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	<title>Comments on: More on Giving Away Life and Liberty</title>
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		<title>By: Stephen M. Barr</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/06/05/more-on-giving-away-life-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-65382</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen M. Barr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jun 2012 18:06:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=43923#comment-65382</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear Tom,

One must ask: Is it ever morally permissible to promise not to do something? Clearly, if it something that I have no moral right to do in any case, then such a promise is superfluous. (Why promise not to steal, when I am already bound by the moral law not to steal.)

If I can promise not to do something that otherwise it would be moral for me to do, then 
I am allowed to bind myself not to exercise certain rights.

This seems to me obvious.

The &quot;right to life&quot; is a different sort of thing than, say, the right to property. My property rights mean that you cannot take my property. I can, however, decide to give you my property, in which case it ceases to be my property. That is not an &quot;alienation&quot; of of my property rights, but an exercise of them. If it was my property, it was mine to give away. 

Life is different. You cannot kill me, but neither can I authorize you to kill me. 

It is kind of misleading to say that I have a &quot;right to my life&quot; in the same sense that I have a right to property or to speech or to marriage. 
I have a right to speak or not to speak, to possess my property or to give it away, to marry or not to marry. I do not, however, have a right to live or not to live. My &quot;right to life&quot; is better understood as an obligation on everyone (including myself) not to kill me. 

It seems, then, that the word &quot;right&quot; is used in two ways. (a) There are rights (such as the right not to be murdered, not to be raped, etc) which are really better thought of as prohibitions (not to murder, not to rape, etc.) (b) There are rights to do or not to do certain things (speak, marry, have property).

I suppose one could think of type (a) &quot;rights&quot; as &quot;inalienable&quot;. But that seems a somewhat backwards way to speak about moral prohibitions.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Tom,</p>
<p>One must ask: Is it ever morally permissible to promise not to do something? Clearly, if it something that I have no moral right to do in any case, then such a promise is superfluous. (Why promise not to steal, when I am already bound by the moral law not to steal.)</p>
<p>If I can promise not to do something that otherwise it would be moral for me to do, then<br />
I am allowed to bind myself not to exercise certain rights.</p>
<p>This seems to me obvious.</p>
<p>The &#8220;right to life&#8221; is a different sort of thing than, say, the right to property. My property rights mean that you cannot take my property. I can, however, decide to give you my property, in which case it ceases to be my property. That is not an &#8220;alienation&#8221; of of my property rights, but an exercise of them. If it was my property, it was mine to give away. </p>
<p>Life is different. You cannot kill me, but neither can I authorize you to kill me. </p>
<p>It is kind of misleading to say that I have a &#8220;right to my life&#8221; in the same sense that I have a right to property or to speech or to marriage.<br />
I have a right to speak or not to speak, to possess my property or to give it away, to marry or not to marry. I do not, however, have a right to live or not to live. My &#8220;right to life&#8221; is better understood as an obligation on everyone (including myself) not to kill me. </p>
<p>It seems, then, that the word &#8220;right&#8221; is used in two ways. (a) There are rights (such as the right not to be murdered, not to be raped, etc) which are really better thought of as prohibitions (not to murder, not to rape, etc.) (b) There are rights to do or not to do certain things (speak, marry, have property).</p>
<p>I suppose one could think of type (a) &#8220;rights&#8221; as &#8220;inalienable&#8221;. But that seems a somewhat backwards way to speak about moral prohibitions.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael PS</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/06/05/more-on-giving-away-life-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-65305</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael PS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jun 2012 18:09:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=43923#comment-65305</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Stephen M Barr &amp; Tom

Precisely the difference between simple and solemn vows is that solemn vows operate &quot;in rem.&quot;  A simple vow of perfect and perpetual chastity renders marriage illicit; solemn profession renders it void.

Similarly, in France, until 1789, a solemn vow of poverty meant that a person could not acquire title to property, by inheritance, or inter vivos and this was true of the law in most Catholic countries.  Hence, religious were said to be &quot;civiliter mortuus,&quot; dead for civil purposes.

In England, one of the earliest examples of a trust was when one Ricardus Le Muliner gave a house and garden to Oxford town council &quot;ad opus fratrum&quot; [to the use of the (Franciscan) friars] whose rule forbade them to own property.  The pious testator hoped to avoid the prohibition, by vesting the legal title in the council, with a mere moral obligation to let the friars use it.

So these do appear to be cases of the relinquishment of the right itself.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen M Barr &amp; Tom</p>
<p>Precisely the difference between simple and solemn vows is that solemn vows operate &#8220;in rem.&#8221;  A simple vow of perfect and perpetual chastity renders marriage illicit; solemn profession renders it void.</p>
<p>Similarly, in France, until 1789, a solemn vow of poverty meant that a person could not acquire title to property, by inheritance, or inter vivos and this was true of the law in most Catholic countries.  Hence, religious were said to be &#8220;civiliter mortuus,&#8221; dead for civil purposes.</p>
<p>In England, one of the earliest examples of a trust was when one Ricardus Le Muliner gave a house and garden to Oxford town council &#8220;ad opus fratrum&#8221; [to the use of the (Franciscan) friars] whose rule forbade them to own property.  The pious testator hoped to avoid the prohibition, by vesting the legal title in the council, with a mere moral obligation to let the friars use it.</p>
<p>So these do appear to be cases of the relinquishment of the right itself.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/06/05/more-on-giving-away-life-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-65288</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jun 2012 16:34:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=43923#comment-65288</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Stephen, I don&#039;t think I understand your position. It would seem to undercut Mr. Rogers&#039; original point about what it means for a right to be inalienable. His assertion was that we are not free to surrender certain rights. It isn&#039;t that they shouldn&#039;t be taken from us, it&#039;s that we shouldn&#039;t give them away. 
If one binds himself by a vow of obedience or poverty, it seems that one has indeed surrendered the right to liberty or property. If not, can we really say that one has &quot;bound himself&quot; by his vow? 
To take your example of celibacy, a man has a right to marry, and can choose not to exercise that right. As you say, choosing not to exercise it does not eradicate the right. If the man remains a bachelor until he&#039;s 50, he still retains the right to marry. He can marry at 51, or continue on as a bachelor, as he chooses. I think, though, that if he takes a vow of celibacy, that&#039;s the equivalent of renouncing his right to marriage. It is not the same thing as merely choosing not to exercise his right to marry.
And does it matter, really, if the vow is undertaken voluntarily? According to Mr. Rogers, it certainly does not, precisely because certain rights cannot be voluntarily surrendered.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen, I don&#8217;t think I understand your position. It would seem to undercut Mr. Rogers&#8217; original point about what it means for a right to be inalienable. His assertion was that we are not free to surrender certain rights. It isn&#8217;t that they shouldn&#8217;t be taken from us, it&#8217;s that we shouldn&#8217;t give them away.<br />
If one binds himself by a vow of obedience or poverty, it seems that one has indeed surrendered the right to liberty or property. If not, can we really say that one has &#8220;bound himself&#8221; by his vow?<br />
To take your example of celibacy, a man has a right to marry, and can choose not to exercise that right. As you say, choosing not to exercise it does not eradicate the right. If the man remains a bachelor until he&#8217;s 50, he still retains the right to marry. He can marry at 51, or continue on as a bachelor, as he chooses. I think, though, that if he takes a vow of celibacy, that&#8217;s the equivalent of renouncing his right to marriage. It is not the same thing as merely choosing not to exercise his right to marry.<br />
And does it matter, really, if the vow is undertaken voluntarily? According to Mr. Rogers, it certainly does not, precisely because certain rights cannot be voluntarily surrendered.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen M. Barr</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/06/05/more-on-giving-away-life-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-65275</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen M. Barr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jun 2012 15:50:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=43923#comment-65275</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the answer to the &quot;problem&quot; raised by Caro is quite simple. Renouncing property is not the same thing as renouncing the right to property. I may have the right to own property, and yet choose not to exercise that right, just as I may have a right to speak and yet choose to remain silent. A man may have the right to marry and yet choose to forgo marriage. 

I may also bind myself by a vow to perpetual silence, or perpetual celibacy, or poverty. Those are vows never to exercise certain natural rights. As long as the vows are freely made, my rights have not been alienated. 

I may have a right to do something and also a right not to do that thing --- including the right to decide never to do it.

The supposed &quot;problem&quot; is illusory.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the answer to the &#8220;problem&#8221; raised by Caro is quite simple. Renouncing property is not the same thing as renouncing the right to property. I may have the right to own property, and yet choose not to exercise that right, just as I may have a right to speak and yet choose to remain silent. A man may have the right to marry and yet choose to forgo marriage. </p>
<p>I may also bind myself by a vow to perpetual silence, or perpetual celibacy, or poverty. Those are vows never to exercise certain natural rights. As long as the vows are freely made, my rights have not been alienated. </p>
<p>I may have a right to do something and also a right not to do that thing &#8212; including the right to decide never to do it.</p>
<p>The supposed &#8220;problem&#8221; is illusory.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/06/05/more-on-giving-away-life-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-65259</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jun 2012 12:17:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=43923#comment-65259</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree Mary. I think the response to Caro&#039;s objection needs to be more fully developed. (And I don&#039;t think the question of sinful commands from a monk&#039;s Superior matters. A Superior&#039;s commands might all be morally acceptable, but if one has sworn to obey them, one has still alienated his liberty, no?)

If we have a pass to alienate our unalienable rights for religious reasons, can we do it for other reasons? What about indentured servitude? Military service?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree Mary. I think the response to Caro&#8217;s objection needs to be more fully developed. (And I don&#8217;t think the question of sinful commands from a monk&#8217;s Superior matters. A Superior&#8217;s commands might all be morally acceptable, but if one has sworn to obey them, one has still alienated his liberty, no?)</p>
<p>If we have a pass to alienate our unalienable rights for religious reasons, can we do it for other reasons? What about indentured servitude? Military service?</p>
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		<title>By: James Locke</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/06/05/more-on-giving-away-life-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-65244</link>
		<dc:creator>James Locke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jun 2012 03:49:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=43923#comment-65244</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just a thought. Liberty and license, at least for John Locke are different. You do not have a right to do whatever you will.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a thought. Liberty and license, at least for John Locke are different. You do not have a right to do whatever you will.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/06/05/more-on-giving-away-life-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-65238</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jun 2012 00:46:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=43923#comment-65238</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ah, but if we are not at liberty to swear binding oaths is not that an alienation of our liberty?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, but if we are not at liberty to swear binding oaths is not that an alienation of our liberty?</p>
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		<title>By: Sally R.</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/06/05/more-on-giving-away-life-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-65234</link>
		<dc:creator>Sally R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jun 2012 23:16:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=43923#comment-65234</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Quite honestly, I don&#039;t think that the 18th century political views regarding the proper limits of autonomy take account of Christian understandings of sacrifice, love, and one&#039;s relationship to God.  

Did John Locke ever think through whether the vows of obedience and poverty a sister in a monastery makes to her abbess is legitimate within his political philosophy?  Or whether it is a good thing to lay down one&#039;s life for a friend?  I kind of doubt it.  

These political theories seem necessarily limited to a narrower horizon.  They are really assertions about the proper limits of government, rather than metaphysical truth claims.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quite honestly, I don&#8217;t think that the 18th century political views regarding the proper limits of autonomy take account of Christian understandings of sacrifice, love, and one&#8217;s relationship to God.  </p>
<p>Did John Locke ever think through whether the vows of obedience and poverty a sister in a monastery makes to her abbess is legitimate within his political philosophy?  Or whether it is a good thing to lay down one&#8217;s life for a friend?  I kind of doubt it.  </p>
<p>These political theories seem necessarily limited to a narrower horizon.  They are really assertions about the proper limits of government, rather than metaphysical truth claims.</p>
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