<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Religion and Republicans</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/28/religion-and-republicans/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/28/religion-and-republicans/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 25 May 2013 21:29:05 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Fred</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/28/religion-and-republicans/comment-page-1/#comment-70629</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2012 22:20:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=46911#comment-70629</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David, We seem to be talking past each other a bit. I believe I said in my last comment that politics being very much a part of this fallen world, it (and anyone who practices it) cannot but be flawed from a Christian point of view. I would, though, argue that Christians should feel, at the very least, more welcome in the Republican party, if not completely in synch with it. I stand by my point about your characterization of Republicans, and, word to the wise, I believe you might find people more willing to listen to you and engage your main point if you insulted and demonized them less. Once you accuse me of wanting to see poor people starve, wanting to see sick people die, and hating children, I&#039;m not likely to get much past that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, We seem to be talking past each other a bit. I believe I said in my last comment that politics being very much a part of this fallen world, it (and anyone who practices it) cannot but be flawed from a Christian point of view. I would, though, argue that Christians should feel, at the very least, more welcome in the Republican party, if not completely in synch with it. I stand by my point about your characterization of Republicans, and, word to the wise, I believe you might find people more willing to listen to you and engage your main point if you insulted and demonized them less. Once you accuse me of wanting to see poor people starve, wanting to see sick people die, and hating children, I&#8217;m not likely to get much past that.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/28/religion-and-republicans/comment-page-1/#comment-70574</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2012 14:48:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=46911#comment-70574</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;My point was that your portrayal of the Republican party is tendentious, partisan, and based on media stereotypes rather than observation or thought. For me, that mitigates what would otherwise be a valid point.&lt;/i&gt;

Fred,

However I may have stated the three issues: the right to medical care for all, the human rights of illegal immigrants, and threat of harm to the poor from Republican proposed budget cuts, these were all three issues the US Conference of Catholic Bishops spoke out on in ways that were explicitly critical of the Republican Party. I don&#039;t claim to be nonpartisan, but it is simply a fact that the American Bishops have criticisms of both the Democratic and Republican Parties.

It really should go without saying that neither party is so wholly based on Christian principles that it is the natural home for Christian citizens. People may want to argue that one party comes closer to the other in embodying Christian principles than the other, but it would simply be nonsense to claim that either the Democratic Party or the Republican Party is the party of Jesus. So I repeat, &quot;I really don’t see how someone who wants to be a good Christian can feel completely at home in either the Democratic or the Republican Party.&quot; You can dispute everything else I have said, but I really don&#039;t see how anyone can disagree with that sentence.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>My point was that your portrayal of the Republican party is tendentious, partisan, and based on media stereotypes rather than observation or thought. For me, that mitigates what would otherwise be a valid point.</i></p>
<p>Fred,</p>
<p>However I may have stated the three issues: the right to medical care for all, the human rights of illegal immigrants, and threat of harm to the poor from Republican proposed budget cuts, these were all three issues the US Conference of Catholic Bishops spoke out on in ways that were explicitly critical of the Republican Party. I don&#8217;t claim to be nonpartisan, but it is simply a fact that the American Bishops have criticisms of both the Democratic and Republican Parties.</p>
<p>It really should go without saying that neither party is so wholly based on Christian principles that it is the natural home for Christian citizens. People may want to argue that one party comes closer to the other in embodying Christian principles than the other, but it would simply be nonsense to claim that either the Democratic Party or the Republican Party is the party of Jesus. So I repeat, &#8220;I really don’t see how someone who wants to be a good Christian can feel completely at home in either the Democratic or the Republican Party.&#8221; You can dispute everything else I have said, but I really don&#8217;t see how anyone can disagree with that sentence.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: stanchaz</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/28/religion-and-republicans/comment-page-1/#comment-70545</link>
		<dc:creator>stanchaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2012 03:45:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=46911#comment-70545</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I’d like to humbly remind the good Cardinal Dolan,
as he parades under the spotlights of the political conventions: 
there is room for only ONE real super-star in your religion.  The one who started it.
And as the Cardinal addresses and blesses the Republicans and their billionaire buddies, 
as he smiles upon those who would destroy Social Security &amp; voucher Medicare to death, 
and as he joins with those who readily admit they “don’t care about the very poor”......
it would be good, it would be very good ...for the dear Cardinal 
to remember  -and take to heart-  the words of his boss, 
who once said “Whatsoever you do for the least of these - you do for me”.
Unless perhaps, ...just perhaps, 
the Cardinal is working for someone else these days?
as our Founding Fathers so wisely realized: 
politics, secular power, and religion do not mix. 
They bring out the worst in each other. 
And ultimately.....they would destroy each other, and us.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I’d like to humbly remind the good Cardinal Dolan,<br />
as he parades under the spotlights of the political conventions:<br />
there is room for only ONE real super-star in your religion.  The one who started it.<br />
And as the Cardinal addresses and blesses the Republicans and their billionaire buddies,<br />
as he smiles upon those who would destroy Social Security &amp; voucher Medicare to death,<br />
and as he joins with those who readily admit they “don’t care about the very poor”&#8230;&#8230;<br />
it would be good, it would be very good &#8230;for the dear Cardinal<br />
to remember  -and take to heart-  the words of his boss,<br />
who once said “Whatsoever you do for the least of these &#8211; you do for me”.<br />
Unless perhaps, &#8230;just perhaps,<br />
the Cardinal is working for someone else these days?<br />
as our Founding Fathers so wisely realized:<br />
politics, secular power, and religion do not mix.<br />
They bring out the worst in each other.<br />
And ultimately&#8230;..they would destroy each other, and us.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Fred</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/28/religion-and-republicans/comment-page-1/#comment-70535</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2012 01:22:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=46911#comment-70535</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David, I don&#039;t entirely disagree with your point that both parties have flaws from a Christian point of view, considering that politics is of the 
City of Man rather than the City of God, it&#039;s hard to see how that could be otherwise. My point was that your portrayal of the Republican party is tendentious, partisan, and based on media stereotypes rather than observation or thought. For me, that mitigates what would otherwise be a valid point.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, I don&#8217;t entirely disagree with your point that both parties have flaws from a Christian point of view, considering that politics is of the<br />
City of Man rather than the City of God, it&#8217;s hard to see how that could be otherwise. My point was that your portrayal of the Republican party is tendentious, partisan, and based on media stereotypes rather than observation or thought. For me, that mitigates what would otherwise be a valid point.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/28/religion-and-republicans/comment-page-1/#comment-70480</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2012 18:00:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=46911#comment-70480</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ii do think Jonathan Haidt&#039;s analysis has a lot of intuitive appeal:

From Wikipedia:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Moral Foundations Theory considers the way morality varies between cultures and identifies five (later revised to six)&quot;foundations&quot; that underlie morality in all societies and individuals. He names them using pairs of opposites to indicate that they provide continua along which judgments can be measured.[8] These are:

 • &lt;b&gt;Care/harm&lt;/b&gt; for others, protecting them from harm.
 • &lt;b&gt;Fairness/cheating&lt;/b&gt; Justice, treating others in proportion to their actions, giving them their &quot;just deserts&quot;. (He has also referred to this dimension as &lt;b&gt;Proportionality.&lt;/b&gt;)
 • &lt;b&gt;Liberty/oppression,&lt;/b&gt; characterizes judgments in terms of whether subjects are tyrannized.
 • &lt;b&gt;Loyalty/betrayal&lt;/b&gt; to your group, family, nation. (He has also referred to this dimension as &lt;b&gt;Ingroup.&lt;/b&gt;)
• &lt;b&gt;Authority/subversion&lt;/b&gt; for tradition and legitimate authority. (He has also connected this foundation to a notion of &lt;b&gt;Respect.&lt;/b&gt;)
• &lt;b&gt;Sanctity/degradation,&lt;/b&gt; avoiding disgusting things, foods, actions. (He has also referred to this as &lt;b&gt;Purity.&lt;/b&gt;)

Haidt found that the more politically liberal or left-wing people are, the more they tend to value care and fairness (proportionality), and the less they tend to value loyalty, respect for authority and purity. Conversely, the more conservative or right-wing people are, the more they tend to value the latter three. Similar results were found across the political spectrum in other countries.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

As a liberal, I would rank the first three items over the second three. 

I think it might be fairer to say these are basic attitudes that tend to determine a person&#039;s thinking about politics &lt;i&gt;and&lt;/i&gt; religion rather than to say politics tends to determine religion more than religion determines politics. But I have often asked people to take this fill-in-the-blank test, and the results are interesting:

I consider myself a mainstream conservative (or liberal), but because of my religion, I feel obliged to part company with my fellow conservatives (or liberals) on the issue of _________, because my religion teaches something that I find difficult to reconcile with conservatism (liberalism). The issue that has been mentioned by several conservative Catholics has been capital punishment. The obvious issues for liberal Catholics would probably be abortion and same-sex marriage. But in general, it has seemed to me that most Catholics, whether liberal or conservative, believe the teachings of the Church don&#039;t require them to take any liberal positions (if they are conservative) or any conservative positions (if they are liberal).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ii do think Jonathan Haidt&#8217;s analysis has a lot of intuitive appeal:</p>
<p>From Wikipedia:</p>
<blockquote><p>Moral Foundations Theory considers the way morality varies between cultures and identifies five (later revised to six)&#8221;foundations&#8221; that underlie morality in all societies and individuals. He names them using pairs of opposites to indicate that they provide continua along which judgments can be measured.[8] These are:</p>
<p> • <b>Care/harm</b> for others, protecting them from harm.<br />
 • <b>Fairness/cheating</b> Justice, treating others in proportion to their actions, giving them their &#8220;just deserts&#8221;. (He has also referred to this dimension as <b>Proportionality.</b>)<br />
 • <b>Liberty/oppression,</b> characterizes judgments in terms of whether subjects are tyrannized.<br />
 • <b>Loyalty/betrayal</b> to your group, family, nation. (He has also referred to this dimension as <b>Ingroup.</b>)<br />
• <b>Authority/subversion</b> for tradition and legitimate authority. (He has also connected this foundation to a notion of <b>Respect.</b>)<br />
• <b>Sanctity/degradation,</b> avoiding disgusting things, foods, actions. (He has also referred to this as <b>Purity.</b>)</p>
<p>Haidt found that the more politically liberal or left-wing people are, the more they tend to value care and fairness (proportionality), and the less they tend to value loyalty, respect for authority and purity. Conversely, the more conservative or right-wing people are, the more they tend to value the latter three. Similar results were found across the political spectrum in other countries.</p></blockquote>
<p>As a liberal, I would rank the first three items over the second three. </p>
<p>I think it might be fairer to say these are basic attitudes that tend to determine a person&#8217;s thinking about politics <i>and</i> religion rather than to say politics tends to determine religion more than religion determines politics. But I have often asked people to take this fill-in-the-blank test, and the results are interesting:</p>
<p>I consider myself a mainstream conservative (or liberal), but because of my religion, I feel obliged to part company with my fellow conservatives (or liberals) on the issue of _________, because my religion teaches something that I find difficult to reconcile with conservatism (liberalism). The issue that has been mentioned by several conservative Catholics has been capital punishment. The obvious issues for liberal Catholics would probably be abortion and same-sex marriage. But in general, it has seemed to me that most Catholics, whether liberal or conservative, believe the teachings of the Church don&#8217;t require them to take any liberal positions (if they are conservative) or any conservative positions (if they are liberal).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jy</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/28/religion-and-republicans/comment-page-1/#comment-70455</link>
		<dc:creator>Jy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2012 15:42:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=46911#comment-70455</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I do, by the way, think many people’s political views are less influenced by their religious views than their religious views are influenced by their political views. &quot;

I think this perhaps true in many cases. It is possible that many people are more certain about their political convictions than about the more abstract moral foundations of them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I do, by the way, think many people’s political views are less influenced by their religious views than their religious views are influenced by their political views. &#8221;</p>
<p>I think this perhaps true in many cases. It is possible that many people are more certain about their political convictions than about the more abstract moral foundations of them.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Heraclitus</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/28/religion-and-republicans/comment-page-1/#comment-70444</link>
		<dc:creator>Heraclitus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2012 14:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=46911#comment-70444</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David&#039;s statement in his penultimate post that generally &quot;religious committments follow political ones&quot; is over-hasty and certainly false in my own experience.  I myself was a staunch Democrat for decades during which I was a typical lukewarm, cafateria Catholic.  Only after a relatively late return to a robust Catholic orthodoxy in my late 30&#039;s did my political views begin to change.  The Democrats&#039; thralldom to the culture of death (i.e., abortion and same-sex marriage) has made it now impossible for me to support the party or its candidates any longer, even though I cannot work up any enthusiasm for the Republicans either.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David&#8217;s statement in his penultimate post that generally &#8220;religious committments follow political ones&#8221; is over-hasty and certainly false in my own experience.  I myself was a staunch Democrat for decades during which I was a typical lukewarm, cafateria Catholic.  Only after a relatively late return to a robust Catholic orthodoxy in my late 30&#8242;s did my political views begin to change.  The Democrats&#8217; thralldom to the culture of death (i.e., abortion and same-sex marriage) has made it now impossible for me to support the party or its candidates any longer, even though I cannot work up any enthusiasm for the Republicans either.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/28/religion-and-republicans/comment-page-1/#comment-70440</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2012 13:43:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=46911#comment-70440</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;David, there are indeed problems with both parties. &lt;/i&gt;

Jy,

That&#039;s my basic point. We may not fully agree on what those problems are, and I certainly may be wrong about specific critiques of the Republican policies. But I don&#039;t think I am wrong in saying: &quot;I really don’t see how someone who wants to be a good Christian can feel completely at home in either the Democratic &lt;i&gt;or&lt;/i&gt; the Republican Party.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>David, there are indeed problems with both parties. </i></p>
<p>Jy,</p>
<p>That&#8217;s my basic point. We may not fully agree on what those problems are, and I certainly may be wrong about specific critiques of the Republican policies. But I don&#8217;t think I am wrong in saying: &#8220;I really don’t see how someone who wants to be a good Christian can feel completely at home in either the Democratic <i>or</i> the Republican Party.&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/28/religion-and-republicans/comment-page-1/#comment-70439</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2012 13:36:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=46911#comment-70439</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;But then looking at it that way would mean giving your opponents some credit, which would require a bit less rabid partisanship, wouldn’t it?&lt;/i&gt;

Fred (and others),

My point was as follows: &quot;I really don’t see how someone who wants to be a good Christian can feel completely at home in either the Democratic or the Republican Party.&quot; We can quarrel over individual issues, and we can quarrel over which party is closest to reflecting Christian teachings, but I simply don&#039;t see how anyone could maintain that all of Christian teaching is supported by one party and none of it is supported by the other. 

Any Christian who worships at the altar of the Republican Party &lt;i&gt;or&lt;/i&gt; the Democratic Party has seriously mixed up politics with religion. 

I do, by the way, think many people&#039;s political views are less influenced by their religious views than their religious views are influenced by their political views. I think many people form their political and economic views and then try to justify them based on religious principles, rather than starting with their religious principles and arriving at a political position.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>But then looking at it that way would mean giving your opponents some credit, which would require a bit less rabid partisanship, wouldn’t it?</i></p>
<p>Fred (and others),</p>
<p>My point was as follows: &#8220;I really don’t see how someone who wants to be a good Christian can feel completely at home in either the Democratic or the Republican Party.&#8221; We can quarrel over individual issues, and we can quarrel over which party is closest to reflecting Christian teachings, but I simply don&#8217;t see how anyone could maintain that all of Christian teaching is supported by one party and none of it is supported by the other. </p>
<p>Any Christian who worships at the altar of the Republican Party <i>or</i> the Democratic Party has seriously mixed up politics with religion. </p>
<p>I do, by the way, think many people&#8217;s political views are less influenced by their religious views than their religious views are influenced by their political views. I think many people form their political and economic views and then try to justify them based on religious principles, rather than starting with their religious principles and arriving at a political position.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jy</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/28/religion-and-republicans/comment-page-1/#comment-70436</link>
		<dc:creator>Jy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2012 13:04:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=46911#comment-70436</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David, there are indeed problems with both parties. However, the question of how best to provide medical *care* (not merely insurance) to the poor, or indeed how high taxes should be are in the category of &quot;prudential&quot; than the question of whether abortion should be supported. I would be hesitant to say that the Democratic party has lately put forth any truly ennobling and helpful solutions for the poor that make them &quot;holier&quot; in this regard.  Not that there have been many great plans from the Republicans thus far, but I do find that they have more room for people who want to create plans that don&#039;t merely send more power and control to Washington.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, there are indeed problems with both parties. However, the question of how best to provide medical *care* (not merely insurance) to the poor, or indeed how high taxes should be are in the category of &#8220;prudential&#8221; than the question of whether abortion should be supported. I would be hesitant to say that the Democratic party has lately put forth any truly ennobling and helpful solutions for the poor that make them &#8220;holier&#8221; in this regard.  Not that there have been many great plans from the Republicans thus far, but I do find that they have more room for people who want to create plans that don&#8217;t merely send more power and control to Washington.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
