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	<title>Comments on: The Fastest Growing Christian Denomination in North America</title>
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		<title>By: ChrisG</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/04/07/the-fastest-growing-christian-denomination-in-north-america/comment-page-1/#comment-38359</link>
		<dc:creator>ChrisG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Apr 2011 22:42:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=28585#comment-38359</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[if anybody is still looking at this blog...
Growing up in SDA school system, I was never taught anything about jews in Spain being conected to hispanics in America.  There is a belief amongst LDS or mormans that some native americans were decendents of a lost jewish tribe, perhaps that is where that rumor came from.

The SDA growth in amongst hispanics in N. America is probably more about increasing population than anything else.  SDA is a larger movement outside the US than in the US if measured by member numbers.

Sabbath or Saturday keeping is the 4th commandment if you&#039;re someone who is concerned with keeping God&#039;s law keep it all, why pick and choose.  

I also believe from my past studies that there is historical evidence of Constatine the Byzentine Emperor making Sunday the official day of worship for Christians.

As far as nit picking at flaws and misguided movements, every religion has some embarrassing moments in its history.

The most important thing is getting to know Christ,  dieing to self, having a change of character, asking for the power of the holy spirit to enable us to be Christ like.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>if anybody is still looking at this blog&#8230;<br />
Growing up in SDA school system, I was never taught anything about jews in Spain being conected to hispanics in America.  There is a belief amongst LDS or mormans that some native americans were decendents of a lost jewish tribe, perhaps that is where that rumor came from.</p>
<p>The SDA growth in amongst hispanics in N. America is probably more about increasing population than anything else.  SDA is a larger movement outside the US than in the US if measured by member numbers.</p>
<p>Sabbath or Saturday keeping is the 4th commandment if you&#8217;re someone who is concerned with keeping God&#8217;s law keep it all, why pick and choose.  </p>
<p>I also believe from my past studies that there is historical evidence of Constatine the Byzentine Emperor making Sunday the official day of worship for Christians.</p>
<p>As far as nit picking at flaws and misguided movements, every religion has some embarrassing moments in its history.</p>
<p>The most important thing is getting to know Christ,  dieing to self, having a change of character, asking for the power of the holy spirit to enable us to be Christ like.</p>
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		<title>By: Hal Dudney</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/04/07/the-fastest-growing-christian-denomination-in-north-america/comment-page-1/#comment-38356</link>
		<dc:creator>Hal Dudney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Apr 2011 16:21:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=28585#comment-38356</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If all of you christians would study the ten commandments and follow them you would end up an adventist. The truth is most of you don&#039;t even know why you go to church on sunday. I will tell you it is because of a roman ruler in 321 A.D. named Constantine that wanted to create revenue for the church and reach out to the pagan &quot;SUN&quot; worshipers, so he compromised the day and changed it for money. So not honoring Sabbath is breaking the fourth commandment. Jesus wants a remnant read Rev 12:17. God bless.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If all of you christians would study the ten commandments and follow them you would end up an adventist. The truth is most of you don&#8217;t even know why you go to church on sunday. I will tell you it is because of a roman ruler in 321 A.D. named Constantine that wanted to create revenue for the church and reach out to the pagan &#8220;SUN&#8221; worshipers, so he compromised the day and changed it for money. So not honoring Sabbath is breaking the fourth commandment. Jesus wants a remnant read Rev 12:17. God bless.</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis Murphy</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/04/07/the-fastest-growing-christian-denomination-in-north-america/comment-page-1/#comment-37364</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis Murphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Apr 2011 13:11:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=28585#comment-37364</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Brianwood -- Adventists hold some beliefs that most Christians disagree with, but not the &#039;basic&#039; beliefs of orthodox Christianity, which I think are those about salvation by God&#039;s grace, through faith in Jesus as Savior and Lord.  We would disagree that the Calvinist beliefs you identified (election, limited atonement, etc) constitute essential Christian belief.

Gail F -- no insult taken, at least not yet.  William Miller and his followers were serious Christians, not fanatics.  They were mistaken in an aspect of Bible prophecy that they took seriously, i.e. that Jesus was returning on a specific date in 1844.  When that prediction failed, those believers went all kinds of directions, but some of them were convicted that God was involved in the movement in spite of their mistake about prophecy.  They continued studying their Bibles and eventually came together to form the Adventist church about 20 years later.  Mr Miller was not a founder in any way, and in fact never joined them and didn&#039;t accept their Sabbath belief.  We still view William Miller as an honest servant of God who went as far as he could in following God&#039;s word.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brianwood &#8212; Adventists hold some beliefs that most Christians disagree with, but not the &#8216;basic&#8217; beliefs of orthodox Christianity, which I think are those about salvation by God&#8217;s grace, through faith in Jesus as Savior and Lord.  We would disagree that the Calvinist beliefs you identified (election, limited atonement, etc) constitute essential Christian belief.</p>
<p>Gail F &#8212; no insult taken, at least not yet.  William Miller and his followers were serious Christians, not fanatics.  They were mistaken in an aspect of Bible prophecy that they took seriously, i.e. that Jesus was returning on a specific date in 1844.  When that prediction failed, those believers went all kinds of directions, but some of them were convicted that God was involved in the movement in spite of their mistake about prophecy.  They continued studying their Bibles and eventually came together to form the Adventist church about 20 years later.  Mr Miller was not a founder in any way, and in fact never joined them and didn&#8217;t accept their Sabbath belief.  We still view William Miller as an honest servant of God who went as far as he could in following God&#8217;s word.</p>
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		<title>By: Brianwood</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/04/07/the-fastest-growing-christian-denomination-in-north-america/comment-page-1/#comment-37352</link>
		<dc:creator>Brianwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Apr 2011 22:21:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=28585#comment-37352</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I believe SDA rejects some basic orthodox christian doctrines (election, limited atonement for those who believe in &#039;perseverance of believers&#039;), and purport that a christian may lose their salvation if they are unrepentantly &#039;naughty&#039; and disregard the law in general, of which it seems there are plenty of warnings about in scripture.  Other than that, their views regarding soul sleep, annihalation in lake of fire (hell itself is finally discharged to the lake of fire,[&#039;smoke goes up forever in my understanding refers only to a judgment which can&#039;t be reversed, not eternal time, and the soul that sinneth it will die]) and the emphasis on practicing a day of rest on the old sabbath (seventh day) seem to be very scriptural, although refuted by orthodox sunday christians, in twists of scripture and added punctuations.  Although I am orthodox and &#039;calvinist&#039;, I know extremely few sunday christians who practice any form of a day of rest, and never on sunday, since it is a busy &#039;church day&#039;.  I thank God he is sovereign and he alone will judge us all and our doctrinal nuances, that we all seem to pull from the same scriptures, as we have been taught.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe SDA rejects some basic orthodox christian doctrines (election, limited atonement for those who believe in &#8216;perseverance of believers&#8217;), and purport that a christian may lose their salvation if they are unrepentantly &#8216;naughty&#8217; and disregard the law in general, of which it seems there are plenty of warnings about in scripture.  Other than that, their views regarding soul sleep, annihalation in lake of fire (hell itself is finally discharged to the lake of fire,['smoke goes up forever in my understanding refers only to a judgment which can't be reversed, not eternal time, and the soul that sinneth it will die]) and the emphasis on practicing a day of rest on the old sabbath (seventh day) seem to be very scriptural, although refuted by orthodox sunday christians, in twists of scripture and added punctuations.  Although I am orthodox and &#8216;calvinist&#8217;, I know extremely few sunday christians who practice any form of a day of rest, and never on sunday, since it is a busy &#8216;church day&#8217;.  I thank God he is sovereign and he alone will judge us all and our doctrinal nuances, that we all seem to pull from the same scriptures, as we have been taught.</p>
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		<title>By: Gail F</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/04/07/the-fastest-growing-christian-denomination-in-north-america/comment-page-1/#comment-37323</link>
		<dc:creator>Gail F</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Apr 2011 03:18:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=28585#comment-37323</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dennis and Bill: SDA came from the Millerites, right? I do not mean to insult you personally by my opinion, but I find it hard to take a church that developed out of the Millerites seriously, just as I cannot take seriously a church whose founder supposedly got its scripture from a golden book that an angel showed him and then took away again. What do you think of the Millerites and how does your church account for them? Or is the case, as is typical in so many Protestant churches, that what the founders did and said don&#039;t matter to the current adherents?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dennis and Bill: SDA came from the Millerites, right? I do not mean to insult you personally by my opinion, but I find it hard to take a church that developed out of the Millerites seriously, just as I cannot take seriously a church whose founder supposedly got its scripture from a golden book that an angel showed him and then took away again. What do you think of the Millerites and how does your church account for them? Or is the case, as is typical in so many Protestant churches, that what the founders did and said don&#8217;t matter to the current adherents?</p>
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		<title>By: No Blog is an Island &#8211; 4.8.11 &#171; Nate Navigates the Bible</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/04/07/the-fastest-growing-christian-denomination-in-north-america/comment-page-1/#comment-37291</link>
		<dc:creator>No Blog is an Island &#8211; 4.8.11 &#171; Nate Navigates the Bible</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Apr 2011 20:12:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=28585#comment-37291</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Joe Carter links to a piece in USA today that identifies the fastest growing Christian denomination in the country as Seventh Day Adventists, another sign of the growing popularity of legalist faith in our culture. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Joe Carter links to a piece in USA today that identifies the fastest growing Christian denomination in the country as Seventh Day Adventists, another sign of the growing popularity of legalist faith in our culture. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/04/07/the-fastest-growing-christian-denomination-in-north-america/comment-page-1/#comment-37289</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Apr 2011 19:58:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=28585#comment-37289</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ Dennis Murphy,

I am a second generation Hispanic SDA member. I have never heard of anything as absurd as using Jewish ancestry or bloodlines, if you will, to recruit Latinos/Hispanics. What I have witnessed however in my 40 years of Adventism is that Catholics are disillusioned with not having a personal relationship with God. Some have sought a definitive way of being with God, loving God, and witnessing for God that is absent of the ritualistic foundations of Cat holism. 

Furthermore, liberation theology that you espoused is the bases for the influx of Hispanics into the SDA church has its inception with the Jesuit order; and certainly not part of the SDA church. If you want to speak of eschatology, than frankly speaking, in the &quot;last days&quot; which I certainly agree that we are in, holy writ states that there will be a remnant who keeps the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ (Rev 12:17). 

People of all persuasions are coming out of churches and finding the SDA church and not just Latinos. Yes, it is indeed interesting!!

There are only two major religious movements in the world, where its churches can be considered global and thriving - the Catholic Church and the SDA. Both can not be right as one is a total antithesis of the other; the dicothomy could not be more astounding! This begs the question, which movement is God helping?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Dennis Murphy,</p>
<p>I am a second generation Hispanic SDA member. I have never heard of anything as absurd as using Jewish ancestry or bloodlines, if you will, to recruit Latinos/Hispanics. What I have witnessed however in my 40 years of Adventism is that Catholics are disillusioned with not having a personal relationship with God. Some have sought a definitive way of being with God, loving God, and witnessing for God that is absent of the ritualistic foundations of Cat holism. </p>
<p>Furthermore, liberation theology that you espoused is the bases for the influx of Hispanics into the SDA church has its inception with the Jesuit order; and certainly not part of the SDA church. If you want to speak of eschatology, than frankly speaking, in the &#8220;last days&#8221; which I certainly agree that we are in, holy writ states that there will be a remnant who keeps the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ (Rev 12:17). </p>
<p>People of all persuasions are coming out of churches and finding the SDA church and not just Latinos. Yes, it is indeed interesting!!</p>
<p>There are only two major religious movements in the world, where its churches can be considered global and thriving &#8211; the Catholic Church and the SDA. Both can not be right as one is a total antithesis of the other; the dicothomy could not be more astounding! This begs the question, which movement is God helping?</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis Murphy</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/04/07/the-fastest-growing-christian-denomination-in-north-america/comment-page-1/#comment-37266</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis Murphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Apr 2011 16:51:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=28585#comment-37266</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[G.K. Chesterton -- (are you related to THE Chesterton?)  ;-)

I couldn&#039;t estimate how large the &quot;falling out&quot; was, but I remember the controversies about the Heavenly Sanctuary and etc.  I think they started in the early 80s and lasted several years.  Factions still persist, of course.

I probably can&#039;t speak accurately about it without a lot of research and text space.  I think a key part of the controversy was Christ&#039;s continuing ministry in the sanctuary in heaven, especially the change of ministry that we associate with Daniel&#039;s 2300-day prophecy, versus the popular Christian concept that Christ&#039;s sacrifice on the cross was the total, complete offering for our salvation and nothing more should be needed.  I think the church&#039;s settled position is that His sacrifice was the complete, one-time offering for all sinners, but the *application* of that sacrifice to our own lives remains and is what Jesus does for us in the Father&#039;s presence in heaven.  There was also the issue of just how closely the two-compartment sanctuary ministry of the Old Testament compared to Jesus&#039; work in heaven, and whether Jesus did or didn&#039;t enter into God&#039;s presence before the end of the 2300 days.  I think that has settled with church members not being so strictly literal in matching details of the earthly sanctuary with operations in heaven.

I&#039;m not sure if I answered your question, but I hope this is helpful.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>G.K. Chesterton &#8212; (are you related to THE Chesterton?)  ;-)</p>
<p>I couldn&#8217;t estimate how large the &#8220;falling out&#8221; was, but I remember the controversies about the Heavenly Sanctuary and etc.  I think they started in the early 80s and lasted several years.  Factions still persist, of course.</p>
<p>I probably can&#8217;t speak accurately about it without a lot of research and text space.  I think a key part of the controversy was Christ&#8217;s continuing ministry in the sanctuary in heaven, especially the change of ministry that we associate with Daniel&#8217;s 2300-day prophecy, versus the popular Christian concept that Christ&#8217;s sacrifice on the cross was the total, complete offering for our salvation and nothing more should be needed.  I think the church&#8217;s settled position is that His sacrifice was the complete, one-time offering for all sinners, but the *application* of that sacrifice to our own lives remains and is what Jesus does for us in the Father&#8217;s presence in heaven.  There was also the issue of just how closely the two-compartment sanctuary ministry of the Old Testament compared to Jesus&#8217; work in heaven, and whether Jesus did or didn&#8217;t enter into God&#8217;s presence before the end of the 2300 days.  I think that has settled with church members not being so strictly literal in matching details of the earthly sanctuary with operations in heaven.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure if I answered your question, but I hope this is helpful.</p>
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		<title>By: pentamom</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/04/07/the-fastest-growing-christian-denomination-in-north-america/comment-page-1/#comment-37265</link>
		<dc:creator>pentamom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Apr 2011 16:47:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=28585#comment-37265</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dennis, I know you weren&#039;t challenging. It&#039;s just that I was uncomfortable with posting something and then not being able to back it up with any details or a link. At the same time, I wanted to affirm that what I wrote came from a credible source, it&#039;s just that I can&#039;t recall it. And I won&#039;t quibble of what significance was attached to their purported Jewishess, I just recall that there was *some.*]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dennis, I know you weren&#8217;t challenging. It&#8217;s just that I was uncomfortable with posting something and then not being able to back it up with any details or a link. At the same time, I wanted to affirm that what I wrote came from a credible source, it&#8217;s just that I can&#8217;t recall it. And I won&#8217;t quibble of what significance was attached to their purported Jewishess, I just recall that there was *some.*</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis Murphy</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/04/07/the-fastest-growing-christian-denomination-in-north-america/comment-page-1/#comment-37264</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis Murphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Apr 2011 16:27:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=28585#comment-37264</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Pentamom -- I didn&#039;t mean to challenge what you wrote.  I had just never heard of it.  The link between Hispanics of the Southwest to ancient Jews in Spain seems plausible.  I found an article about them in Smithsonian magazine (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/san-luis-valley.html), to name one source.
I suppose some Adventists could have used the idea as part of local evangelistic appeals to people in that culture, but I&#039;d be surprised to find it in any of our mainstream publications.
  
There is a special sensitivity Adventists feel toward Jews, since we share the 7th day Sabbath, some diet principles, and a reverence for God&#039;s law in general.  There is a sub-culture of Adventist Jews, similar to Jews for Jesus in the wider Christian community, and most Adventists probably expect Jews&#039; acceptance of Jesus to increase as part of end-time events, but I don&#039;t think many see special eschatological significance in whether or not an individual has Jewish ancestry.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pentamom &#8212; I didn&#8217;t mean to challenge what you wrote.  I had just never heard of it.  The link between Hispanics of the Southwest to ancient Jews in Spain seems plausible.  I found an article about them in Smithsonian magazine (<a href="http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/san-luis-valley.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/san-luis-valley.html</a>), to name one source.<br />
I suppose some Adventists could have used the idea as part of local evangelistic appeals to people in that culture, but I&#8217;d be surprised to find it in any of our mainstream publications.</p>
<p>There is a special sensitivity Adventists feel toward Jews, since we share the 7th day Sabbath, some diet principles, and a reverence for God&#8217;s law in general.  There is a sub-culture of Adventist Jews, similar to Jews for Jesus in the wider Christian community, and most Adventists probably expect Jews&#8217; acceptance of Jesus to increase as part of end-time events, but I don&#8217;t think many see special eschatological significance in whether or not an individual has Jewish ancestry.</p>
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