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	<title>Comments on: Is the Pro-Life Cause Winning?</title>
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		<title>By: TXW</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/05/18/is-the-pro-life-cause-winning/comment-page-1/#comment-41568</link>
		<dc:creator>TXW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 May 2011 04:59:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=30129#comment-41568</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[HCG is still there, it depends on the sensitivity of the test.  Regardless if it is hCG or Kool Aid or corn syrup that is tested, the measure of a chemical is not a valid litmus for personhood or the definition of the begining of pregnancy.
Years ago, and in some modern dictatorships, toddlers and babies had extremely high mortality rates.  It is, in fact, an old question; CS Lewis at least touched on this when he wrote that God takes children because of love, and that if we are lucky enough to make it past childhood, God surely must want us to do something.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HCG is still there, it depends on the sensitivity of the test.  Regardless if it is hCG or Kool Aid or corn syrup that is tested, the measure of a chemical is not a valid litmus for personhood or the definition of the begining of pregnancy.<br />
Years ago, and in some modern dictatorships, toddlers and babies had extremely high mortality rates.  It is, in fact, an old question; CS Lewis at least touched on this when he wrote that God takes children because of love, and that if we are lucky enough to make it past childhood, God surely must want us to do something.</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/05/18/is-the-pro-life-cause-winning/comment-page-1/#comment-41189</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 May 2011 21:28:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=30129#comment-41189</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[TWX,

I will try to answer in more detail later, but hCG can only be detected in a women&#039;s blood &lt;i&gt;after&lt;/i&gt; implantation. The hCG has to have a way to make it into the blood, and it can&#039;t get there before the early embryo has implanted and connected directly with the mother&#039;s circulatory system.

I never said that because an embryo does not implant, it is not a person. What I did say is that &lt;i&gt;if&lt;/i&gt; it is a person, most people die in their first few days of life. There is a theological question as to why the majority of people conceived would never be born. It does not mean that an early embryo is not a person, although some would argue that it would not make sense for God to design the human reproductive system so that most persons who were conceived died within a few days. For Christians, this means they can never be baptized. For &lt;i&gt;some&lt;/i&gt; Christians, who believe explicit recognition of Jesus as one&#039;s personal savior is necessary for salvation, it means most people conceived go to hell. For Catholics, it means the fate of most persons is totally unknown, since the Church has no explanation to what happens to those who die before birth.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TWX,</p>
<p>I will try to answer in more detail later, but hCG can only be detected in a women&#8217;s blood <i>after</i> implantation. The hCG has to have a way to make it into the blood, and it can&#8217;t get there before the early embryo has implanted and connected directly with the mother&#8217;s circulatory system.</p>
<p>I never said that because an embryo does not implant, it is not a person. What I did say is that <i>if</i> it is a person, most people die in their first few days of life. There is a theological question as to why the majority of people conceived would never be born. It does not mean that an early embryo is not a person, although some would argue that it would not make sense for God to design the human reproductive system so that most persons who were conceived died within a few days. For Christians, this means they can never be baptized. For <i>some</i> Christians, who believe explicit recognition of Jesus as one&#8217;s personal savior is necessary for salvation, it means most people conceived go to hell. For Catholics, it means the fate of most persons is totally unknown, since the Church has no explanation to what happens to those who die before birth.</p>
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		<title>By: TXW</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/05/18/is-the-pro-life-cause-winning/comment-page-1/#comment-41183</link>
		<dc:creator>TXW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 May 2011 19:05:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=30129#comment-41183</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[beta-Human chorionic gonadotropin can be measured in the urine or serum.  The fertilized egg starts emiting this before implantation and the positive results depend on the sensitivity of the test (serum being more sensitive). Pregnancy tests are not an implantation test, it is just that the levels of hCG are higher at implantation than before.  As you describe, implantation is an event, a description of a location, along the continuum of life.  If your 80% estimates are true (it is commonly accepted to be 50% but Hilger&#039;s research has found that not to be so high, plus you have to separate out the IVF cases from natural pregnancies), that doesn&#039;t change the status of personhood.  If 80% of the so-called persons on the slave ships died en route, then why abolish slavery? 
Some women want to confirm pregnancy early on so steps can be taken not to lose the baby. Such as progesterone suppositories, hCG injections, etc.  Again, Hilgers has over 25 years of research on this.
The ACOG and friends will fight tooth and nail over the semantics of implantation, because the stakes are so high for the contraception crowd; those pesky conscience clauses and all that.  The line is drawn at implantation, more than other events on the continuum, because of the mechanism of a pharmaceutical.  It is an issue of language, not science.  Whether or not fertilization creates a person is a matter of philosophy.  Whether or not fertilization creates a new biological creature is a matter of science.  Implantation is an event, like birth, like puberty, like menopause.  It is as absurd to take any one of those events and declare a new threshhold for personhood.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>beta-Human chorionic gonadotropin can be measured in the urine or serum.  The fertilized egg starts emiting this before implantation and the positive results depend on the sensitivity of the test (serum being more sensitive). Pregnancy tests are not an implantation test, it is just that the levels of hCG are higher at implantation than before.  As you describe, implantation is an event, a description of a location, along the continuum of life.  If your 80% estimates are true (it is commonly accepted to be 50% but Hilger&#8217;s research has found that not to be so high, plus you have to separate out the IVF cases from natural pregnancies), that doesn&#8217;t change the status of personhood.  If 80% of the so-called persons on the slave ships died en route, then why abolish slavery?<br />
Some women want to confirm pregnancy early on so steps can be taken not to lose the baby. Such as progesterone suppositories, hCG injections, etc.  Again, Hilgers has over 25 years of research on this.<br />
The ACOG and friends will fight tooth and nail over the semantics of implantation, because the stakes are so high for the contraception crowd; those pesky conscience clauses and all that.  The line is drawn at implantation, more than other events on the continuum, because of the mechanism of a pharmaceutical.  It is an issue of language, not science.  Whether or not fertilization creates a person is a matter of philosophy.  Whether or not fertilization creates a new biological creature is a matter of science.  Implantation is an event, like birth, like puberty, like menopause.  It is as absurd to take any one of those events and declare a new threshhold for personhood.</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/05/18/is-the-pro-life-cause-winning/comment-page-1/#comment-41112</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 May 2011 16:22:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=30129#comment-41112</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Is this in contrast to the “latest” time of implantation or something?&lt;/i&gt;

TWX,

The answer to your first question is &lt;i&gt;yes&lt;/i&gt;. Implantation is the process during which the developing embryo burrows into the wall of the uterus, and that takes about 48 hours to complete successfully. (About half of the time, it fails.) So it makes perfect sense to say &quot;prior to the earliest time of implantation.&quot; 

&lt;i&gt;But in the same paragraph it says EC acts sometimes by inhibiting implantation.&lt;/i&gt;

No, actually it says, &quot;In addition, it may inhibit implantation (by altering the endometrium).&quot; This is not a statement that some of the time, Plan B works by inhibiting implantation. It is a statement that one of the mechanisms by which the drug works &lt;i&gt;may&lt;/i&gt; be (not is) by inhibiting implantation. It means that inhibiting implantation also may &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; be one of the mechanisms by which the drug works.  Nobody is really sure.

&lt;i&gt;Simply put, if a pregnancy test is positive before implantation, does the Federation, ACOG, AMA, or some other collection of 3 button suits tell the woman she is not pregnant?&lt;/i&gt;

Pregnancy tests are negative if an egg has been fertilized but has not implanted. The pregnancy tests used today measure a hormone in the woman&#039;s body that is present only if implantation has taken place. So when a woman undergoes a &quot;pregnancy&quot; test, it is really an &lt;i&gt;implantation test.&lt;/i&gt; This is one reason why it makes sense to consider pregnancy as beginning with implantation. It is easily measured. Another reason is that if you consider a woman pregnant at the time of conception, there is up to an 80% chance (estimates vary) that she will lose the &quot;baby.&quot; Most early embryos do not successfully implant. Why would one want to confirm fertilization when 80% of the time there will be no implantation and no possibility of a baby developing? 

The fact is that if you consider successful fertilization to be the beginning of a new human person, the majority of &quot;people&quot; do not live more than a week or ten days.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Is this in contrast to the “latest” time of implantation or something?</i></p>
<p>TWX,</p>
<p>The answer to your first question is <i>yes</i>. Implantation is the process during which the developing embryo burrows into the wall of the uterus, and that takes about 48 hours to complete successfully. (About half of the time, it fails.) So it makes perfect sense to say &#8220;prior to the earliest time of implantation.&#8221; </p>
<p><i>But in the same paragraph it says EC acts sometimes by inhibiting implantation.</i></p>
<p>No, actually it says, &#8220;In addition, it may inhibit implantation (by altering the endometrium).&#8221; This is not a statement that some of the time, Plan B works by inhibiting implantation. It is a statement that one of the mechanisms by which the drug works <i>may</i> be (not is) by inhibiting implantation. It means that inhibiting implantation also may <i>not</i> be one of the mechanisms by which the drug works.  Nobody is really sure.</p>
<p><i>Simply put, if a pregnancy test is positive before implantation, does the Federation, ACOG, AMA, or some other collection of 3 button suits tell the woman she is not pregnant?</i></p>
<p>Pregnancy tests are negative if an egg has been fertilized but has not implanted. The pregnancy tests used today measure a hormone in the woman&#8217;s body that is present only if implantation has taken place. So when a woman undergoes a &#8220;pregnancy&#8221; test, it is really an <i>implantation test.</i> This is one reason why it makes sense to consider pregnancy as beginning with implantation. It is easily measured. Another reason is that if you consider a woman pregnant at the time of conception, there is up to an 80% chance (estimates vary) that she will lose the &#8220;baby.&#8221; Most early embryos do not successfully implant. Why would one want to confirm fertilization when 80% of the time there will be no implantation and no possibility of a baby developing? </p>
<p>The fact is that if you consider successful fertilization to be the beginning of a new human person, the majority of &#8220;people&#8221; do not live more than a week or ten days.</p>
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		<title>By: TXW</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/05/18/is-the-pro-life-cause-winning/comment-page-1/#comment-41062</link>
		<dc:creator>TXW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 May 2011 03:07:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=30129#comment-41062</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David Nickol,
I suggest you look for the evidence in the publications of the Catholic Medical Asso. or NCBC.  The various committees and federations have been trying to change the definition of pregnancy for just this reason--they know about the pre-implantation effects.  The Wikipedia excerpt if a great example of the misuses of the the language--the Federation has carefully not said that EC acts to prevent implantation, it says it acts [sometimes] &quot;prior to the earliest time of implantation&quot;. Is this in contrast to the &quot;latest&quot; time of implantation or something?  What is being implanted, a watermelon seed?   Simply put, if a pregnancy test is positive before implantation, does the Federation, ACOG, AMA, or some other collection of 3 button suits tell the woman she is not pregnant?  
Likewise, the packaging insert was written by Orwell.  If pregnancy starts at implantation, then of course you can&#039;t call it an abortifacient.  But in the same paragraph it says EC acts sometimes by inhibiting implantation.  This changes the gestational time of Homo sapiens.  A paradigm shift, ahoy! Will women shout &quot;Honey, I&#039;m pregnant!&quot; or Honey, I&#039;m implanted!&quot;  
If the mechanism of action worked at the time of placental attachment instead, would the definition of pregnancy change again? Who is on that committee?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Nickol,<br />
I suggest you look for the evidence in the publications of the Catholic Medical Asso. or NCBC.  The various committees and federations have been trying to change the definition of pregnancy for just this reason&#8211;they know about the pre-implantation effects.  The Wikipedia excerpt if a great example of the misuses of the the language&#8211;the Federation has carefully not said that EC acts to prevent implantation, it says it acts [sometimes] &#8220;prior to the earliest time of implantation&#8221;. Is this in contrast to the &#8220;latest&#8221; time of implantation or something?  What is being implanted, a watermelon seed?   Simply put, if a pregnancy test is positive before implantation, does the Federation, ACOG, AMA, or some other collection of 3 button suits tell the woman she is not pregnant?<br />
Likewise, the packaging insert was written by Orwell.  If pregnancy starts at implantation, then of course you can&#8217;t call it an abortifacient.  But in the same paragraph it says EC acts sometimes by inhibiting implantation.  This changes the gestational time of Homo sapiens.  A paradigm shift, ahoy! Will women shout &#8220;Honey, I&#8217;m pregnant!&#8221; or Honey, I&#8217;m implanted!&#8221;<br />
If the mechanism of action worked at the time of placental attachment instead, would the definition of pregnancy change again? Who is on that committee?</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/05/18/is-the-pro-life-cause-winning/comment-page-1/#comment-40964</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 May 2011 14:42:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=30129#comment-40964</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gregory K. Laughlin and Jeremy,

First, Plan B and the pill both work primarily by preventing ovulation. They also seem to work against fertilization if ovulation has already occurred. There is no definitive proof that Plan B (or, I believe, the pill) prevents implantation. 

Here&#039;s the pertinent statement from the packaging:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Emergency contraceptives are not effective if the woman is already pregnant. Plan B® is believed to act as an emergency contraceptive principally by preventing ovulation or fertilization (by altering tubal transport of sperm and/or ova). In addition, it may inhibit implantation (by altering the endometrium). It is not effective once the process of implantation has begun.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Wikipedia tells us:

&lt;blockquote&gt;According to the International Federation of Gynecology and Obstetrics, &quot;EC [emergency contraception] is not an abortifacient because it has its effect prior to the earliest time of implantation.&quot; EC was once thought to have a possible post-fertilization effect on implantation of a blastocyst, a type of contraception which is sometimes referred to as a contragestive. However, the current scientific consensus is that this mechanism is extremely unlikely. EC acts to prevent pregnancy, and is therefore distinct from medical abortion methods that act after implantation.&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gregory K. Laughlin and Jeremy,</p>
<p>First, Plan B and the pill both work primarily by preventing ovulation. They also seem to work against fertilization if ovulation has already occurred. There is no definitive proof that Plan B (or, I believe, the pill) prevents implantation. </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the pertinent statement from the packaging:</p>
<blockquote><p>Emergency contraceptives are not effective if the woman is already pregnant. Plan B® is believed to act as an emergency contraceptive principally by preventing ovulation or fertilization (by altering tubal transport of sperm and/or ova). In addition, it may inhibit implantation (by altering the endometrium). It is not effective once the process of implantation has begun.</p></blockquote>
<p>Wikipedia tells us:</p>
<blockquote><p>According to the International Federation of Gynecology and Obstetrics, &#8220;EC [emergency contraception] is not an abortifacient because it has its effect prior to the earliest time of implantation.&#8221; EC was once thought to have a possible post-fertilization effect on implantation of a blastocyst, a type of contraception which is sometimes referred to as a contragestive. However, the current scientific consensus is that this mechanism is extremely unlikely. EC acts to prevent pregnancy, and is therefore distinct from medical abortion methods that act after implantation.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/05/18/is-the-pro-life-cause-winning/comment-page-1/#comment-40944</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 May 2011 12:23:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=30129#comment-40944</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In addition to Plan B, it should also be noted that the ordinary birth control pill can stop a fertilised egg from implanting.  This is technically a form of abortion.  Oral contraceptives have been used by 80% of women in the USA at some point in their lives.  With better education on how to use the pill, it&#039;s probably likely that they are never having to have abortions.   However, if you believe a fertilised egg is a person, then the abortion rate is substantially higher than it is being reported.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In addition to Plan B, it should also be noted that the ordinary birth control pill can stop a fertilised egg from implanting.  This is technically a form of abortion.  Oral contraceptives have been used by 80% of women in the USA at some point in their lives.  With better education on how to use the pill, it&#8217;s probably likely that they are never having to have abortions.   However, if you believe a fertilised egg is a person, then the abortion rate is substantially higher than it is being reported.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard M</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/05/18/is-the-pro-life-cause-winning/comment-page-1/#comment-40910</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 May 2011 23:19:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=30129#comment-40910</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think Mr. Wax overstates the case for the pro-life advance, and cites some questionable items by way of support.  

And yet I think there is a sense that the cause of life has been making some slow, incremental advance.  Just looking at public surveys, political discourse, and abortion rates, it seems likely that support for abortion peaked around 1990 - about when the baby boom generation was really coming into its own as the mature driving demographic force in the country. Since then, reservations about abortion have been creeping back up, as manifested in lower abortion rates, higher public self-identification as pro-life, and an increasing raft of abortion restriction legislation (enacted and proposed) in many states.

Why so?  Ultrasounds definitely play a big role.  So does medical technology, as it pushes back the threshold of viability. The fact that pro-life families are more likely to reproduce themselves. And what we see in the media, as in films like Juno may be a reaction to that rather than a cause.  Perhaps the country is not quite ready to ban abortion outright, but in most states it seems quite willing to restrict it a great deal more than is currently the case.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Mr. Wax overstates the case for the pro-life advance, and cites some questionable items by way of support.  </p>
<p>And yet I think there is a sense that the cause of life has been making some slow, incremental advance.  Just looking at public surveys, political discourse, and abortion rates, it seems likely that support for abortion peaked around 1990 &#8211; about when the baby boom generation was really coming into its own as the mature driving demographic force in the country. Since then, reservations about abortion have been creeping back up, as manifested in lower abortion rates, higher public self-identification as pro-life, and an increasing raft of abortion restriction legislation (enacted and proposed) in many states.</p>
<p>Why so?  Ultrasounds definitely play a big role.  So does medical technology, as it pushes back the threshold of viability. The fact that pro-life families are more likely to reproduce themselves. And what we see in the media, as in films like Juno may be a reaction to that rather than a cause.  Perhaps the country is not quite ready to ban abortion outright, but in most states it seems quite willing to restrict it a great deal more than is currently the case.</p>
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		<title>By: Gregory K. Laughlin</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/05/18/is-the-pro-life-cause-winning/comment-page-1/#comment-40905</link>
		<dc:creator>Gregory K. Laughlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 May 2011 22:22:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=30129#comment-40905</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wish I believed your points, but you left out one really big one:  more and more abortions take place without anyone ever knowing about it.  Plan-B, morning after, emergency &quot;contraception&quot;, or whatever you want to call it permits abortion to be chemically engineered and never recorded.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish I believed your points, but you left out one really big one:  more and more abortions take place without anyone ever knowing about it.  Plan-B, morning after, emergency &#8220;contraception&#8221;, or whatever you want to call it permits abortion to be chemically engineered and never recorded.</p>
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		<title>By: carl</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/05/18/is-the-pro-life-cause-winning/comment-page-1/#comment-40869</link>
		<dc:creator>carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 May 2011 17:33:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=30129#comment-40869</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The ultimate purpose of the sexual revolution was to sever the connections between sex and marriage and children, so that personal gratification could be established as the primary purpose of sex.  Abortion is the ultimate guarantor of that revolution.  It is the means by which women are enabled to behave as men behave, and free themselves from the &#039;tyranny of biology.&#039;  In the absense of abortion, the burdens of the sexual revolution will lean heavy upon women, and they will start to assert the old constraints.  So long as the sexual revolution remains established in the culture, abortion will remain sacrosanct.

People are fiddling with the limits of when an abortion may be performed.  What they are not doing is challenging the central logic of abortion itself.  They have not suddenly decided that an unborn child has intrinsic human worth from conception.  They are not repudiating the idea that an unborn child acquires human worth only after some period of development.  This is an objective good in that it reduces the number of abortions being performed, but it does not constitute &#039;victory.&#039;  It means we are becomeing more sophisticated and nuanced and selective in the destruction of our own chidlren.  

carl]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The ultimate purpose of the sexual revolution was to sever the connections between sex and marriage and children, so that personal gratification could be established as the primary purpose of sex.  Abortion is the ultimate guarantor of that revolution.  It is the means by which women are enabled to behave as men behave, and free themselves from the &#8216;tyranny of biology.&#8217;  In the absense of abortion, the burdens of the sexual revolution will lean heavy upon women, and they will start to assert the old constraints.  So long as the sexual revolution remains established in the culture, abortion will remain sacrosanct.</p>
<p>People are fiddling with the limits of when an abortion may be performed.  What they are not doing is challenging the central logic of abortion itself.  They have not suddenly decided that an unborn child has intrinsic human worth from conception.  They are not repudiating the idea that an unborn child acquires human worth only after some period of development.  This is an objective good in that it reduces the number of abortions being performed, but it does not constitute &#8216;victory.&#8217;  It means we are becomeing more sophisticated and nuanced and selective in the destruction of our own chidlren.  </p>
<p>carl</p>
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