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	<title>Comments on: Obama Pushes &#8220;Freedom of Worship&#8221; Meme Again</title>
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		<title>By: Michael PS</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/13/obama-pushes-freedom-of-worship-meme-again/comment-page-1/#comment-69199</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael PS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 10:34:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=46132#comment-69199</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In Scotland, under the old law, prosecutions of abortionists were almost wholly confined to non-medical practitioners.

Medical practitioners invariably claimed that they had performed a D &amp; C to remove post-partum placenta after a spontaneous miscarriage.

the requirement of corroboration meant that prosecutors usually relied on the Moorov doctrine, under which witnesses to individual episodes of a course of criminal conduct are mutually corroborative.  Thus, two women testifying that a doctor had performed an abortion on them would provide the necessary corroboration against him, but, as their own admissions were usually uncorroborated, there was insufficient evidence on which to prosecute them and, having testified, they were immune as socii criminis.

Any law criminalising abortion would be subject to the same constraints]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In Scotland, under the old law, prosecutions of abortionists were almost wholly confined to non-medical practitioners.</p>
<p>Medical practitioners invariably claimed that they had performed a D &amp; C to remove post-partum placenta after a spontaneous miscarriage.</p>
<p>the requirement of corroboration meant that prosecutors usually relied on the Moorov doctrine, under which witnesses to individual episodes of a course of criminal conduct are mutually corroborative.  Thus, two women testifying that a doctor had performed an abortion on them would provide the necessary corroboration against him, but, as their own admissions were usually uncorroborated, there was insufficient evidence on which to prosecute them and, having testified, they were immune as socii criminis.</p>
<p>Any law criminalising abortion would be subject to the same constraints</p>
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		<title>By: Carl</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/13/obama-pushes-freedom-of-worship-meme-again/comment-page-1/#comment-69026</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2012 01:21:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=46132#comment-69026</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Actually, the abortion rate has been dropping since 1990 and is down about 25% from its peak.&quot;

True but there was a dramatic increase  (I believe doubling) of &quot;legal&quot; abortions between 1973 and 1979.  1990 was indeed a peak but the decline since then has not offset the initial surge of abortions after Roe v Wade.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Actually, the abortion rate has been dropping since 1990 and is down about 25% from its peak.&#8221;</p>
<p>True but there was a dramatic increase  (I believe doubling) of &#8220;legal&#8221; abortions between 1973 and 1979.  1990 was indeed a peak but the decline since then has not offset the initial surge of abortions after Roe v Wade.</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/13/obama-pushes-freedom-of-worship-meme-again/comment-page-1/#comment-69011</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 23:13:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=46132#comment-69011</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;This increased acceptability and availability, of course, has led to a dramatic increase in the number of abortions since 1973.&lt;/i&gt;

Carl,

Actually, the abortion rate has been dropping since 1990 and is down about 25% from its peak. 

&lt;i&gt;Adding criminal penalties against women seeking abortions would not likely result in significantly further reductions in the number of (illegal) abortions. &lt;/i&gt;

I can understand why the pro-life movement would find it politically necessary not to promote the idea that a woman who procures an abortion should be punished for it. But I simply can&#039;t be persuaded that that would not be unjust and not be less effective than holding women criminally responsible. Mother Teresa said:

&lt;blockquote&gt;But I feel that the greatest destroyer of peace today is abortion, because it is a war against the child, a direct killing of the innocent child, murder by the mother herself.

And if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another?&lt;/blockquote&gt; 

For those who believe an abortion is the killing of an innocent human being, I don&#039;t see how they can argue with that. It seems to me to criminalize abortion and not to hold the mother legally responsible is to accept that a mother can kill even her own child. I have heard all of the arguments again and again, so there is no point in discussing it here one more time. I can never accept that—for those who consider abortion murder—it would not be unjust not to hold the mother legally responsible in &lt;i&gt;some&lt;/i&gt; way. I&#039;m not saying the penalty would have to be time in jail, but not to hold the woman responsible &lt;i&gt;in any way&lt;/i&gt; who delivers herself to the abortionist and pays for the abortion makes no legal or moral sense to me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>This increased acceptability and availability, of course, has led to a dramatic increase in the number of abortions since 1973.</i></p>
<p>Carl,</p>
<p>Actually, the abortion rate has been dropping since 1990 and is down about 25% from its peak. </p>
<p><i>Adding criminal penalties against women seeking abortions would not likely result in significantly further reductions in the number of (illegal) abortions. </i></p>
<p>I can understand why the pro-life movement would find it politically necessary not to promote the idea that a woman who procures an abortion should be punished for it. But I simply can&#8217;t be persuaded that that would not be unjust and not be less effective than holding women criminally responsible. Mother Teresa said:</p>
<blockquote><p>But I feel that the greatest destroyer of peace today is abortion, because it is a war against the child, a direct killing of the innocent child, murder by the mother herself.</p>
<p>And if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another?</p></blockquote>
<p>For those who believe an abortion is the killing of an innocent human being, I don&#8217;t see how they can argue with that. It seems to me to criminalize abortion and not to hold the mother legally responsible is to accept that a mother can kill even her own child. I have heard all of the arguments again and again, so there is no point in discussing it here one more time. I can never accept that—for those who consider abortion murder—it would not be unjust not to hold the mother legally responsible in <i>some</i> way. I&#8217;m not saying the penalty would have to be time in jail, but not to hold the woman responsible <i>in any way</i> who delivers herself to the abortionist and pays for the abortion makes no legal or moral sense to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Carl</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/13/obama-pushes-freedom-of-worship-meme-again/comment-page-1/#comment-68998</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 20:54:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=46132#comment-68998</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David Nickol:

By legalizing abortion on demand, Roe v. Wade not only made abortion readily available, it also institutionalized the concept that killing an unborn baby is an act which our society considers acceptable.  This increased acceptability and availability, of course, has led to a dramatic increase in the number of abortions since 1973.  Criminalizing the performance of abortions would certainly not eliminate all abortions just as laws against other murder have not ended all murders, speed laws have not ended all speeding on the roadways, etc.  Adding criminal penalties against women seeking abortions would not likely result in significantly further reductions in the number of (illegal) abortions.  But the combination…illegality and moral unacceptability…would go far toward providing justice for the unborn.  Let’s not hold the good hostage to the perfect.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Nickol:</p>
<p>By legalizing abortion on demand, Roe v. Wade not only made abortion readily available, it also institutionalized the concept that killing an unborn baby is an act which our society considers acceptable.  This increased acceptability and availability, of course, has led to a dramatic increase in the number of abortions since 1973.  Criminalizing the performance of abortions would certainly not eliminate all abortions just as laws against other murder have not ended all murders, speed laws have not ended all speeding on the roadways, etc.  Adding criminal penalties against women seeking abortions would not likely result in significantly further reductions in the number of (illegal) abortions.  But the combination…illegality and moral unacceptability…would go far toward providing justice for the unborn.  Let’s not hold the good hostage to the perfect.</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/13/obama-pushes-freedom-of-worship-meme-again/comment-page-1/#comment-68997</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 20:52:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=46132#comment-68997</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Blake,

Neither Obama nor Pelosi has any power to alter how the courts interpret the Constitution. I don&#039;t think they even have any influence. If Obama wants to change &quot;freedom of religion&quot; to &quot;freedom of worship,&quot; he is going to have to name five new justice to the Supreme Court to replace five of the sitting judges. Because on the last big freedom-of-religion case, the court voted against Omama and the Justice Department unanimously. 

Now, on the other hand, there is one man who actually did deal a major blow to freedom of religion, and that was Antonin Scalia in &lt;i&gt;Employment Division v. Smith&lt;/i&gt; who made it more difficult for citizens to prevail against the government in freedom of religion cases—so much so that congress passed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act to try to undo what Scalia had done. And then, of course, the court found RFRA unconstitutional as applied to the states. 

Obama is not in a position to do anything even &lt;i&gt;close&lt;/i&gt; to what Scalia did. 

Obama may prevail on the contraceptive mandate, and I understand why many would consider that a serious blow to freedom of religion (although I don&#039;t agree). But as for shifting American jurisprudence from interpreting the First Amendment to guarantee only freedom of worship and not freedom of religion, Obama simply hasn&#039;t the authority or the influence to do that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blake,</p>
<p>Neither Obama nor Pelosi has any power to alter how the courts interpret the Constitution. I don&#8217;t think they even have any influence. If Obama wants to change &#8220;freedom of religion&#8221; to &#8220;freedom of worship,&#8221; he is going to have to name five new justice to the Supreme Court to replace five of the sitting judges. Because on the last big freedom-of-religion case, the court voted against Omama and the Justice Department unanimously. </p>
<p>Now, on the other hand, there is one man who actually did deal a major blow to freedom of religion, and that was Antonin Scalia in <i>Employment Division v. Smith</i> who made it more difficult for citizens to prevail against the government in freedom of religion cases—so much so that congress passed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act to try to undo what Scalia had done. And then, of course, the court found RFRA unconstitutional as applied to the states. </p>
<p>Obama is not in a position to do anything even <i>close</i> to what Scalia did. </p>
<p>Obama may prevail on the contraceptive mandate, and I understand why many would consider that a serious blow to freedom of religion (although I don&#8217;t agree). But as for shifting American jurisprudence from interpreting the First Amendment to guarantee only freedom of worship and not freedom of religion, Obama simply hasn&#8217;t the authority or the influence to do that.</p>
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		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/13/obama-pushes-freedom-of-worship-meme-again/comment-page-1/#comment-68973</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 19:21:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=46132#comment-68973</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;I think most people, including Obama, use freedom of worship and freedom of religion interchangeably. I think this controversy is baseless.&lt;/i&gt;

Except for the fact that Obama&#039;s Justice Department (and Nancy Pelosi) keep using language that makes clear that the right formerly known as religion does not exist, and that the &quot;right to worship&quot; means you can do whatever you want, but only if you are in the right kind of building during the right kind of service.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I think most people, including Obama, use freedom of worship and freedom of religion interchangeably. I think this controversy is baseless.</i></p>
<p>Except for the fact that Obama&#8217;s Justice Department (and Nancy Pelosi) keep using language that makes clear that the right formerly known as religion does not exist, and that the &#8220;right to worship&#8221; means you can do whatever you want, but only if you are in the right kind of building during the right kind of service.</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/13/obama-pushes-freedom-of-worship-meme-again/comment-page-1/#comment-68944</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 14:47:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=46132#comment-68944</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Carl,

It may be a matter of Catholic religious doctrine that abortion should be illegal, but it seems to me the Church gives so little guidance as to &lt;i&gt;how&lt;/i&gt; it should be illegal that the doctrine has no more practical application Catholic Social Teaching about helping the poor. There are so many ways of interpreting such principles and so many ways they might be implemented that as guidelines for political action, virtually anyone of any political stripe can claim to be in accord with them. In any case, the pro-life movement in the United States doesn&#039;t want to make it a crime to procure an abortion. They want to make it a crime to perform an abortion. Mothers would not be legally culpable for arranging and paying for the death of their unborn children. How such an arrangement could be called justice for the unborn is beyond my comprehension.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carl,</p>
<p>It may be a matter of Catholic religious doctrine that abortion should be illegal, but it seems to me the Church gives so little guidance as to <i>how</i> it should be illegal that the doctrine has no more practical application Catholic Social Teaching about helping the poor. There are so many ways of interpreting such principles and so many ways they might be implemented that as guidelines for political action, virtually anyone of any political stripe can claim to be in accord with them. In any case, the pro-life movement in the United States doesn&#8217;t want to make it a crime to procure an abortion. They want to make it a crime to perform an abortion. Mothers would not be legally culpable for arranging and paying for the death of their unborn children. How such an arrangement could be called justice for the unborn is beyond my comprehension.</p>
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		<title>By: Carl</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/13/obama-pushes-freedom-of-worship-meme-again/comment-page-1/#comment-68937</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 13:51:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=46132#comment-68937</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David Nickol:

&quot;And whether abortion should be legal or not is not a matter of religious doctrine. It is a matter of law.&quot;  

The fact that abortion IS legal is not the same as whether it SHOULD be legal...and that is precisely a matter of religious doctrine informed by first principles.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Nickol:</p>
<p>&#8220;And whether abortion should be legal or not is not a matter of religious doctrine. It is a matter of law.&#8221;  </p>
<p>The fact that abortion IS legal is not the same as whether it SHOULD be legal&#8230;and that is precisely a matter of religious doctrine informed by first principles.</p>
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		<title>By: Botolph</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/13/obama-pushes-freedom-of-worship-meme-again/comment-page-1/#comment-68911</link>
		<dc:creator>Botolph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 02:05:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=46132#comment-68911</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The First Amendment speaks of freedom of religion which includes &#039;freedom of worship&#039; within it, but means much more [except the obvious &#039;establishment clause]

The Catholic Bishops of the USA are very much aware of the change of phraseology and its implications for the present but most of all by the future. They give a series of intrusion by &#039;the state&#039; into the affairs of the free practice of religion (of which none is a prohibition of worship]. The HHS Mandate is only the most glaring example, but is by no means unique. If the Mandate or even the whole &quot;Obamacare&quot; had been struck down by the US Supreme Court the Catholic Church in America would still be speaking out about the threats to &#039;freedom of religion&#039;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The First Amendment speaks of freedom of religion which includes &#8216;freedom of worship&#8217; within it, but means much more [except the obvious 'establishment clause]</p>
<p>The Catholic Bishops of the USA are very much aware of the change of phraseology and its implications for the present but most of all by the future. They give a series of intrusion by &#8216;the state&#8217; into the affairs of the free practice of religion (of which none is a prohibition of worship]. The HHS Mandate is only the most glaring example, but is by no means unique. If the Mandate or even the whole &#8220;Obamacare&#8221; had been struck down by the US Supreme Court the Catholic Church in America would still be speaking out about the threats to &#8216;freedom of religion&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/13/obama-pushes-freedom-of-worship-meme-again/comment-page-1/#comment-68900</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 21:13:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=46132#comment-68900</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Obama, on the other hand, clearly is (to put it kindly) less sympathetic to religious doctrine (eg, abortion) and has exhibited, in his HHS secretary’s mandate for example, an overt hostility to constitutional guarantees of religious freedom so that his mixing of the two terms can reasonably be interpreted as intentional and in the service of his far left political agenda.&lt;/i&gt;

Carl,

Obama may be less sympathetic the the religious doctrine &lt;i&gt;you&lt;/i&gt; believe in, but that does not make him less sympathetic to religious doctrine. And whether abortion should be legal or not is not a matter of religious doctrine. It is a matter of law.

If you are referring to the contraceptive mandate as evidence of &quot;an overt hostility to constitutional guarantees of religious freedom,&quot; it  has not been established by the courts yet whether the mandate is constitutional or not. If it is upheld, it may be upheld based on the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which is not the constitution. It may very well be constitutional but against federal law (RFRA).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Obama, on the other hand, clearly is (to put it kindly) less sympathetic to religious doctrine (eg, abortion) and has exhibited, in his HHS secretary’s mandate for example, an overt hostility to constitutional guarantees of religious freedom so that his mixing of the two terms can reasonably be interpreted as intentional and in the service of his far left political agenda.</i></p>
<p>Carl,</p>
<p>Obama may be less sympathetic the the religious doctrine <i>you</i> believe in, but that does not make him less sympathetic to religious doctrine. And whether abortion should be legal or not is not a matter of religious doctrine. It is a matter of law.</p>
<p>If you are referring to the contraceptive mandate as evidence of &#8220;an overt hostility to constitutional guarantees of religious freedom,&#8221; it  has not been established by the courts yet whether the mandate is constitutional or not. If it is upheld, it may be upheld based on the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which is not the constitution. It may very well be constitutional but against federal law (RFRA).</p>
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