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	<title>Comments on: Alan Dershowitz on the Casey Anthony Verdict</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/07/07/alan-dershowitz-on-the-casey-anthony-verdict/</link>
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		<title>By: jb</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/07/07/alan-dershowitz-on-the-casey-anthony-verdict/comment-page-1/#comment-44850</link>
		<dc:creator>jb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jul 2011 23:47:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=31679#comment-44850</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The prosecution proved nothing.

The rest of the opinions expressed are thus conjecture.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The prosecution proved nothing.</p>
<p>The rest of the opinions expressed are thus conjecture.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/07/07/alan-dershowitz-on-the-casey-anthony-verdict/comment-page-1/#comment-44828</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jul 2011 02:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I am confused by Dershowitz&#039;s comment about Sodom.  God eventually destroyed Sodom in the story.  I assume that means that God couldn&#039;t find 10 righteous citizens in Sodom. Maybe he found 3?  So that wasn&#039;t enough and they died too?  

That isn&#039;t the basis of the the legal standard!
That makes zero sense.  

Dershowitz should have mentioned Francis Dane (maybe that&#039;s what he meant?) who stopped the Salem Witch trials and was quoted as saying &quot;it is better that 10 witches go free than one innocent be put to death.&quot;

That statement makes more sense than the Biblical quote.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am confused by Dershowitz&#8217;s comment about Sodom.  God eventually destroyed Sodom in the story.  I assume that means that God couldn&#8217;t find 10 righteous citizens in Sodom. Maybe he found 3?  So that wasn&#8217;t enough and they died too?  </p>
<p>That isn&#8217;t the basis of the the legal standard!<br />
That makes zero sense.  </p>
<p>Dershowitz should have mentioned Francis Dane (maybe that&#8217;s what he meant?) who stopped the Salem Witch trials and was quoted as saying &#8220;it is better that 10 witches go free than one innocent be put to death.&#8221;</p>
<p>That statement makes more sense than the Biblical quote.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert T. Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/07/07/alan-dershowitz-on-the-casey-anthony-verdict/comment-page-1/#comment-44827</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert T. Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jul 2011 00:21:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=31679#comment-44827</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To Steve Klein:

It&#039;s not a question of *believing* Alan Dershowitz, as if I were accepting his conclusions on his personal authority. His editorial is wise because his arguments are persuassive. This makes it quite irrelevant whether he is a &quot;low life,&quot; a issue on which I have no opinion, having never met the man.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Steve Klein:</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not a question of *believing* Alan Dershowitz, as if I were accepting his conclusions on his personal authority. His editorial is wise because his arguments are persuassive. This makes it quite irrelevant whether he is a &#8220;low life,&#8221; a issue on which I have no opinion, having never met the man.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Klein</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/07/07/alan-dershowitz-on-the-casey-anthony-verdict/comment-page-1/#comment-44826</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Klein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jul 2011 23:40:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=31679#comment-44826</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Robert, why would you believe a low-life like Alan Dershowitz?  Come on!  This is shocking. A very wise editorial?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert, why would you believe a low-life like Alan Dershowitz?  Come on!  This is shocking. A very wise editorial?</p>
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		<title>By: pentamom</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/07/07/alan-dershowitz-on-the-casey-anthony-verdict/comment-page-1/#comment-44787</link>
		<dc:creator>pentamom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jul 2011 20:23:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=31679#comment-44787</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;On the other hand aren’t you running up against a key doctrine from Christian theology? Isn’t the whole concept of Christ built around the idea that ‘someone has to pay’ and while that someone ‘should’ be us it is actually Christ?&quot;

Well, that was rather predictable.

You&#039;ve come up with the one exception to the general point I was making. The unique circumstances of the Incarnation change the rules a bit; it doesn&#039;t really change the &lt;i&gt;relevanat&lt;/i&gt; point that you, I, or anyone else other than God Incarnate who didn&#039;t hurt Caylee Anthony could NOT do anything to help justice by &quot;paying&quot; for Caylee&#039;s suffering and death.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;On the other hand aren’t you running up against a key doctrine from Christian theology? Isn’t the whole concept of Christ built around the idea that ‘someone has to pay’ and while that someone ‘should’ be us it is actually Christ?&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, that was rather predictable.</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve come up with the one exception to the general point I was making. The unique circumstances of the Incarnation change the rules a bit; it doesn&#8217;t really change the <i>relevanat</i> point that you, I, or anyone else other than God Incarnate who didn&#8217;t hurt Caylee Anthony could NOT do anything to help justice by &#8220;paying&#8221; for Caylee&#8217;s suffering and death.</p>
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		<title>By: Boonton</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/07/07/alan-dershowitz-on-the-casey-anthony-verdict/comment-page-1/#comment-44773</link>
		<dc:creator>Boonton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jul 2011 16:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=31679#comment-44773</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[pentamom

&lt;i&gt;The problem is that Dershowitz is conflating actual “justice for the victim” with the popular cry of “justice for the victim,” which actually means, “Someone has to pay.” But “someone has to pay” *isn’t* actually justice.&lt;/i&gt;

Good point, I&#039;m sure her daughter, if she could have the choice, would rather simply have not suffered whatever it is she suffered in her last moments rather than &#039;knowing&#039; she would be &#039;avenged&#039; by her mom going to the chair.

On the other hand aren&#039;t you running up against a key doctrine from Christian theology?  Isn&#039;t the whole concept of Christ built around the idea that &#039;someone has to pay&#039; and while that someone &#039;should&#039; be us it is actually Christ?

Patrick
&lt;i&gt;Finally, consider this: if the point of the law isn’t to determine justice for the victim, or even to reveal the truth (as Dershowitz repeatedly states), the purported crime against the victim must ipso facto be immaterial to the proceedings. &lt;/i&gt;

The purpose of law is to set ground rules for the state.  Clearly people cannot be allowed to run around killing whoever they want (either because of whim or as &#039;revenge&#039; for previous murders).  The state is empowered to stop us from doing so and punish us.  The purpose of law is to set up a system of rules that bind the state as it does that and set limits on its power.  Hence the state only punishes for crimes when its proveable beyond reasonable doubt.


Millie
&lt;i&gt;We can go on and on analyzing the legal system and how correctly it worked in this case, specially for Casey Anthony; but aren’n we missing the eeal important matter here; how did it work for the dead little girl? Has justice been served for her? Is anyone, paying for what she suffered? Does anyone care?&lt;/i&gt;

Do people care?  Yes.  Is anyone &#039;paying for what she suffered&#039;.....well I think so.  I think her mother is as well as her grand parents as well as many others who got wrapped up in the case.  I&#039;m not generally a very religious person but I do have a sense....or hunch....that nothing in the world is really free...everything gets &#039;paid for&#039; even if we don&#039;t realize it.  I&#039;m not that upset by the verdict then.  I suspect Casey is and will pay for whatever it is she has done.  I wouldn&#039;t wish to be in her place and I don&#039;t say this because I want people to be go vigilante on her...or even shun her.  I feel she will &#039;pay&#039; even if everyone forgets her and she lives as normal a life as anyone can.

But as a collory to this, I don&#039;t feel that its my or anyone else&#039;s job to &#039;do justice&#039; here.  We have a system and the system is good for its purposes but its not within our ability to set the world right.  Convicting her, torturing her, killing her would not make her daughter any less dead.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>pentamom</p>
<p><i>The problem is that Dershowitz is conflating actual “justice for the victim” with the popular cry of “justice for the victim,” which actually means, “Someone has to pay.” But “someone has to pay” *isn’t* actually justice.</i></p>
<p>Good point, I&#8217;m sure her daughter, if she could have the choice, would rather simply have not suffered whatever it is she suffered in her last moments rather than &#8216;knowing&#8217; she would be &#8216;avenged&#8217; by her mom going to the chair.</p>
<p>On the other hand aren&#8217;t you running up against a key doctrine from Christian theology?  Isn&#8217;t the whole concept of Christ built around the idea that &#8216;someone has to pay&#8217; and while that someone &#8216;should&#8217; be us it is actually Christ?</p>
<p>Patrick<br />
<i>Finally, consider this: if the point of the law isn’t to determine justice for the victim, or even to reveal the truth (as Dershowitz repeatedly states), the purported crime against the victim must ipso facto be immaterial to the proceedings. </i></p>
<p>The purpose of law is to set ground rules for the state.  Clearly people cannot be allowed to run around killing whoever they want (either because of whim or as &#8216;revenge&#8217; for previous murders).  The state is empowered to stop us from doing so and punish us.  The purpose of law is to set up a system of rules that bind the state as it does that and set limits on its power.  Hence the state only punishes for crimes when its proveable beyond reasonable doubt.</p>
<p>Millie<br />
<i>We can go on and on analyzing the legal system and how correctly it worked in this case, specially for Casey Anthony; but aren’n we missing the eeal important matter here; how did it work for the dead little girl? Has justice been served for her? Is anyone, paying for what she suffered? Does anyone care?</i></p>
<p>Do people care?  Yes.  Is anyone &#8216;paying for what she suffered&#8217;&#8230;..well I think so.  I think her mother is as well as her grand parents as well as many others who got wrapped up in the case.  I&#8217;m not generally a very religious person but I do have a sense&#8230;.or hunch&#8230;.that nothing in the world is really free&#8230;everything gets &#8216;paid for&#8217; even if we don&#8217;t realize it.  I&#8217;m not that upset by the verdict then.  I suspect Casey is and will pay for whatever it is she has done.  I wouldn&#8217;t wish to be in her place and I don&#8217;t say this because I want people to be go vigilante on her&#8230;or even shun her.  I feel she will &#8216;pay&#8217; even if everyone forgets her and she lives as normal a life as anyone can.</p>
<p>But as a collory to this, I don&#8217;t feel that its my or anyone else&#8217;s job to &#8216;do justice&#8217; here.  We have a system and the system is good for its purposes but its not within our ability to set the world right.  Convicting her, torturing her, killing her would not make her daughter any less dead.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael PS</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/07/07/alan-dershowitz-on-the-casey-anthony-verdict/comment-page-1/#comment-44732</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael PS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jul 2011 11:03:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=31679#comment-44732</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In an action of divorce or separation, if adultery was the ground of action, it formerly had to be proved by the criminal standard -beyond reasonable doubt and by corroborated evidence.  Accordingly the Court could find the defender guilty of adultery with the co-defender, but assoilzie the co-defender because there was no evidence sufficient in law to prove that he had committed adultery with the defender: Creasey v Creasey 1931 S.C. 9.  The Lord President there referred to a passage in Lord Fraser&#039;s Husband and Wife (vol. ii., pp. 1173-4), 
&quot;The confessions of the wife, defender, may warrant the Court in finding that adultery is proved against her, while, not being evidence against the co-defender, he escapes; and thus divorce may be granted against the wife for adultery committed by her with him, while he himself is assoilzied from the action.&quot;

The outcome is, in fact, perfectly logical.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In an action of divorce or separation, if adultery was the ground of action, it formerly had to be proved by the criminal standard -beyond reasonable doubt and by corroborated evidence.  Accordingly the Court could find the defender guilty of adultery with the co-defender, but assoilzie the co-defender because there was no evidence sufficient in law to prove that he had committed adultery with the defender: Creasey v Creasey 1931 S.C. 9.  The Lord President there referred to a passage in Lord Fraser&#8217;s Husband and Wife (vol. ii., pp. 1173-4),<br />
&#8220;The confessions of the wife, defender, may warrant the Court in finding that adultery is proved against her, while, not being evidence against the co-defender, he escapes; and thus divorce may be granted against the wife for adultery committed by her with him, while he himself is assoilzied from the action.&#8221;</p>
<p>The outcome is, in fact, perfectly logical.</p>
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		<title>By: Casey Anthony &#171; A Little Learning&#8230;</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/07/07/alan-dershowitz-on-the-casey-anthony-verdict/comment-page-1/#comment-44722</link>
		<dc:creator>Casey Anthony &#171; A Little Learning&#8230;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jul 2011 02:49:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=31679#comment-44722</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] I gather from today&#8217;s comments from juror #3 that the jury was in agony about not being able to convict Ms Anthony, but they did their duty and judged — correctly, as far as I can see — that the prosecution failed to make its case for capital murder. Hard to convict on that charge beyond a reasonable doubt when you don&#8217;t know how the victim died, or when, or where. See Alan Dershowitz&#8217;s essay and Robert T Miller&#8217;s comment on it. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I gather from today&#8217;s comments from juror #3 that the jury was in agony about not being able to convict Ms Anthony, but they did their duty and judged — correctly, as far as I can see — that the prosecution failed to make its case for capital murder. Hard to convict on that charge beyond a reasonable doubt when you don&#8217;t know how the victim died, or when, or where. See Alan Dershowitz&#8217;s essay and Robert T Miller&#8217;s comment on it. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/07/07/alan-dershowitz-on-the-casey-anthony-verdict/comment-page-1/#comment-44706</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jul 2011 21:34:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=31679#comment-44706</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One important point that rarely is mentioned: Casey Anthony&#039;s &quot;not guilty&quot; verdict is a triumph for you and me. If the prosecution does not prove it&#039;s case beyond...then we are all so much more vulnerable and at the mercy of a powerful, structured prosecution, Hell bent on a conviction.
Verdicts such as this, give us better odds against being caught up in a wrongful prosecution and conviction. As grotesque as it may be, if a &quot;Casey Anthony&quot; has to be released to protect you and me, then so be it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One important point that rarely is mentioned: Casey Anthony&#8217;s &#8220;not guilty&#8221; verdict is a triumph for you and me. If the prosecution does not prove it&#8217;s case beyond&#8230;then we are all so much more vulnerable and at the mercy of a powerful, structured prosecution, Hell bent on a conviction.<br />
Verdicts such as this, give us better odds against being caught up in a wrongful prosecution and conviction. As grotesque as it may be, if a &#8220;Casey Anthony&#8221; has to be released to protect you and me, then so be it.</p>
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		<title>By: pentamom</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/07/07/alan-dershowitz-on-the-casey-anthony-verdict/comment-page-1/#comment-44699</link>
		<dc:creator>pentamom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jul 2011 20:43:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=31679#comment-44699</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;how did it work for the dead little girl? Has justice been served for her? Is anyone, paying for what she suffered? Does anyone care? Has ” legality” replaced ” “morality”? Are we been “forced” or ” requested” to legal above moral? Is it ok?&quot;

The answers are, as follows:

1. The &quot;dead little girl&quot; cannot any longer be served by justice. We as a society can, however, demand justice on her behalf, and in this case, her murder has not yet been dealt with by means of justice. However, we do not have absolute assurance that finding Casey guilty would have done that, either.

2. Is anyone paying for what she suffered? No, no one is. However, it would not be just for someone to pay because Caylee suffered, *if it was not the person who caused Caylee to suffer.* And apparently within the limits of human ability, it was not possible to be certain enough that Casey was that person, in order to inflict some kind of punishment on her. That&#039;s life in a world full of humans.

3. Does anyone care? Of course people care. There was a trial as a result of an entire society caring.

4. Has ” legality” replaced ” “morality”? The two are not mutually exclusive. It is an aspect of morality that someone should not be punished unless his or her guilt is satisfactorily proven.

5. Are we been “forced” or ” requested” to legal above moral? Not legal above moral, but moral by means of legal. Again, it isn&#039;t moral to convict someone if the government, with fantastic resources at its disposal, can&#039;t make people believe the person is guilty.

We might all have our private opinions about Casey&#039;s guilt, and it could in fact be that it was unjust that she was not convicted. But we shouldn&#039;t make the simple equation &quot;she got off therefore nobody cares&quot; or &quot;she got off therefore the legal system doesn&#039;t want to hold people accountable.&quot; It&#039;s just that we live in an imperfect world full of imperfect people who have to make decisions with imperfect knowledge, and the best way we&#039;ve figured out to protect all the *innocent* people who are accused of crimes, is to make it reasonably hard to convict anyone. If there&#039;s a better solution than that, I don&#039;t know what it is.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;how did it work for the dead little girl? Has justice been served for her? Is anyone, paying for what she suffered? Does anyone care? Has ” legality” replaced ” “morality”? Are we been “forced” or ” requested” to legal above moral? Is it ok?&#8221;</p>
<p>The answers are, as follows:</p>
<p>1. The &#8220;dead little girl&#8221; cannot any longer be served by justice. We as a society can, however, demand justice on her behalf, and in this case, her murder has not yet been dealt with by means of justice. However, we do not have absolute assurance that finding Casey guilty would have done that, either.</p>
<p>2. Is anyone paying for what she suffered? No, no one is. However, it would not be just for someone to pay because Caylee suffered, *if it was not the person who caused Caylee to suffer.* And apparently within the limits of human ability, it was not possible to be certain enough that Casey was that person, in order to inflict some kind of punishment on her. That&#8217;s life in a world full of humans.</p>
<p>3. Does anyone care? Of course people care. There was a trial as a result of an entire society caring.</p>
<p>4. Has ” legality” replaced ” “morality”? The two are not mutually exclusive. It is an aspect of morality that someone should not be punished unless his or her guilt is satisfactorily proven.</p>
<p>5. Are we been “forced” or ” requested” to legal above moral? Not legal above moral, but moral by means of legal. Again, it isn&#8217;t moral to convict someone if the government, with fantastic resources at its disposal, can&#8217;t make people believe the person is guilty.</p>
<p>We might all have our private opinions about Casey&#8217;s guilt, and it could in fact be that it was unjust that she was not convicted. But we shouldn&#8217;t make the simple equation &#8220;she got off therefore nobody cares&#8221; or &#8220;she got off therefore the legal system doesn&#8217;t want to hold people accountable.&#8221; It&#8217;s just that we live in an imperfect world full of imperfect people who have to make decisions with imperfect knowledge, and the best way we&#8217;ve figured out to protect all the *innocent* people who are accused of crimes, is to make it reasonably hard to convict anyone. If there&#8217;s a better solution than that, I don&#8217;t know what it is.</p>
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