to become dominant, the concept of the virtues might suffer first attrition and then perhaps something near total effacement (although simulacra might abound).  </p>
<p>We are still far from &#8220;total effacement&#8221; of virtue.  The problem though seems to be slow erosion of the idea that virtue matters &#8211; even when or even especially in matters involving profit.  </p>
<p>As David Mills was at pains to explain, small things do have consequences.  The damage may seem almost absurdly trivial.  But the fact that this post attracted so much interest shows that it is not.  </p>
<p>Customers are not incapable of understanding need for increases in price.  In the produce department, signs are often posted stating that weather conditions have caused prices to rise.  This indicates respect for the customer&#8217;s ability to understand basic economics.  One either pays the increased price or purchases something else.  </p>
<p>When on the other hand a can or container is subtly adjusted to look the same while the amount of product is reduced and when no notice whatsoever is provided, a customer might be forgiven for being surprised.</p>
<p>And when said customer calls and respectfully asks for an explanation and one that would not fool a child is offered, that customer will almost certainly form a different opinion of the company.</p>
<p>Nothing will seem to have changed.  In my particular case, I still purchase Libby&#8217;s pumpkin, Tropicana orange juice, etc.  But the former level of trust and a kind of comfort that does matter in human relations has been lost. </p>
<p>In great matters we do understand and value behavior and speech that is straightforward (&#8220;free from evasion or obscurity&#8221;).  This is no less important in small matters; no less important that is if we intend to preserve &#8220;the cultivation of truthfulness, justice, and courage &#8230; [qualities that are] potential stumbling block[s] to becoming rich, powerful, or famous &#8230;&#8221;.</p>
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