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	<title>Comments on: Quantum Physics vs. Materialism</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/03/quantum-physics-vs-materialism/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Bret Lythgoe</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/03/quantum-physics-vs-materialism/comment-page-1/#comment-68575</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret Lythgoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2012 13:06:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=45738#comment-68575</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ray, I would also add that, if the evidence derived from quantum mechanics shows that a belief in God makes more sense (that is, does not lead to what, at least from a common sense perspective, leads to absurdities, such as  infinite worlds, that clearly requires more faith to accept than the belief in a God), it seems rather empty for atheists to respond with, &quot;well, in the future we&#039;ll likely have an entirely naturalistic explanation for this&#039;&#039;. How do you know? Maybe you&#039;re right, unless, of course, the only reasonable explanation, ultimately, for why quantum mechanics works, is that God exists.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ray, I would also add that, if the evidence derived from quantum mechanics shows that a belief in God makes more sense (that is, does not lead to what, at least from a common sense perspective, leads to absurdities, such as  infinite worlds, that clearly requires more faith to accept than the belief in a God), it seems rather empty for atheists to respond with, &#8220;well, in the future we&#8217;ll likely have an entirely naturalistic explanation for this&#8221;. How do you know? Maybe you&#8217;re right, unless, of course, the only reasonable explanation, ultimately, for why quantum mechanics works, is that God exists.</p>
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		<title>By: Bret Lythgoe</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/03/quantum-physics-vs-materialism/comment-page-1/#comment-68572</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret Lythgoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2012 12:51:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=45738#comment-68572</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Ray, sorry to take so long to respond to your comments. I think that your comments reflect what Kant referred to as the &quot;antinomies&#039;&#039;, some things supersede our capacities. Does the universe have a beginning or end, is it spatially limited? We may never know. 

Certainly Theists must be careful in using scientific arguments to support the existence of God, since, as I think you&#039;re intimating, there&#039;s a potential for a &quot;god of the gaps&#039;&#039; problem. But, of course, the inverse of this is a problem too: a &quot;godless of the gaps&#039;&#039;, where the atheist tries to utilize the latest scientific knowledge to support his atheism, but then subsequent scientific knowledge shows that the atheism is untenable, for example, quantum mechanics showing that belief in God is more rational than atheism. But both sides would be wise to rely on the latest science to support their views parsimoniously.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Ray, sorry to take so long to respond to your comments. I think that your comments reflect what Kant referred to as the &#8220;antinomies&#8221;, some things supersede our capacities. Does the universe have a beginning or end, is it spatially limited? We may never know. </p>
<p>Certainly Theists must be careful in using scientific arguments to support the existence of God, since, as I think you&#8217;re intimating, there&#8217;s a potential for a &#8220;god of the gaps&#8221; problem. But, of course, the inverse of this is a problem too: a &#8220;godless of the gaps&#8221;, where the atheist tries to utilize the latest scientific knowledge to support his atheism, but then subsequent scientific knowledge shows that the atheism is untenable, for example, quantum mechanics showing that belief in God is more rational than atheism. But both sides would be wise to rely on the latest science to support their views parsimoniously.</p>
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		<title>By: How Quantum Physics refutes materialism</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/03/quantum-physics-vs-materialism/comment-page-1/#comment-68511</link>
		<dc:creator>How Quantum Physics refutes materialism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2012 09:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=45738#comment-68511</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] HT:  Anna Williams [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] HT:  Anna Williams [...]</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/03/quantum-physics-vs-materialism/comment-page-1/#comment-68443</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2012 20:10:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=45738#comment-68443</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fools rush in . . .

In my example above, in which I was unaware of the meaning of &lt;i&gt;decoherence,&lt;/i&gt; my thought was not about a photon hitting a detector in a lab. It was about a photon long ago, before the existence of human intelligence, striking some surface and perhaps producing heat. The question in my mind is whether the equations of quantum mechanics can be thought of as applying to situations that occurred before human consciousness was around and people were able to experiment with, predict, and measure quantum phenomena. The question in my mind is whether reality is somehow different if there is no (human) consciousness to observe it. Did reality actually change because consciousness came into existence? If there was &lt;i&gt;no&lt;/i&gt; reality before there were human beings to observe it, what are geologists seeing when they look at billion-year-old rocks, or what are we seeing when we look in the sky and see light from a billion years ago. We can say that the observer has an effect on the observed, but what can we say about unobserved (and inherently unobservable) quantum phenomena?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fools rush in . . .</p>
<p>In my example above, in which I was unaware of the meaning of <i>decoherence,</i> my thought was not about a photon hitting a detector in a lab. It was about a photon long ago, before the existence of human intelligence, striking some surface and perhaps producing heat. The question in my mind is whether the equations of quantum mechanics can be thought of as applying to situations that occurred before human consciousness was around and people were able to experiment with, predict, and measure quantum phenomena. The question in my mind is whether reality is somehow different if there is no (human) consciousness to observe it. Did reality actually change because consciousness came into existence? If there was <i>no</i> reality before there were human beings to observe it, what are geologists seeing when they look at billion-year-old rocks, or what are we seeing when we look in the sky and see light from a billion years ago. We can say that the observer has an effect on the observed, but what can we say about unobserved (and inherently unobservable) quantum phenomena?</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Ingles</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/03/quantum-physics-vs-materialism/comment-page-1/#comment-68423</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Ingles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2012 15:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=45738#comment-68423</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bret Lythgoe - If you don&#039;t accept that the world goes on forever, it would seem the only alternative would be that the Earth must have an edge. :)

That was the cosmology a few thousand years ago, and most people seem to have accepted that the Earth had an edge. But new insights came along a few centuries later and yet more alternatives were thought up.

QM is a beautiful theory, and its predictions have been confirmed in every test we&#039;ve made to date, to many decimal places. Relativity is another theory that&#039;s passed every test we&#039;ve thrown at it with flying colors.

But they make different predictions in areas we can&#039;t test yet - like rotating black holes. We &lt;i&gt;know&lt;/i&gt; that at least one of them - and probably both! - are incomplete to some degree. There&#039;s a long history of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.haydenplanetarium.org/tyson/read/2005/11/01/the-perimeter-of-ignorance&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;hitting the limits of what we currently know and saying &#039;here be the supernatural&#039;&lt;/a&gt; but that hasn&#039;t worked out in practice.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bret Lythgoe &#8211; If you don&#8217;t accept that the world goes on forever, it would seem the only alternative would be that the Earth must have an edge. :)</p>
<p>That was the cosmology a few thousand years ago, and most people seem to have accepted that the Earth had an edge. But new insights came along a few centuries later and yet more alternatives were thought up.</p>
<p>QM is a beautiful theory, and its predictions have been confirmed in every test we&#8217;ve made to date, to many decimal places. Relativity is another theory that&#8217;s passed every test we&#8217;ve thrown at it with flying colors.</p>
<p>But they make different predictions in areas we can&#8217;t test yet &#8211; like rotating black holes. We <i>know</i> that at least one of them &#8211; and probably both! &#8211; are incomplete to some degree. There&#8217;s a long history of <a href="http://www.haydenplanetarium.org/tyson/read/2005/11/01/the-perimeter-of-ignorance" rel="nofollow">hitting the limits of what we currently know and saying &#8216;here be the supernatural&#8217;</a> but that hasn&#8217;t worked out in practice.</p>
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		<title>By: Gian</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/03/quantum-physics-vs-materialism/comment-page-1/#comment-68411</link>
		<dc:creator>Gian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2012 10:29:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=45738#comment-68411</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Prof Barr,
Given the uncertain state of fundamental questions in quantum mechanics, how much credence should we give to the speculative claims of quantum cosmology?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prof Barr,<br />
Given the uncertain state of fundamental questions in quantum mechanics, how much credence should we give to the speculative claims of quantum cosmology?</p>
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		<title>By: Bret Lythgoe</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/03/quantum-physics-vs-materialism/comment-page-1/#comment-68401</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret Lythgoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2012 22:58:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=45738#comment-68401</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dr. Barr not only is a brilliant physicist, but an excellent writer as well. He has a great talent for writing clearly and understandably, as manifested in his Big Questions Online essay. It would be fascinating to see how many atheistic thinkers are willing to bite the bullet, and accept the &quot;many worlds&#039;&#039; theory. This theory, I think was advocated by the late philosopher David Lewis, but I think he was rather lonely in his endorsement. I wonder why this is. After all, if they understand the implications of quantum mechanics, and they&#039;re honest, and they don&#039;t believe in God, it would seem as if this is their only alternative. As Dr. Barr points out, this is heavy baggage!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Barr not only is a brilliant physicist, but an excellent writer as well. He has a great talent for writing clearly and understandably, as manifested in his Big Questions Online essay. It would be fascinating to see how many atheistic thinkers are willing to bite the bullet, and accept the &#8220;many worlds&#8221; theory. This theory, I think was advocated by the late philosopher David Lewis, but I think he was rather lonely in his endorsement. I wonder why this is. After all, if they understand the implications of quantum mechanics, and they&#8217;re honest, and they don&#8217;t believe in God, it would seem as if this is their only alternative. As Dr. Barr points out, this is heavy baggage!</p>
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		<title>By: Frans Monnereau</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/03/quantum-physics-vs-materialism/comment-page-1/#comment-68397</link>
		<dc:creator>Frans Monnereau</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2012 17:45:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=45738#comment-68397</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As with David Nichol, this is over my head; I prudently watch from the side line. However, as one passionately interested in the correlation between Theology and Science, I read these exchanges with great interest. Last Christmas my son surprised me with a book by Dr. Barr&#039;s excellent book Modern Physics and Ancient Faith. Dr. Barr is not only a great lucid teacher in his field of Particle Physics but when coupling that with a good exposition of theology, where difficult concepts such as the difference of contingent being versus necessary being are made crystal clear, a great resource was created. A must read for anyone interested in this field.  

One question to Dr. Barr, will there be an other book forthcoming? I already have on my Kindle &quot;A Natural Guide To Natural Science.&quot;
Thank You]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As with David Nichol, this is over my head; I prudently watch from the side line. However, as one passionately interested in the correlation between Theology and Science, I read these exchanges with great interest. Last Christmas my son surprised me with a book by Dr. Barr&#8217;s excellent book Modern Physics and Ancient Faith. Dr. Barr is not only a great lucid teacher in his field of Particle Physics but when coupling that with a good exposition of theology, where difficult concepts such as the difference of contingent being versus necessary being are made crystal clear, a great resource was created. A must read for anyone interested in this field.  </p>
<p>One question to Dr. Barr, will there be an other book forthcoming? I already have on my Kindle &#8220;A Natural Guide To Natural Science.&#8221;<br />
Thank You</p>
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		<title>By: George</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/03/quantum-physics-vs-materialism/comment-page-1/#comment-68382</link>
		<dc:creator>George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2012 23:18:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=45738#comment-68382</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Stephen,

It&#039;s true that most physicists don&#039;t spend much time thinking about this problem.  Quite disappointing, given how interesting it is.

Thanks for the great article!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen,</p>
<p>It&#8217;s true that most physicists don&#8217;t spend much time thinking about this problem.  Quite disappointing, given how interesting it is.</p>
<p>Thanks for the great article!</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/03/quantum-physics-vs-materialism/comment-page-1/#comment-68376</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2012 19:16:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=45738#comment-68376</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Unfortuantely, you are quite mistaken. &lt;/i&gt;

Stephen M. Barr,

Normally, I would be quite surprised, but not when the subject is quantum mechanics, philosophy, and human consciousness! Thank you for your detailed response.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Unfortuantely, you are quite mistaken. </i></p>
<p>Stephen M. Barr,</p>
<p>Normally, I would be quite surprised, but not when the subject is quantum mechanics, philosophy, and human consciousness! Thank you for your detailed response.</p>
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