So, again, what’s wrong with Publius being shy of a ban

To quote Publius: “I would favor a return to allowing local communities to ban the sale and distribution of pornography.”

I’m afraid I don’t understand how proposing bans is “shy of a ban”.

I’d much rather a social stance of “pornography is reprehensible in every way and under no conditions can be made to be found acceptable, but I guess the current construal of freedom of speech, plus the practical difficulties of stamping it out, means we have to put up with.”

And I confess I’m likewise unclear as to how this would be implemented without regulation or a ban. What exactly are you proposing, policy-wise?

So, again, what’s wrong with Publius being shy of a ban, knowing the difficulty and probable unintended consequences of a ban, while ardently supporting a movement to get hotels to stop providing it?

“Do ‘sin taxes’ betoken approval?”

Sin taxes do not imply that as long as the thing is done in a certain manner, the thing is free from public opprobrium. It’s just a tax, and from what I hear lately, taxes aren’t about whether something is permitted or not. ;-)

but a more pertinent example might be regulation of cigarette production. And yes, regulation of cigarette production implies that as long as cigarettes are produced in a certain manner, society as a whole is cool with their existence, even if we’d rather you didn’t consume them.

I don’t ever want to communicate any message that society as a whole is cool with the existence of pornography AND I don’t want anyone to consume it. I’d much rather a social stance of “pornography is reprehensible in every way and under no conditions can be made to be found acceptable, but I guess the current construal of freedom of speech, plus the practical difficulties of stamping it out, means we have to put up with.”

Would those paragons of virtue, the porn producers, police themselves?

Well, actually, movie producers (who aren’t held in much higher regard, actually) in large measure already police themselves; you’ve heard of the MPAA and its rating system, I presume? That’s an entirely private effort, no government involved at any point (though a surprising number of people seem to think an “R” rating has some force of law).

There’s also the ESRB for video games. Again, entirely private, no law required.

Then there are what I’ve been talking about and pointing you to all along, fair trade consortiums that offer (private) certification so long as they are given access and can verify that a company is following certain policies. Can you name the three ones I’ve linked to up to now?

Don’t worry, more are coming. Hey, here’s another one, in another industry known for serious problems.

So, no demonstrated need for the “Feds” to “step in”.

Any types of porn that should be banned instead of ‘regulated’?

Well, the ones that are made with violent coercion, in violation of already-legislated ages of consent, or existing laws regarding safety are already ‘banned’ in that sense. Assuming adults participating voluntarily, that covers most bases in terms of banning.

But a certification would go further, ensuring that actors were compensated fairly and were provided with suitable working conditions (I presume you won’t object to that one; or do you object to ‘fair trade coffee’?), were not coerced in less-than-violent ways (again, hardly unprecedented), and so forth.

Now, this final link isn’t particularly safe for work, but is relevant: here. There’re already people working towards such private oversight and certification.

Maybe there’s no way to do such private oversight of porn production, though it’s worked in many other industries. In any case, it seems that before regulation, it ought to at least be attempted.

Still awaiting your response as to how your Fair Trade Porn regulatory regime would work … Would those paragons of virtue, the porn producers, police themselves? Would a statement along the lines of those applied to animals “that no porn stars were hurt in the production of this film” meet your standards? Or should the Feds step in and regulate the industry and green light porn films? Any types of porn that should be banned instead of ‘regulated’? Even a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer to these questions would be appreciated….

And, sure enough, at 3:39 pm… well, read what he wrote.

In any case, ‘regulation’ doesn’t imply approval. Do ‘sin taxes’ betoken approval?

Could you explain how you would ‘regulate’ porn? Would porn stars be inspected like the “animals” you referred to (i.e., “no porn stars were harmed in the making of this film” — how considerate!). Would we create a federal department of porn regulation? What kinds of porn would be regulated or is there some porn that is simply beyond the pale? Would the federal porn regulators be allowed to intervene when the sex gets too rough? Would you have the Federal Government appoint a Fair Trade Porn Czar?

Maybe because there’s no way of “regulating” it without tacitly approving the practices that pass muster of the regulations?

And I don’t see why you have such difficulty with the idea of someone stopping short of calling for banning it, while desiring that it not be consumed and asking various purchasers to cease purchasing it. Banning it would require a Herculean effort that could well result in a good deal of social harm without a concomitant amount of success (War on Drugs, anyone?) Asking hotels to stop purchasing and reselling it simply requires making a request, and the hotels simply have to pull the plug. No police raids, no piles and piles of regulation of the film industry to make sure they’re not “committing porn,” nothing. Just a request for, and a consent to, a socially responsible action.

(And, sadly, I win my bet. Neither of the words “yes” or “no” appear in your reply.)

And as for a lack of violence and coercion as your “Porn Fair Trade” standard, how would you measure that?

Quick question: How are problems with exploitation of supply-chain workers identified today?

I invite you to look into how existing fair trade standards are administered. Inspection of facilities, interviews with workers, and so forth. Precisely for reasons of reassuring moviegoers, existing studios enlist ASPCA inspectors to allow them to certify that “No animals were harmed in the making of this film”. I see no reason why the same system could not be adapted for porn.

The same techniques sure worked on Apple.

Not every porn producer would choose to abide by those terms, of course… but they would by that very fact mark themselves as suspect.

If you are, in fact, not talking about banning porn, I can’t see why you wouldn’t be in favor of regulating it…

I was trying to correct your intial misunderstanding of the essay you were supposed to be commenting on, which was the showing of pornography in hotels, not a “ban” on pornography as you inaccurately described it. Thus, I can’t answer questions from someone who doesn’t understand what they are reading. That’s your problem, not mine.

And as for a lack of violence and coercion as your “Porn Fair Trade” standard, how would you measure that? Is a 17 year old actress capable of giving “consent” in a porn film under the Ingles Rules? If she’s not slapped or beaten, does that get her film approved under your Fair Trade rules?