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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Just Leave&#8221; or Just Assent?</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/06/25/just-leave-vs-just-assent/</link>
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		<title>By: DK</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/06/25/just-leave-vs-just-assent/comment-page-1/#comment-66202</link>
		<dc:creator>DK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2012 18:38:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=44635#comment-66202</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Francis,

By your comments I can see you truly want to be loving to everyone, but it seems you are still missing the point.  This is the crucial question: Do you assent to the authority of the pope and the bishops?  If you can&#039;t assent and publicly dissent, is it time to go?  To be honest I am not sure what is best, but to stay in the church which makes you so angry, rebellious, and unhappy doesn&#039;t seem to make much sense. It is like someone being in the Girl Scouts and then saying&quot; I hate working for the badges and that stupid pledge has got to go.Let&#039;s see if I can convince some of the other girls to join me in changing all of this.  We are surely being victimized in this situation.&quot;  The others girls who are happily gathering their badges and love the whole program find their group in a constant state of turmoil and confusion.  Using your definition, Is this showing love, gentleness, and living Jesus?  Of course, an organization is not the same as one&#039;s religion, but no one is forced to join or stay in the Catholic church.  From my personal experience, dissenting Catholics preach a lot about being so loving, but they refuse to see their actions are anything but loving to everyone else.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Francis,</p>
<p>By your comments I can see you truly want to be loving to everyone, but it seems you are still missing the point.  This is the crucial question: Do you assent to the authority of the pope and the bishops?  If you can&#8217;t assent and publicly dissent, is it time to go?  To be honest I am not sure what is best, but to stay in the church which makes you so angry, rebellious, and unhappy doesn&#8217;t seem to make much sense. It is like someone being in the Girl Scouts and then saying&#8221; I hate working for the badges and that stupid pledge has got to go.Let&#8217;s see if I can convince some of the other girls to join me in changing all of this.  We are surely being victimized in this situation.&#8221;  The others girls who are happily gathering their badges and love the whole program find their group in a constant state of turmoil and confusion.  Using your definition, Is this showing love, gentleness, and living Jesus?  Of course, an organization is not the same as one&#8217;s religion, but no one is forced to join or stay in the Catholic church.  From my personal experience, dissenting Catholics preach a lot about being so loving, but they refuse to see their actions are anything but loving to everyone else.</p>
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		<title>By: Francis Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/06/25/just-leave-vs-just-assent/comment-page-1/#comment-66151</link>
		<dc:creator>Francis Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2012 03:58:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=44635#comment-66151</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I want to be very respectful here and I hope not to be condemned for having a contrary view.  However, it seems the major focus in both the piece above and the comments is whether the Church is asking people to go.  There are vague references to His Holiness seeking a smaller, more devout Church &amp; of course, Bill Donohue.  But really, the point the editorialists are making is that Catholics should choose to leave if they are so at odds with the hierarchy -- not that the hierarchy is asking them to leave.  You can quote St. Augustine or talk about layers of truth.  The heart of the dissenters is not about legalistic distinctions but about love, gentleness and living Jesus.  It is the lack of this coming from the hierarchy that calls many to leave.  Please be respectful of that and of my comments.  Thank you.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want to be very respectful here and I hope not to be condemned for having a contrary view.  However, it seems the major focus in both the piece above and the comments is whether the Church is asking people to go.  There are vague references to His Holiness seeking a smaller, more devout Church &amp; of course, Bill Donohue.  But really, the point the editorialists are making is that Catholics should choose to leave if they are so at odds with the hierarchy &#8212; not that the hierarchy is asking them to leave.  You can quote St. Augustine or talk about layers of truth.  The heart of the dissenters is not about legalistic distinctions but about love, gentleness and living Jesus.  It is the lack of this coming from the hierarchy that calls many to leave.  Please be respectful of that and of my comments.  Thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael PS</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/06/25/just-leave-vs-just-assent/comment-page-1/#comment-66067</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael PS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2012 07:47:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=44635#comment-66067</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[DK

Speaking of those bishops who were &quot;tolerating for Christ&#039;s name&#039;s sake the false apostles,&quot; St Augustine says [Ep 43:22] &quot;Nevertheless, even if they were actually committed, and that under our own eyes, and we bore with them for the sake of unity, letting the tares alone on account of the wheat, whosoever with open heart receives the Holy Scriptures would pronounce us not only free from blame, but worthy of no small praise.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DK</p>
<p>Speaking of those bishops who were &#8220;tolerating for Christ&#8217;s name&#8217;s sake the false apostles,&#8221; St Augustine says [Ep 43:22] &#8220;Nevertheless, even if they were actually committed, and that under our own eyes, and we bore with them for the sake of unity, letting the tares alone on account of the wheat, whosoever with open heart receives the Holy Scriptures would pronounce us not only free from blame, but worthy of no small praise.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: DK</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/06/25/just-leave-vs-just-assent/comment-page-1/#comment-66002</link>
		<dc:creator>DK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jun 2012 16:01:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=44635#comment-66002</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David Nickol

 You are correct that we must always be concerned about those who are lax or are nonobservant Catholics. However, the Catholics  being spoken about here are the militant kind who are staying only in the church to change it.  They are trying to lead others away from the church&#039;s teachings and very often causing public scandal and dissension.  Yes, Jesus was a very compassionate person, but do you really think he would have supported apostles who knowingly and directly preached the opposite message of Him? Jesus is the one and only truth, there is not my truth and your truth or whatever makes you feel good about yourself. Either the Catholic church was founded by Jesus and was charged to speak His truth, which is the church&#039;s claim, or it is just an organization  which sways and bends with public opinion. That is what is at stake here!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Nickol</p>
<p> You are correct that we must always be concerned about those who are lax or are nonobservant Catholics. However, the Catholics  being spoken about here are the militant kind who are staying only in the church to change it.  They are trying to lead others away from the church&#8217;s teachings and very often causing public scandal and dissension.  Yes, Jesus was a very compassionate person, but do you really think he would have supported apostles who knowingly and directly preached the opposite message of Him? Jesus is the one and only truth, there is not my truth and your truth or whatever makes you feel good about yourself. Either the Catholic church was founded by Jesus and was charged to speak His truth, which is the church&#8217;s claim, or it is just an organization  which sways and bends with public opinion. That is what is at stake here!</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Currie</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/06/25/just-leave-vs-just-assent/comment-page-1/#comment-65996</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Currie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jun 2012 14:00:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=44635#comment-65996</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To quote Fr. Neuhaus when he was addressing a similar issue,&quot;I did not become Catholic to become protestant&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To quote Fr. Neuhaus when he was addressing a similar issue,&#8221;I did not become Catholic to become protestant&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael PS</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/06/25/just-leave-vs-just-assent/comment-page-1/#comment-65991</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael PS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jun 2012 11:53:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=44635#comment-65991</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David Nickol

Whilst all truths are equally true, the motive of credulity may be different.  In the case of doctrines divinely revealed, as the doctrine of the one Person in Christ, one believes them on the authority of God who speaks.  On the other hand, one believes Ephesus I was a general council and that Ephesus II was not, but, rather, a “robber synod,” on the faith of the Church and her promised divine guidance.

What the article does bring out is that any attempt to define the Church by its teaching, or the faithful by their tenets is bound to end in tautology – “The Catholic faith is the faith that Catholics hold” only works, if “Catholics” has a definite meaning in extension and, if “Catholics” is then defined as “those who hold the Catholic faith,” one has produced, not a test, but a vicious circle.

In fact, “Catholics” have traditionally been defined as “those in visible communion with the see of Rome.”  This excludes those who refuse communion with the Pope or bishops in communion with him on the one hand and those that Rome has excommunicated on the other. 
 
It is a test remarkably easy of application.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Nickol</p>
<p>Whilst all truths are equally true, the motive of credulity may be different.  In the case of doctrines divinely revealed, as the doctrine of the one Person in Christ, one believes them on the authority of God who speaks.  On the other hand, one believes Ephesus I was a general council and that Ephesus II was not, but, rather, a “robber synod,” on the faith of the Church and her promised divine guidance.</p>
<p>What the article does bring out is that any attempt to define the Church by its teaching, or the faithful by their tenets is bound to end in tautology – “The Catholic faith is the faith that Catholics hold” only works, if “Catholics” has a definite meaning in extension and, if “Catholics” is then defined as “those who hold the Catholic faith,” one has produced, not a test, but a vicious circle.</p>
<p>In fact, “Catholics” have traditionally been defined as “those in visible communion with the see of Rome.”  This excludes those who refuse communion with the Pope or bishops in communion with him on the one hand and those that Rome has excommunicated on the other. </p>
<p>It is a test remarkably easy of application.</p>
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		<title>By: Crowhill</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/06/25/just-leave-vs-just-assent/comment-page-1/#comment-65990</link>
		<dc:creator>Crowhill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jun 2012 11:40:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=44635#comment-65990</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Generally speaking you can only find that sort of &quot;love it or leave it&quot; attitude on the Internet. When you speak with a real priest who deals with real people&#039;s struggles in the real world you almost always find a much gentler attitude. Perhaps that&#039;s because the priest isn&#039;t just mouthing off on a blog, but actually believes he has accountability to God for people&#039;s souls. 

If you want to know what Catholicism is about, go to mass and go to confession and don&#039;t listen to the garbage on blogs.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Generally speaking you can only find that sort of &#8220;love it or leave it&#8221; attitude on the Internet. When you speak with a real priest who deals with real people&#8217;s struggles in the real world you almost always find a much gentler attitude. Perhaps that&#8217;s because the priest isn&#8217;t just mouthing off on a blog, but actually believes he has accountability to God for people&#8217;s souls. </p>
<p>If you want to know what Catholicism is about, go to mass and go to confession and don&#8217;t listen to the garbage on blogs.</p>
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		<title>By: Gian</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/06/25/just-leave-vs-just-assent/comment-page-1/#comment-65988</link>
		<dc:creator>Gian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jun 2012 06:42:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=44635#comment-65988</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David Nickol,
 The tension you noticed is a consequence of paradoxical nature of the Catholic Church-it is both a divine and a human institution. 
Some truths are revealed, by Jesus Himself. Other truths are inspired by Holy Spirit and yet others are product of human reason struggling with the divine truths. 
A little book to read is Paradoxes of Catholicism by Benson.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Nickol,<br />
 The tension you noticed is a consequence of paradoxical nature of the Catholic Church-it is both a divine and a human institution.<br />
Some truths are revealed, by Jesus Himself. Other truths are inspired by Holy Spirit and yet others are product of human reason struggling with the divine truths.<br />
A little book to read is Paradoxes of Catholicism by Benson.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Melendez</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/06/25/just-leave-vs-just-assent/comment-page-1/#comment-65973</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Melendez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2012 20:36:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=44635#comment-65973</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;One would think that if something is true, it’s true, but this is not exactly the case when there is a hierarchy of truths.&quot;

Apparently, David is not aware that the Law of the Excluded Middle is not the only possibility. But even that is not what is going on in Catholicism, religion not being mathematics.

When I worked in intelligence, we always had a confidence value associated with the information we provided ranging from &quot;we&#039;re sure&quot; down to &quot;it&#039;s a good possibility&quot;. The levels of &quot;truths&quot;, I suspect are more of that type.

One might remember the saying, &quot;There known knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns.&quot; Though credited with it, Rumsfeld did not originate it. It&#039;s from the intelligence field. Politics being what it is, I lost a lot of respect for the media when they made fun of it, demonstrating their own ignorance.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;One would think that if something is true, it’s true, but this is not exactly the case when there is a hierarchy of truths.&#8221;</p>
<p>Apparently, David is not aware that the Law of the Excluded Middle is not the only possibility. But even that is not what is going on in Catholicism, religion not being mathematics.</p>
<p>When I worked in intelligence, we always had a confidence value associated with the information we provided ranging from &#8220;we&#8217;re sure&#8221; down to &#8220;it&#8217;s a good possibility&#8221;. The levels of &#8220;truths&#8221;, I suspect are more of that type.</p>
<p>One might remember the saying, &#8220;There known knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns.&#8221; Though credited with it, Rumsfeld did not originate it. It&#8217;s from the intelligence field. Politics being what it is, I lost a lot of respect for the media when they made fun of it, demonstrating their own ignorance.</p>
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		<title>By: Liam</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/06/25/just-leave-vs-just-assent/comment-page-1/#comment-65968</link>
		<dc:creator>Liam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2012 19:45:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=44635#comment-65968</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, this is a northern European Catholic problem (and American Catholicism is heavily inflected by northern European culture). In really Roman Catholicism, there is not this discomfort over the gap between norms and reality; rather, everyone is part of the family, and we muddle along. Really Roman Catholicism is humane in not having an expectation of high correlation between norms and reality. By the same token, this makes it vulnerable to hypocrisy and excessive deference to persons. (All cultures are two-edged swords; you pick your poison.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, this is a northern European Catholic problem (and American Catholicism is heavily inflected by northern European culture). In really Roman Catholicism, there is not this discomfort over the gap between norms and reality; rather, everyone is part of the family, and we muddle along. Really Roman Catholicism is humane in not having an expectation of high correlation between norms and reality. By the same token, this makes it vulnerable to hypocrisy and excessive deference to persons. (All cultures are two-edged swords; you pick your poison.)</p>
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