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	<title>Comments on: Why Are Catholics Swimming the Cumberland?</title>
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		<title>By: Donald R. McClarey</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/11/16/why-are-catholics-swimming-the-cumberland/comment-page-1/#comment-54559</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald R. McClarey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Nov 2011 17:54:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=36658#comment-54559</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Stacy Trasancos has an interesting post on her conversion from Baptist to Catholic:
 
http://whyimcatholic.com/index.php/conversion-stories/protestant-converts/baptist/item/73-baptist-convert-stacy-trasancos]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stacy Trasancos has an interesting post on her conversion from Baptist to Catholic:</p>
<p><a href="http://whyimcatholic.com/index.php/conversion-stories/protestant-converts/baptist/item/73-baptist-convert-stacy-trasancos" rel="nofollow">http://whyimcatholic.com/index.php/conversion-stories/protestant-converts/baptist/item/73-baptist-convert-stacy-trasancos</a></p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Sampson</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/11/16/why-are-catholics-swimming-the-cumberland/comment-page-1/#comment-54403</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Sampson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Nov 2011 15:39:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=36658#comment-54403</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As a Catholic, I have no desire to leave the Church for another one especially the Southern Baptist which has been on the wrong side of history on almost every moral and social issue.  One of the solid and beautiful things about Catholicism is its teaching on social justice (what you do to the least you do to me - Jesus). And its sense of &quot;us&quot; as a family of God instead of just &quot;me&quot; and &quot;my&quot; faith and &quot;my&quot; lord and &quot;my&quot; salvation.  Many Catholics who wander to other faiths usually don&#039;t stay long - growing tired of them too or finding them lacking in depth.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a Catholic, I have no desire to leave the Church for another one especially the Southern Baptist which has been on the wrong side of history on almost every moral and social issue.  One of the solid and beautiful things about Catholicism is its teaching on social justice (what you do to the least you do to me &#8211; Jesus). And its sense of &#8220;us&#8221; as a family of God instead of just &#8220;me&#8221; and &#8220;my&#8221; faith and &#8220;my&#8221; lord and &#8220;my&#8221; salvation.  Many Catholics who wander to other faiths usually don&#8217;t stay long &#8211; growing tired of them too or finding them lacking in depth.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/11/16/why-are-catholics-swimming-the-cumberland/comment-page-1/#comment-54374</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Nov 2011 00:34:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=36658#comment-54374</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As a Catholic who is now a member of the PCA, the reason I left was the futility of trying to earn my salvation.  Couldn&#039;t do it, no matter how hard the 8th grade nun told us to.  Salvation by God&#039;s grace through Jesus&#039; death on the cross--there&#039;s the real thing!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a Catholic who is now a member of the PCA, the reason I left was the futility of trying to earn my salvation.  Couldn&#8217;t do it, no matter how hard the 8th grade nun told us to.  Salvation by God&#8217;s grace through Jesus&#8217; death on the cross&#8211;there&#8217;s the real thing!</p>
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		<title>By: That Was The Week That Was &#171; The Pietist Schoolman</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/11/16/why-are-catholics-swimming-the-cumberland/comment-page-1/#comment-54200</link>
		<dc:creator>That Was The Week That Was &#171; The Pietist Schoolman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Nov 2011 13:49:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=36658#comment-54200</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Galli&#8217;s remarks started with the phenomenon of evangelical scholars like Christian Smith and Francis Beckwith converting to Catholicism. Joe Carter considers the lesser known but increasingly common trend of Catholics becoming Southern Baptists. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Galli&#8217;s remarks started with the phenomenon of evangelical scholars like Christian Smith and Francis Beckwith converting to Catholicism. Joe Carter considers the lesser known but increasingly common trend of Catholics becoming Southern Baptists. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: William Tighe</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/11/16/why-are-catholics-swimming-the-cumberland/comment-page-1/#comment-54148</link>
		<dc:creator>William Tighe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Nov 2011 19:01:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=36658#comment-54148</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In my haste in writing and then proofreading my comment earlier today, I left out the following, which was meant to come at the end of the second of its three paragraphs:

&quot;Lutherans will argue that their doctrine and/or practice on these matters is &quot;Scriptural,&quot; and that this is the important thing, even &quot;the one thing necessary,&quot; but, then, so will antipaedobaptists, seventh-day sabbatarians, and those who make foot-washing &quot;a gospel ordinance.&quot;  If (as seems to be the case) those whom we are discussing in this paragraph are dubious about Sola Scriptura as well, they may well choose (as I did, decades ago) to adopt for themselves a historicized version of Tertullian&#039;s De Praescriptione and rule out any &quot;option&quot; whose dogmatic commitments and sacramental practices are so clearly at odds with what we can know about the Church Fathers and the practice of the Early Church.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my haste in writing and then proofreading my comment earlier today, I left out the following, which was meant to come at the end of the second of its three paragraphs:</p>
<p>&#8220;Lutherans will argue that their doctrine and/or practice on these matters is &#8220;Scriptural,&#8221; and that this is the important thing, even &#8220;the one thing necessary,&#8221; but, then, so will antipaedobaptists, seventh-day sabbatarians, and those who make foot-washing &#8220;a gospel ordinance.&#8221;  If (as seems to be the case) those whom we are discussing in this paragraph are dubious about Sola Scriptura as well, they may well choose (as I did, decades ago) to adopt for themselves a historicized version of Tertullian&#8217;s De Praescriptione and rule out any &#8220;option&#8221; whose dogmatic commitments and sacramental practices are so clearly at odds with what we can know about the Church Fathers and the practice of the Early Church.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: melxiopp</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/11/16/why-are-catholics-swimming-the-cumberland/comment-page-1/#comment-54132</link>
		<dc:creator>melxiopp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:14:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=36658#comment-54132</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As to why RCs are swimming the Cumberland, I think this says more about the watering down of distinctives in RC teaching and the rise in the Baptist/Evangelical style in &#039;general, American Christianity&#039;.  Add to this the generational acculturation common to immigrants holding a faith (RCism) that is still heavily weighted with being an &#039;immigrant faith&#039; in - whether new immigrants to the US (e.g., Hispanics) or migration to fast-growing regions in the South and West that have historically smaller RC populations than the NE and Midwest, not to mention intermarriage and the &quot;lower bar&quot; for entry &#039;cross the Cumberland, and it&#039;s no wonder nominal Catholics might prefer the Baptist church to the Catholic church in town.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As to why RCs are swimming the Cumberland, I think this says more about the watering down of distinctives in RC teaching and the rise in the Baptist/Evangelical style in &#8216;general, American Christianity&#8217;.  Add to this the generational acculturation common to immigrants holding a faith (RCism) that is still heavily weighted with being an &#8216;immigrant faith&#8217; in &#8211; whether new immigrants to the US (e.g., Hispanics) or migration to fast-growing regions in the South and West that have historically smaller RC populations than the NE and Midwest, not to mention intermarriage and the &#8220;lower bar&#8221; for entry &#8216;cross the Cumberland, and it&#8217;s no wonder nominal Catholics might prefer the Baptist church to the Catholic church in town.</p>
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		<title>By: melxiopp</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/11/16/why-are-catholics-swimming-the-cumberland/comment-page-1/#comment-54127</link>
		<dc:creator>melxiopp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:57:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=36658#comment-54127</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Regarding patristics, there is great respect for patristics in confessional Lutheranism.  My own introduction to the Fathers was in reading the Book of Concord - though I&#039;d never heard of them growing up in a confessional Lutheran congregations.  Chemnitz is also chock full of patristic proofs for the &#039;patristic&#039; basis of Lutheran theology over and against the teachings of Rome (cf. &quot;Examination of the Council of Trent&quot;).

However, once one begins reading the Fathers outside of their quotation in a Lutheran contexct (whether in a Roman, Orthodox or academic context) it starts to become clear that such patristics are really just a form of hagiography and window treatment.  It&#039;s meant to be proof, but it&#039;s really just preaching to the choir and sidestepping arguments and contradictions your audience doesn&#039;t know enough to make.  That is, patristic &quot;proof&quot; from Lutherans very quickly turns into at best a scattered and inconsistent witness to 1% light shining through 99% darkness (from the Lutheran perspective).  That&#039;s why most quotes end up being Scriptural exegesis.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding patristics, there is great respect for patristics in confessional Lutheranism.  My own introduction to the Fathers was in reading the Book of Concord &#8211; though I&#8217;d never heard of them growing up in a confessional Lutheran congregations.  Chemnitz is also chock full of patristic proofs for the &#8216;patristic&#8217; basis of Lutheran theology over and against the teachings of Rome (cf. &#8220;Examination of the Council of Trent&#8221;).</p>
<p>However, once one begins reading the Fathers outside of their quotation in a Lutheran contexct (whether in a Roman, Orthodox or academic context) it starts to become clear that such patristics are really just a form of hagiography and window treatment.  It&#8217;s meant to be proof, but it&#8217;s really just preaching to the choir and sidestepping arguments and contradictions your audience doesn&#8217;t know enough to make.  That is, patristic &#8220;proof&#8221; from Lutherans very quickly turns into at best a scattered and inconsistent witness to 1% light shining through 99% darkness (from the Lutheran perspective).  That&#8217;s why most quotes end up being Scriptural exegesis.</p>
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		<title>By: Pastor Spomer</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/11/16/why-are-catholics-swimming-the-cumberland/comment-page-1/#comment-54122</link>
		<dc:creator>Pastor Spomer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:26:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=36658#comment-54122</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[William and Matthew,
Thank you for your thoughtful responses. I am unacquainted with Harold Bloom.  I’ll have to look into his work.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>William and Matthew,<br />
Thank you for your thoughtful responses. I am unacquainted with Harold Bloom.  I’ll have to look into his work.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/11/16/why-are-catholics-swimming-the-cumberland/comment-page-1/#comment-54117</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Nov 2011 15:36:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=36658#comment-54117</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ethan C.

Technically, since LCMS headquarters are located in a town called Kirkwood, Missouri, just outside St. Louis, joining the Missouri Synod should be called &quot;swimming the Meramec&quot; since that river borders Kirkwood. But since nobody who&#039;s not from this area has ever heard of that river, I guess you could say &quot;swimming the Mississippi and taking a cab.&quot;

:-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ethan C.</p>
<p>Technically, since LCMS headquarters are located in a town called Kirkwood, Missouri, just outside St. Louis, joining the Missouri Synod should be called &#8220;swimming the Meramec&#8221; since that river borders Kirkwood. But since nobody who&#8217;s not from this area has ever heard of that river, I guess you could say &#8220;swimming the Mississippi and taking a cab.&#8221;</p>
<p>:-)</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/11/16/why-are-catholics-swimming-the-cumberland/comment-page-1/#comment-54116</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Nov 2011 15:30:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=36658#comment-54116</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Pastor Spomer,

I think William is mostly correct in his analysis.  Most Catholics I know who converted to another form of Christianity, basically fall into three camps.  There&#039;s the group that is pretty much ignorant of the patristic writings of the Church (as was I).  Then there&#039;s the group that is aware of them, but believes that the institutional church was already falling away or had fallen away during that period, so their writings are of little, if any, authoritative value.  Finally, there&#039;s the group that is aware of them, and takes them seriously, and doesn&#039;t see the modern Catholic Church living up to the doctrines and standards of those writings.

I&#039;ve seen those in the last group turn in three directions when leaving institutional Catholicism.  Many will choose to join a &quot;traditionalist&quot; Catholic community not in full-union with Rome, such as an SSPX chapel, or one affiliated with a sedevacantist Catholic group.  Others, like Rod, have decided upon Eastern Orthodoxy.  Finally, I have met some who have chosen an Anabaptist path (Hutterite, Conservative Mennonite, etc.), despite the lack of apostolic succession. The writer and author David Bercot comes to mind.  

The principal question for these people is not so much whether the Catholic Church fell away, but when it fell away.  Traditionalist Catholics will tell you it was Vatican II.  Orthodox will tell you it was the Great Schism.  And Anabaptists, at least the few willing to venture an opinion, will state the major falling away happened around the time of Constantine.  

I am of the opinion that one&#039;s view of the Patristic era will play heavily into the decision of where one goes after leaving the Roman Catholic Church.  If one accepts the Patristic commentaries as authoritative, it would eliminate most (though not all) &quot;Protestant&quot; churches.  I must confess my lack of personal specific knowledge about Lutheranism, though it has never struck me as having a particularly patristic bent about it, despite certain exterior similarities (liturgy, etc.).  I am open to correction on this matter.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pastor Spomer,</p>
<p>I think William is mostly correct in his analysis.  Most Catholics I know who converted to another form of Christianity, basically fall into three camps.  There&#8217;s the group that is pretty much ignorant of the patristic writings of the Church (as was I).  Then there&#8217;s the group that is aware of them, but believes that the institutional church was already falling away or had fallen away during that period, so their writings are of little, if any, authoritative value.  Finally, there&#8217;s the group that is aware of them, and takes them seriously, and doesn&#8217;t see the modern Catholic Church living up to the doctrines and standards of those writings.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve seen those in the last group turn in three directions when leaving institutional Catholicism.  Many will choose to join a &#8220;traditionalist&#8221; Catholic community not in full-union with Rome, such as an SSPX chapel, or one affiliated with a sedevacantist Catholic group.  Others, like Rod, have decided upon Eastern Orthodoxy.  Finally, I have met some who have chosen an Anabaptist path (Hutterite, Conservative Mennonite, etc.), despite the lack of apostolic succession. The writer and author David Bercot comes to mind.  </p>
<p>The principal question for these people is not so much whether the Catholic Church fell away, but when it fell away.  Traditionalist Catholics will tell you it was Vatican II.  Orthodox will tell you it was the Great Schism.  And Anabaptists, at least the few willing to venture an opinion, will state the major falling away happened around the time of Constantine.  </p>
<p>I am of the opinion that one&#8217;s view of the Patristic era will play heavily into the decision of where one goes after leaving the Roman Catholic Church.  If one accepts the Patristic commentaries as authoritative, it would eliminate most (though not all) &#8220;Protestant&#8221; churches.  I must confess my lack of personal specific knowledge about Lutheranism, though it has never struck me as having a particularly patristic bent about it, despite certain exterior similarities (liturgy, etc.).  I am open to correction on this matter.</p>
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