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	<title>Comments on: Religious Freedom Threatened Worldwide</title>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/07/31/religious-freedom-threatened-worldwide/comment-page-1/#comment-68155</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2012 14:48:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=45619#comment-68155</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Today, freedom of religion dies in the USA.&lt;/i&gt;

Four,

Actually, the archbishop&#039;s post doesn&#039;t even reflect its title. Maybe the courts will not permit the mandate. Maybe Obama will be defeated. Not mentioned is the fact that even if Obama isn&#039;t defeated, he only gets one more term. Also not mentioned is the fact that even if Obama isn&#039;t defeated, Republicans will take the House and the Senate. 

&lt;i&gt;These already hard-pressed will then be subject to further financial hardship as they struggle to find the extra dollars to finance their own plans. Most will be unable to afford the insurance, thereby rendered helpless against life’s slings and arrows.&lt;/i&gt;

But if their employer doesn&#039;t provide insurance, they will be able to purchase subsidized insurance through a state exchange. 

&lt;i&gt;But there is a sense of inevitability: the unbelieving employee’s free choice to contracept or abort is about to become the financial liability of the believing employer. &lt;/i&gt;

Actually, the issue is no longer financial liability, since the cost burden (if any) is on the insurance company. Even if critics don&#039;t believe it will work out that way, the can at least acknowledge how the mandate is &lt;i&gt;designed&lt;/i&gt; to work instead of just declaring as fact their view of how it will work.

This is not to deny there is a real issue of religious liberty. But declaring religious liberty dead in the United States now, or even if the contraceptive mandate is fully implemented, is hyperbolic.

But granting for the sake of argument that religious liberty in the United States is dead or dying, to what country should people who want freedom of religion flee to?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Today, freedom of religion dies in the USA.</i></p>
<p>Four,</p>
<p>Actually, the archbishop&#8217;s post doesn&#8217;t even reflect its title. Maybe the courts will not permit the mandate. Maybe Obama will be defeated. Not mentioned is the fact that even if Obama isn&#8217;t defeated, he only gets one more term. Also not mentioned is the fact that even if Obama isn&#8217;t defeated, Republicans will take the House and the Senate. </p>
<p><i>These already hard-pressed will then be subject to further financial hardship as they struggle to find the extra dollars to finance their own plans. Most will be unable to afford the insurance, thereby rendered helpless against life’s slings and arrows.</i></p>
<p>But if their employer doesn&#8217;t provide insurance, they will be able to purchase subsidized insurance through a state exchange. </p>
<p><i>But there is a sense of inevitability: the unbelieving employee’s free choice to contracept or abort is about to become the financial liability of the believing employer. </i></p>
<p>Actually, the issue is no longer financial liability, since the cost burden (if any) is on the insurance company. Even if critics don&#8217;t believe it will work out that way, the can at least acknowledge how the mandate is <i>designed</i> to work instead of just declaring as fact their view of how it will work.</p>
<p>This is not to deny there is a real issue of religious liberty. But declaring religious liberty dead in the United States now, or even if the contraceptive mandate is fully implemented, is hyperbolic.</p>
<p>But granting for the sake of argument that religious liberty in the United States is dead or dying, to what country should people who want freedom of religion flee to?</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Ingles</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/07/31/religious-freedom-threatened-worldwide/comment-page-1/#comment-68150</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Ingles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2012 12:53:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=45619#comment-68150</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Anna, I didn&#039;t say, or mean to imply, that anyone here supported persecution of anyone. I just wanted to point out that some of the targets are non-obvious.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anna, I didn&#8217;t say, or mean to imply, that anyone here supported persecution of anyone. I just wanted to point out that some of the targets are non-obvious.</p>
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		<title>By: Four</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/07/31/religious-freedom-threatened-worldwide/comment-page-1/#comment-68147</link>
		<dc:creator>Four</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2012 11:47:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=45619#comment-68147</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Today, freedom of religion dies in the USA

http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2012/08/today-freedom-of-religion-dies-in-usa.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Today, freedom of religion dies in the USA</p>
<p><a href="http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2012/08/today-freedom-of-religion-dies-in-usa.html" rel="nofollow">http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2012/08/today-freedom-of-religion-dies-in-usa.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Peg</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/07/31/religious-freedom-threatened-worldwide/comment-page-1/#comment-68138</link>
		<dc:creator>Peg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2012 19:54:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=45619#comment-68138</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I don’t support the persecution of rationalists, alleged witches, atheists, etc. any more than I support the persecution of Christians, Jews, Muslims, and the rest. I’d say international concern over the persecution of both groups is in short supply. (See the Nadarkhani link for more.)&quot;

Amen to this.  I used to work on the State Department&#039;s International Religious Report for a few years and as far as I could tell from international reaction, we might as well have dropped it down a well.  I know there was always coverage of the persecution of sorcerers, witches, and other groups in the report.  The study on Saudi Arabia usually demonstrates this concern, for example. A great deal of honest effort is taken to find victims and report their stories.  Many are reluctant to speak up, and they have reason to do so.  I know from personal experience that some said they didn&#039;t see the point of risking capture if they spoke to us, since the previous report did nothing to alleviate their circumstances. 

 My impression, however, was and is that Christians are among the most  persecuted people in the world today.  It is hard for us to imagine it, I guess, but in much of the world, Christians are the poorest of the poor. They are powerless, marginalized and victimized.  If publication of the IRFR should one day help them, then that is a good thing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I don’t support the persecution of rationalists, alleged witches, atheists, etc. any more than I support the persecution of Christians, Jews, Muslims, and the rest. I’d say international concern over the persecution of both groups is in short supply. (See the Nadarkhani link for more.)&#8221;</p>
<p>Amen to this.  I used to work on the State Department&#8217;s International Religious Report for a few years and as far as I could tell from international reaction, we might as well have dropped it down a well.  I know there was always coverage of the persecution of sorcerers, witches, and other groups in the report.  The study on Saudi Arabia usually demonstrates this concern, for example. A great deal of honest effort is taken to find victims and report their stories.  Many are reluctant to speak up, and they have reason to do so.  I know from personal experience that some said they didn&#8217;t see the point of risking capture if they spoke to us, since the previous report did nothing to alleviate their circumstances. </p>
<p> My impression, however, was and is that Christians are among the most  persecuted people in the world today.  It is hard for us to imagine it, I guess, but in much of the world, Christians are the poorest of the poor. They are powerless, marginalized and victimized.  If publication of the IRFR should one day help them, then that is a good thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Anna Williams</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/07/31/religious-freedom-threatened-worldwide/comment-page-1/#comment-68136</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2012 18:50:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=45619#comment-68136</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@David Nickol - With religious liberty in Hosanna-Tabor, I meant to refer to the Obama administration&#039;s arguments in the case (not to the administration&#039;s Court appointees). As Richard Garnett describes in the link I included, the view of the administration &quot;was characterized by the chief justice as &#039;remarkable,&#039; &#039;extreme,&#039; and &#039;untenable.&#039;&quot; 
As for the New York and California mandates, if I understand it correctly, Catholic organizations in those states still had loopholes that they could use to avoid providing free contraceptives, despite the court decisions. (See section 2a in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nationalreview.com/bench-memos/291741/feeble-defense-hhs-mandate-ed-whelan&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this blog post&lt;/a&gt;.) Those loopholes are closed by the health reform law and mandate.
Religious liberty is not nearly as threatened in the U.S. as it is in many other countries; I said as much in the last line of my post. But I would say the trend in the U.S. is towards reducing religious liberty, which I find troubling.

@Ray Ingles, I don&#039;t support the persecution of rationalists, alleged witches, atheists, etc. any more than I support the persecution of Christians, Jews, Muslims, and the rest. I&#039;d say international concern over the persecution of &lt;i&gt;both&lt;/i&gt; groups is in short supply. (See the Nadarkhani link for more.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@David Nickol &#8211; With religious liberty in Hosanna-Tabor, I meant to refer to the Obama administration&#8217;s arguments in the case (not to the administration&#8217;s Court appointees). As Richard Garnett describes in the link I included, the view of the administration &#8220;was characterized by the chief justice as &#8216;remarkable,&#8217; &#8216;extreme,&#8217; and &#8216;untenable.&#8217;&#8221;<br />
As for the New York and California mandates, if I understand it correctly, Catholic organizations in those states still had loopholes that they could use to avoid providing free contraceptives, despite the court decisions. (See section 2a in <a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/bench-memos/291741/feeble-defense-hhs-mandate-ed-whelan" rel="nofollow">this blog post</a>.) Those loopholes are closed by the health reform law and mandate.<br />
Religious liberty is not nearly as threatened in the U.S. as it is in many other countries; I said as much in the last line of my post. But I would say the trend in the U.S. is towards reducing religious liberty, which I find troubling.</p>
<p>@Ray Ingles, I don&#8217;t support the persecution of rationalists, alleged witches, atheists, etc. any more than I support the persecution of Christians, Jews, Muslims, and the rest. I&#8217;d say international concern over the persecution of <i>both</i> groups is in short supply. (See the Nadarkhani link for more.)</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Ingles</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/07/31/religious-freedom-threatened-worldwide/comment-page-1/#comment-68135</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Ingles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2012 17:54:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=45619#comment-68135</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Another case I didn&#039;t see mentioned: An Indian &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/06/10/indian-rationalist-faces-jail-for-exposing-miracle/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;rationalist debunked a &#039;miracle&#039;&lt;/a&gt;, and local Catholics are pushing for jail time for 
 &quot;hurting the religious sentiments of a particular community.&quot;

And there doesn&#039;t seem to be much international concern about &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/09/11/accusations-of-sorcery-still-drive-women-from-home-in-africa.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;witch hunts in Africa&lt;/a&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another case I didn&#8217;t see mentioned: An Indian <a href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/06/10/indian-rationalist-faces-jail-for-exposing-miracle/" rel="nofollow">rationalist debunked a &#8216;miracle&#8217;</a>, and local Catholics are pushing for jail time for<br />
 &#8220;hurting the religious sentiments of a particular community.&#8221;</p>
<p>And there doesn&#8217;t seem to be much international concern about <a href="http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/09/11/accusations-of-sorcery-still-drive-women-from-home-in-africa.html" rel="nofollow">witch hunts in Africa</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/07/31/religious-freedom-threatened-worldwide/comment-page-1/#comment-68129</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2012 16:20:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=45619#comment-68129</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am not sure if it is reasonable to count Hosannah Tabor against the Obama administration when the case dates to the Bush administration and when the &quot;good guys&quot; won unanimously, with Obama&#039;s two appointees to the court voting against the administration&#039;s side.

The big complaint, of course, is the &quot;contraceptive mandate,&quot; and yet states began imposing their own mandates well before Obama even considered running for president. Also, Catholic organizations in two states (New York and California) fought state mandates, lost their court battles, and appeals were turned down in the Supreme Court. 

I understand the arguments against the Obama administration, and even agree with some of them, but I don&#039;t see religious liberty &lt;i&gt;in general&lt;/i&gt; threatened or under attack in the United States. Even if the contraceptive mandate is upheld as is, won&#039;t the United States still be the country with the most religious liberty in the world?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not sure if it is reasonable to count Hosannah Tabor against the Obama administration when the case dates to the Bush administration and when the &#8220;good guys&#8221; won unanimously, with Obama&#8217;s two appointees to the court voting against the administration&#8217;s side.</p>
<p>The big complaint, of course, is the &#8220;contraceptive mandate,&#8221; and yet states began imposing their own mandates well before Obama even considered running for president. Also, Catholic organizations in two states (New York and California) fought state mandates, lost their court battles, and appeals were turned down in the Supreme Court. </p>
<p>I understand the arguments against the Obama administration, and even agree with some of them, but I don&#8217;t see religious liberty <i>in general</i> threatened or under attack in the United States. Even if the contraceptive mandate is upheld as is, won&#8217;t the United States still be the country with the most religious liberty in the world?</p>
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