<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Engineering Is Glorious!</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/11/29/engineering-is-glorious/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/11/29/engineering-is-glorious/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 23 May 2013 03:31:42 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Waste, Production, Boredom &#171; Ironical Coincidings</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/11/29/engineering-is-glorious/comment-page-1/#comment-55245</link>
		<dc:creator>Waste, Production, Boredom &#171; Ironical Coincidings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Dec 2011 04:35:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=37157#comment-55245</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Engineering is Glorious!, a post on the First Thoughts blog about a Christian engineer who equates engineering with raping [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Engineering is Glorious!, a post on the First Thoughts blog about a Christian engineer who equates engineering with raping [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Falling Off the Other Side of the Science Horse &#187; First Thoughts &#124; A First Things Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/11/29/engineering-is-glorious/comment-page-1/#comment-55142</link>
		<dc:creator>Falling Off the Other Side of the Science Horse &#187; First Thoughts &#124; A First Things Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Dec 2011 22:10:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=37157#comment-55142</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] his gracious reply to what was, I admit, a provocatively worded critique of his post on engineering in modernity, Jace Yarbrough asks me for my thoughts on this question: [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] his gracious reply to what was, I admit, a provocatively worded critique of his post on engineering in modernity, Jace Yarbrough asks me for my thoughts on this question: [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: mtm</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/11/29/engineering-is-glorious/comment-page-1/#comment-54983</link>
		<dc:creator>mtm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Dec 2011 14:14:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=37157#comment-54983</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;On that reading, his argument boils down to the assertion that in our time, the profession of engineering has been significantly *more* morally disordered than the other professions that potential engineers are choosing to go into instead – academia, finance, law, etc. Forgive me, but the suggestion is asinine.&quot;

I&#039;m not so sure. One might well avoid all such professions and (1) fall into an unchosen profession--a profession that simply pays bills--or (2) decide that the most worthy use of time is to protest by setting up tents outside businesses and making a fuss.

For better or for worse, not everybody lines up all potential professions and weighs their material and spiritual pros and cons.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;On that reading, his argument boils down to the assertion that in our time, the profession of engineering has been significantly *more* morally disordered than the other professions that potential engineers are choosing to go into instead – academia, finance, law, etc. Forgive me, but the suggestion is asinine.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not so sure. One might well avoid all such professions and (1) fall into an unchosen profession&#8211;a profession that simply pays bills&#8211;or (2) decide that the most worthy use of time is to protest by setting up tents outside businesses and making a fuss.</p>
<p>For better or for worse, not everybody lines up all potential professions and weighs their material and spiritual pros and cons.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: My Sentiments (Almost) Exactly &#124; Humane Pursuits</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/11/29/engineering-is-glorious/comment-page-1/#comment-54971</link>
		<dc:creator>My Sentiments (Almost) Exactly &#124; Humane Pursuits</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Dec 2011 08:00:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=37157#comment-54971</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] recently responded to my last post (“Why No One Wants to be an Engineer”) with this forceful rebuttal. In a nutshell, he argues that “God loves engineering. When he made the human race, he declared [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] recently responded to my last post (“Why No One Wants to be an Engineer”) with this forceful rebuttal. In a nutshell, he argues that “God loves engineering. When he made the human race, he declared [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/11/29/engineering-is-glorious/comment-page-1/#comment-54807</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Forster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov 2011 02:29:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=37157#comment-54807</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[But even if that is what he meant, it hardly helps matters. On that reading, his argument boils down to the assertion that in our time, the profession of engineering has been significantly *more* morally disordered than the other professions that potential engineers are choosing to go into instead - academia, finance, law, etc. Forgive me, but the suggestion is asinine. I think Lewis very badly overstated the extent to which science is disordered in modernity. But even Lewis didn&#039;t suggest that science was so much *more* disordered than other professions that it would have difficulty attracting young people compared with such paradigmatic exemplars of virtue as Wall Street.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But even if that is what he meant, it hardly helps matters. On that reading, his argument boils down to the assertion that in our time, the profession of engineering has been significantly *more* morally disordered than the other professions that potential engineers are choosing to go into instead &#8211; academia, finance, law, etc. Forgive me, but the suggestion is asinine. I think Lewis very badly overstated the extent to which science is disordered in modernity. But even Lewis didn&#8217;t suggest that science was so much *more* disordered than other professions that it would have difficulty attracting young people compared with such paradigmatic exemplars of virtue as Wall Street.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/11/29/engineering-is-glorious/comment-page-1/#comment-54779</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2011 21:14:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=37157#comment-54779</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Greg,

As Jace&#039;s colleague, I think that Craig and Reid are right and you are wrong. True, Jace&#039;s underlying argument is implied rather than stated, but as George MacDonald once said, why write &quot;This is a horse&quot; under a picture of a horse?

You noticed Jace&#039;s repeated references to the natural order, to nourishing creation, and so on. You noticed that he is, in fact, an engineer himself, and a happy one. You even noticed that he&#039;s written two posts on work recently, making similar points to the ones you made in this post.

But--astoundingly in my view--you failed to draw the logical conclusion from all those things, instead deciding that Jace must be intellectually schizophrenic.

There&#039;s a far more obvious conclusion that doesn&#039;t involve questioning Jace&#039;s intelligence.

Jace wasn&#039;t criticizing science (I have yet to meet a Luddite engineer); he was criticizing science as the 21st-century engineer has been taught it. As C.S. Lewis documented in &quot;The Abolition of Man,&quot; the Western view of science has undergone a pronounced shift over time--from discovering nature to conquering nature. While the Enlightenment played a part, Lewis was right to note the unprecedented dominance--and the futility--of the &quot;conquer nature&quot; school in his own time. And Jace is right to note the effects of that dominance half a century later, and to argue implicitly for a rediscovery of science properly understood. 

Fortunately, at least some of your readers grasped this.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg,</p>
<p>As Jace&#8217;s colleague, I think that Craig and Reid are right and you are wrong. True, Jace&#8217;s underlying argument is implied rather than stated, but as George MacDonald once said, why write &#8220;This is a horse&#8221; under a picture of a horse?</p>
<p>You noticed Jace&#8217;s repeated references to the natural order, to nourishing creation, and so on. You noticed that he is, in fact, an engineer himself, and a happy one. You even noticed that he&#8217;s written two posts on work recently, making similar points to the ones you made in this post.</p>
<p>But&#8211;astoundingly in my view&#8211;you failed to draw the logical conclusion from all those things, instead deciding that Jace must be intellectually schizophrenic.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a far more obvious conclusion that doesn&#8217;t involve questioning Jace&#8217;s intelligence.</p>
<p>Jace wasn&#8217;t criticizing science (I have yet to meet a Luddite engineer); he was criticizing science as the 21st-century engineer has been taught it. As C.S. Lewis documented in &#8220;The Abolition of Man,&#8221; the Western view of science has undergone a pronounced shift over time&#8211;from discovering nature to conquering nature. While the Enlightenment played a part, Lewis was right to note the unprecedented dominance&#8211;and the futility&#8211;of the &#8220;conquer nature&#8221; school in his own time. And Jace is right to note the effects of that dominance half a century later, and to argue implicitly for a rediscovery of science properly understood. </p>
<p>Fortunately, at least some of your readers grasped this.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: RL</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/11/29/engineering-is-glorious/comment-page-1/#comment-54772</link>
		<dc:creator>RL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2011 20:40:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=37157#comment-54772</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Second the comments of Bourgeois Oppressor, Kevin and pentamom on the $ front.  A young man who&#039;s reasonably bright can make a lot more money, without working significantly harder, in investment banking or law or medicine, sometimes even in accounting.  And I say that as a lawyer, the son and nephew of engineers, and the friend of several patent attorneys who got engineering degrees before figuring out the foregoing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Second the comments of Bourgeois Oppressor, Kevin and pentamom on the $ front.  A young man who&#8217;s reasonably bright can make a lot more money, without working significantly harder, in investment banking or law or medicine, sometimes even in accounting.  And I say that as a lawyer, the son and nephew of engineers, and the friend of several patent attorneys who got engineering degrees before figuring out the foregoing.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/11/29/engineering-is-glorious/comment-page-1/#comment-54771</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Forster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2011 20:35:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=37157#comment-54771</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What are you seeing in the article that draws this distinction? Here are a few direct quotes from the article:

&lt;i&gt;I propose there might be one more factor discouraging high school seniors from choosing a STEM degree: their humanity.

“But the goal of engineering,” as recently expressed by one of my (uncharacteristically thoughtful) engineering buddies, “is the exploitation of nature. That’s why we approach a problem with the assumption that nature will be working against us.” At the risk of sounding like a tree-hugging Avatar fanatic, there is something inhumane about that.

I would argue that as humans, we further intuit a particular responsibility to look after her [nature]. Majoring in a STEM subject requires denying that intuition.&lt;/i&gt;

Certainly he &lt;i&gt;could&lt;/i&gt; have written an article such as the one you describe. But that is not the article he in fact wrote.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What are you seeing in the article that draws this distinction? Here are a few direct quotes from the article:</p>
<p><i>I propose there might be one more factor discouraging high school seniors from choosing a STEM degree: their humanity.</p>
<p>“But the goal of engineering,” as recently expressed by one of my (uncharacteristically thoughtful) engineering buddies, “is the exploitation of nature. That’s why we approach a problem with the assumption that nature will be working against us.” At the risk of sounding like a tree-hugging Avatar fanatic, there is something inhumane about that.</p>
<p>I would argue that as humans, we further intuit a particular responsibility to look after her [nature]. Majoring in a STEM subject requires denying that intuition.</i></p>
<p>Certainly he <i>could</i> have written an article such as the one you describe. But that is not the article he in fact wrote.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Reid</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/11/29/engineering-is-glorious/comment-page-1/#comment-54769</link>
		<dc:creator>Reid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2011 20:27:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=37157#comment-54769</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think you may misunderstand Yarbrough’s article. His concern seems to be not engineering per se but engineering as our society currently teaches and practices it.

As I recall, Gnosticism sees the material Creation as bad (so we need to escape it) or as meaningless to those who possess the right knowledge (in which case we might as well indulge fleshly desires fully). In saying, “…we are trained to apply knowledge indiscriminately—no wisdom required. Questions like ‘What’s the physical world for and how ought I approach it?’ are never even alluded to in our curriculum,” Yarbrough appears to be anti-Gnostic, suggesting that the material Creation has both a meaning and a right use. Do not the Apostle Paul (Romans 1) and St. Athanasius (On the Incarnation) both teach that the material Creation is, in fact, the means by which the invisible God reveals Himself (in particular by the physical body of our Lord)?

The Biblical narrative ends in a city, yet the Lord stops the builders at Babel. Why? Lest men accomplish everything that they plan to do. Why is this so bad? Because it leads men into the slavery of fulfilling their own wills, becoming whatever they choose to be, rather than into the freedom of realizing their nature as creatures made to grow into the image of God.

The Creation is not so much neutral raw material merely awaiting the imposition of our wills (that is, in fact, a secular view). Rather it has a nature, namely to reveal the Son of God, Who made it. It helps us to that end if we use it according to its nature (and, conversely, if we grow in the knowledge of God, we will better understand the nature of the Creation). Modern engineering and science, however, are primarily about predicting the behavior of the Creation and thus manipulating it to the ends we choose (i.e., fulfilling our wills). It should trouble and grieve us that our capacity to manipulate the Creation has run far ahead of our wisdom in knowing what manipulations are profitable for us and for it (the most obvious example of this being our medical technologies that allow us safely to commit mass murder of the unborn).

Engineering, per se, may well be “very good,” but engineering as we practice it may be doing us tremendous harm. As I read it, Mr. Yarbrough is helpfully suggesting that there is a difference between the two.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you may misunderstand Yarbrough’s article. His concern seems to be not engineering per se but engineering as our society currently teaches and practices it.</p>
<p>As I recall, Gnosticism sees the material Creation as bad (so we need to escape it) or as meaningless to those who possess the right knowledge (in which case we might as well indulge fleshly desires fully). In saying, “…we are trained to apply knowledge indiscriminately—no wisdom required. Questions like ‘What’s the physical world for and how ought I approach it?’ are never even alluded to in our curriculum,” Yarbrough appears to be anti-Gnostic, suggesting that the material Creation has both a meaning and a right use. Do not the Apostle Paul (Romans 1) and St. Athanasius (On the Incarnation) both teach that the material Creation is, in fact, the means by which the invisible God reveals Himself (in particular by the physical body of our Lord)?</p>
<p>The Biblical narrative ends in a city, yet the Lord stops the builders at Babel. Why? Lest men accomplish everything that they plan to do. Why is this so bad? Because it leads men into the slavery of fulfilling their own wills, becoming whatever they choose to be, rather than into the freedom of realizing their nature as creatures made to grow into the image of God.</p>
<p>The Creation is not so much neutral raw material merely awaiting the imposition of our wills (that is, in fact, a secular view). Rather it has a nature, namely to reveal the Son of God, Who made it. It helps us to that end if we use it according to its nature (and, conversely, if we grow in the knowledge of God, we will better understand the nature of the Creation). Modern engineering and science, however, are primarily about predicting the behavior of the Creation and thus manipulating it to the ends we choose (i.e., fulfilling our wills). It should trouble and grieve us that our capacity to manipulate the Creation has run far ahead of our wisdom in knowing what manipulations are profitable for us and for it (the most obvious example of this being our medical technologies that allow us safely to commit mass murder of the unborn).</p>
<p>Engineering, per se, may well be “very good,” but engineering as we practice it may be doing us tremendous harm. As I read it, Mr. Yarbrough is helpfully suggesting that there is a difference between the two.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2011/11/29/engineering-is-glorious/comment-page-1/#comment-54765</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Forster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2011 19:45:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=37157#comment-54765</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I strongly object to the suggestion that buiding bridges that are twice as strong is in some way morally or spiritually arbitrary, an act of mere will or power (&quot;if I can do that, why shouldn’t I?&quot;). To make a bridge more structurally sound is a profoundly moral act - just ask some people whose loved ones died in the big bridge collapse in Minneapolis a few years ago.

I take it that what you&#039;re trying to do here is insert the necessary &quot;caveats&quot; (see above). But your own approach shows how neceseary it is to begin with the affirmation of the basic moral and spiritual goodness of the activity (whether engineering or anything else that serves authentic human good) and only after that is fully and robustly established move on to the caveats.

Contrary to your characterization, the original article that I linked to is definitely objecting to &quot;engineering itself per se.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I strongly object to the suggestion that buiding bridges that are twice as strong is in some way morally or spiritually arbitrary, an act of mere will or power (&#8220;if I can do that, why shouldn’t I?&#8221;). To make a bridge more structurally sound is a profoundly moral act &#8211; just ask some people whose loved ones died in the big bridge collapse in Minneapolis a few years ago.</p>
<p>I take it that what you&#8217;re trying to do here is insert the necessary &#8220;caveats&#8221; (see above). But your own approach shows how neceseary it is to begin with the affirmation of the basic moral and spiritual goodness of the activity (whether engineering or anything else that serves authentic human good) and only after that is fully and robustly established move on to the caveats.</p>
<p>Contrary to your characterization, the original article that I linked to is definitely objecting to &#8220;engineering itself per se.&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
