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	<title>Comments on: Is Judicial Abdication a Bigger Problem Than Judicial Activism?</title>
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		<title>By: Boonton</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/10/14/is-judicial-abdication-a-bigger-problem-than-judicial-activism/comment-page-1/#comment-52007</link>
		<dc:creator>Boonton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2011 17:19:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=35312#comment-52007</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Don&#039;t be surprised Anonsters, Barry is the relativist in this argument.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t be surprised Anonsters, Barry is the relativist in this argument.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonsters</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/10/14/is-judicial-abdication-a-bigger-problem-than-judicial-activism/comment-page-1/#comment-51988</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonsters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:10:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=35312#comment-51988</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And Barry Arrington, rather than responding substantively to either my or Boonton&#039;s comments, decides to label us with what is apparently supposed to be a derogatory label. I&#039;m certainly convinced. Or, you know, not.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And Barry Arrington, rather than responding substantively to either my or Boonton&#8217;s comments, decides to label us with what is apparently supposed to be a derogatory label. I&#8217;m certainly convinced. Or, you know, not.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael PS</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/10/14/is-judicial-abdication-a-bigger-problem-than-judicial-activism/comment-page-1/#comment-51981</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael PS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2011 07:33:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[One could apply to the Constitution what Portalis said of the Code of 1804: &quot;A host of things are necessarily left to usage, to the discussion of men learned in the law, to the decision of judges….The function of statutory law is to fix, in broad lines, the general maxims of the law, to establish principles that will be fecund in consequences, and not to descend to the details of questions that may arise in each subject.  It is for the judge and the jurist, imbued with the general spirit of the laws, to direct their applications.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One could apply to the Constitution what Portalis said of the Code of 1804: &#8220;A host of things are necessarily left to usage, to the discussion of men learned in the law, to the decision of judges….The function of statutory law is to fix, in broad lines, the general maxims of the law, to establish principles that will be fecund in consequences, and not to descend to the details of questions that may arise in each subject.  It is for the judge and the jurist, imbued with the general spirit of the laws, to direct their applications.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Barry Arrington</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/10/14/is-judicial-abdication-a-bigger-problem-than-judicial-activism/comment-page-1/#comment-51968</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry Arrington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Oct 2011 20:28:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=35312#comment-51968</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Anonster espouses nihilism and Boonton supports him with an all too familiar liberal trope, the old chestnut that goes something like this:  “The line is sometimes blurry; that must mean there is no line at all.”]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anonster espouses nihilism and Boonton supports him with an all too familiar liberal trope, the old chestnut that goes something like this:  “The line is sometimes blurry; that must mean there is no line at all.”</p>
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		<title>By: Boonton</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/10/14/is-judicial-abdication-a-bigger-problem-than-judicial-activism/comment-page-1/#comment-51948</link>
		<dc:creator>Boonton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:28:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=35312#comment-51948</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I disagree Anonsters is expousing nihilism.  Look the Constitution itself created an SC with *multiple judges* whose decisions carry by majority vote.  In other words the Founders themselves did not feel the Constitution&#039;s meaning was &#039;obvious&#039; and deducing it nothing more than a simple application of logic to premises as if it was alegebra or arithmatic.  The very inclusion of multiple judges and voting implies different but legitimate points of view.  After all you don&#039;t have or need a committee to decide what the square root of 100 is.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree Anonsters is expousing nihilism.  Look the Constitution itself created an SC with *multiple judges* whose decisions carry by majority vote.  In other words the Founders themselves did not feel the Constitution&#8217;s meaning was &#8216;obvious&#8217; and deducing it nothing more than a simple application of logic to premises as if it was alegebra or arithmatic.  The very inclusion of multiple judges and voting implies different but legitimate points of view.  After all you don&#8217;t have or need a committee to decide what the square root of 100 is.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry Arrington</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/10/14/is-judicial-abdication-a-bigger-problem-than-judicial-activism/comment-page-1/#comment-51946</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry Arrington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Oct 2011 13:48:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=35312#comment-51946</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Anonsters,
Thank you for your excellent elucidation of constitutional nihilism.  We will have to disagree.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anonsters,<br />
Thank you for your excellent elucidation of constitutional nihilism.  We will have to disagree.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonsters</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/10/14/is-judicial-abdication-a-bigger-problem-than-judicial-activism/comment-page-1/#comment-51913</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonsters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Oct 2011 05:08:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=35312#comment-51913</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Barry Arrington:

You&#039;re make the same assumption, while claiming that you&#039;re making no such assumption. You think the text has determinate meaning. And then you invoke an example and cite &quot;text, history, and structure.&quot;

To quote the very next sentence in &lt;i&gt;Marbury&lt;/i&gt;, after the one I quoted: &quot;Those who apply the rule to particular cases must, of necessity, expound and interpret that rule.&quot; (&lt;i&gt;Marbury&lt;/i&gt;, 5 U.S. 137, 177). Yes, we have a written constitution. It has to be interpreted and applied. Much in the same way that we have written scriptures, which have to be interpreted and applied. For me, as a Catholic, it&#039;s pretty obvious that every answer to every question I may have about faith and morals will not be found explicitly spelled out in the Bible. Thank God for the Church and her Tradition.

Once again, you say: &lt;i&gt;We can all agree that the Constitution’s text has meaning and Supreme Court decisions can (and often are) unfaithful to that meaning.&lt;/i&gt;

Yes, we can argue that way. And arguing that way, we&#039;re being dishonest, either with each other or with ourselves (or both). I interpret the Constitution to say X. The Court says the Constitution means not X. The Court is being unfaithful to the meaning of the Constitution! No, the Court is being unfaithful to &lt;i&gt;my interpretation&lt;/i&gt; of the Constitution. 

That is not to deny that there may be more strongly supported interpretations, depending on our chosen criteria (text, history, structure, evolving standards, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind, what Big Bird thinks, whatever). But notice the Constitution itself doesn&#039;t prescribe any particular methods or criteria for interpreting it. 

And for what it&#039;s worth, I absolutely agree that the notion that certain rights are incorporated against the states through the due process clause of the 14th Amendment is balderdash. I&#039;m with Hugo Black on this one: the entire Bill of Rights (well, except for the 9th and 10th Amendments, of course) is incorporated by the 14th Amendment.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Barry Arrington:</p>
<p>You&#8217;re make the same assumption, while claiming that you&#8217;re making no such assumption. You think the text has determinate meaning. And then you invoke an example and cite &#8220;text, history, and structure.&#8221;</p>
<p>To quote the very next sentence in <i>Marbury</i>, after the one I quoted: &#8220;Those who apply the rule to particular cases must, of necessity, expound and interpret that rule.&#8221; (<i>Marbury</i>, 5 U.S. 137, 177). Yes, we have a written constitution. It has to be interpreted and applied. Much in the same way that we have written scriptures, which have to be interpreted and applied. For me, as a Catholic, it&#8217;s pretty obvious that every answer to every question I may have about faith and morals will not be found explicitly spelled out in the Bible. Thank God for the Church and her Tradition.</p>
<p>Once again, you say: <i>We can all agree that the Constitution’s text has meaning and Supreme Court decisions can (and often are) unfaithful to that meaning.</i></p>
<p>Yes, we can argue that way. And arguing that way, we&#8217;re being dishonest, either with each other or with ourselves (or both). I interpret the Constitution to say X. The Court says the Constitution means not X. The Court is being unfaithful to the meaning of the Constitution! No, the Court is being unfaithful to <i>my interpretation</i> of the Constitution. </p>
<p>That is not to deny that there may be more strongly supported interpretations, depending on our chosen criteria (text, history, structure, evolving standards, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind, what Big Bird thinks, whatever). But notice the Constitution itself doesn&#8217;t prescribe any particular methods or criteria for interpreting it. </p>
<p>And for what it&#8217;s worth, I absolutely agree that the notion that certain rights are incorporated against the states through the due process clause of the 14th Amendment is balderdash. I&#8217;m with Hugo Black on this one: the entire Bill of Rights (well, except for the 9th and 10th Amendments, of course) is incorporated by the 14th Amendment.</p>
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		<title>By: Boonton</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/10/14/is-judicial-abdication-a-bigger-problem-than-judicial-activism/comment-page-1/#comment-51907</link>
		<dc:creator>Boonton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Oct 2011 03:07:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=35312#comment-51907</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Or another way of looking at it:

I&#039;ve been driving maybe 20 years maybe at least two times a day.  That&#039;s 14,600 drives I&#039;ve taken and I&#039;ve had I think two accidents.  that&#039;s just about in line with &quot;about three out of every 5,000 laws passed by Congress and state legislatures every year&quot;

So maybe we should consider just exactly what we mean by courts strking down laws.  The impression above is that its an error checking process, like your spell check on your email program.  You&#039;re happy it catches more errors!  But maybe its not so happy.  Maybe its more like a car accident.  The fewer you have the better.  And the courts aren&#039;t so fun.  To challenge a law you have to have standing so it means you had to have been harmed in some way by the law.  That means a very time consuming and stressful process of filing, pleading, appealing and so on.  If this unconstitutional law has put you in jail, taken your house or money away, or put you on death row then its not so harmless as, say, spell check.  Even if you win at the end, well wouldn&#039;t you have rather not played?


So maybe the founders set the system up not wanting to see many unconstitutional laws passed....so they generally made it hard to pass an unconstitutional law.  Sort of like highways are genreally &#039;idiot proof&#039; to min. the chance of accidents, even though lots of really stupid people will drive down them.  Of course that doesn&#039;t mean it isn&#039;t hard to pass a stupid law, a poorly thought out one, or one with really crappy consequences.  It does mean that the system channels most of the competiting political pressures in such a way to ensure that most laws that end up making it are within Constitutional bounds.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or another way of looking at it:</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been driving maybe 20 years maybe at least two times a day.  That&#8217;s 14,600 drives I&#8217;ve taken and I&#8217;ve had I think two accidents.  that&#8217;s just about in line with &#8220;about three out of every 5,000 laws passed by Congress and state legislatures every year&#8221;</p>
<p>So maybe we should consider just exactly what we mean by courts strking down laws.  The impression above is that its an error checking process, like your spell check on your email program.  You&#8217;re happy it catches more errors!  But maybe its not so happy.  Maybe its more like a car accident.  The fewer you have the better.  And the courts aren&#8217;t so fun.  To challenge a law you have to have standing so it means you had to have been harmed in some way by the law.  That means a very time consuming and stressful process of filing, pleading, appealing and so on.  If this unconstitutional law has put you in jail, taken your house or money away, or put you on death row then its not so harmless as, say, spell check.  Even if you win at the end, well wouldn&#8217;t you have rather not played?</p>
<p>So maybe the founders set the system up not wanting to see many unconstitutional laws passed&#8230;.so they generally made it hard to pass an unconstitutional law.  Sort of like highways are genreally &#8216;idiot proof&#8217; to min. the chance of accidents, even though lots of really stupid people will drive down them.  Of course that doesn&#8217;t mean it isn&#8217;t hard to pass a stupid law, a poorly thought out one, or one with really crappy consequences.  It does mean that the system channels most of the competiting political pressures in such a way to ensure that most laws that end up making it are within Constitutional bounds.</p>
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		<title>By: Boonton</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/10/14/is-judicial-abdication-a-bigger-problem-than-judicial-activism/comment-page-1/#comment-51883</link>
		<dc:creator>Boonton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Oct 2011 16:17:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=35312#comment-51883</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Another factor missed here is that courts do not review all laws passed.  They only review laws if it results in an actual dispute before them which means that someone has to file a suit and that someone has to have standing to sue (meaning the unconstitutional law has to directly impact them in some negative way, they can&#039;t just be do-gooders seeking to improve laws).  Absent an actual case, US courts do not rule on laws or issues opinions advising legislatures on proposed laws.

The relevant metric then should be how many laws are stuck down after their Constitutionality is actually challenged in a court case.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another factor missed here is that courts do not review all laws passed.  They only review laws if it results in an actual dispute before them which means that someone has to file a suit and that someone has to have standing to sue (meaning the unconstitutional law has to directly impact them in some negative way, they can&#8217;t just be do-gooders seeking to improve laws).  Absent an actual case, US courts do not rule on laws or issues opinions advising legislatures on proposed laws.</p>
<p>The relevant metric then should be how many laws are stuck down after their Constitutionality is actually challenged in a court case.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry Arrington</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/10/14/is-judicial-abdication-a-bigger-problem-than-judicial-activism/comment-page-1/#comment-51881</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry Arrington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Oct 2011 16:12:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=35312#comment-51881</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Anonsters writes:  &quot;One of [Carter&#039;s] major unstated assumptions is that there is some free-floating constitutional standard by which we can measure or evaluate what does and does not pass constitutional muster.&quot;

Anonsters, I am not sure what you mean by this, but there most certainly is (or at least should be) a standard for deciding what does and does not pass constitutional muster.  It is called &quot;the Constitution.&quot;  Yes, in Marbury justice Marshall wrote that it is the province of the judiciary to say what the law is.  I would, however, urge you to take another look at the case, and you will see that the fundamental bedrock of the opinion is Marshall&#039;s opinion is his observation that the U.S. has adopted a &quot;written constitution.&quot;  Surely Marshall&#039;s observation would be meaningless and the program of judicial review he envisioned set adrift if the judiciary were not strictly bound by the text of the written document to which Marshall referred.  

And I do not take Mr. Carter to be relying on an &quot;extra-judicial&quot; meaning of the Constitution.  We can all agree that the Constitution&#039;s text has meaning and Supreme Court decisions can (and often are) unfaithful to that meaning.  That is what I understand Mr. Carter to be referring to by &quot;judicial activism.&quot;  So he is not appealing to an &quot;extra-judicial&quot; meaning of the text by which to discern whether a court has engaged in activism.  He is appealing to the plain old everyday ordinary meaning of the text.  

Here&#039;s an example.  The court says that the due process clause of the 14th Amendment &quot;incorporates&quot; some (but not all) of the Bill of Rights and makes the favored provisions applicable to the states.  Balderdash.  It does no such thing.  The decision is utterly unsupportable by text, history and structure of the Constitution.  It is a judicial power grab plain and simple.  I don&#039;t need an &quot;extra-judicial&quot; standard to judge it so.  All I have to do is look at the text of the Constitution to condemn the power grab.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anonsters writes:  &#8220;One of [Carter's] major unstated assumptions is that there is some free-floating constitutional standard by which we can measure or evaluate what does and does not pass constitutional muster.&#8221;</p>
<p>Anonsters, I am not sure what you mean by this, but there most certainly is (or at least should be) a standard for deciding what does and does not pass constitutional muster.  It is called &#8220;the Constitution.&#8221;  Yes, in Marbury justice Marshall wrote that it is the province of the judiciary to say what the law is.  I would, however, urge you to take another look at the case, and you will see that the fundamental bedrock of the opinion is Marshall&#8217;s opinion is his observation that the U.S. has adopted a &#8220;written constitution.&#8221;  Surely Marshall&#8217;s observation would be meaningless and the program of judicial review he envisioned set adrift if the judiciary were not strictly bound by the text of the written document to which Marshall referred.  </p>
<p>And I do not take Mr. Carter to be relying on an &#8220;extra-judicial&#8221; meaning of the Constitution.  We can all agree that the Constitution&#8217;s text has meaning and Supreme Court decisions can (and often are) unfaithful to that meaning.  That is what I understand Mr. Carter to be referring to by &#8220;judicial activism.&#8221;  So he is not appealing to an &#8220;extra-judicial&#8221; meaning of the text by which to discern whether a court has engaged in activism.  He is appealing to the plain old everyday ordinary meaning of the text.  </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s an example.  The court says that the due process clause of the 14th Amendment &#8220;incorporates&#8221; some (but not all) of the Bill of Rights and makes the favored provisions applicable to the states.  Balderdash.  It does no such thing.  The decision is utterly unsupportable by text, history and structure of the Constitution.  It is a judicial power grab plain and simple.  I don&#8217;t need an &#8220;extra-judicial&#8221; standard to judge it so.  All I have to do is look at the text of the Constitution to condemn the power grab.</p>
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