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	<title>Comments on: A Liberal&#8217;s Letter to Republican Catholics</title>
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		<title>By: OldWhig</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/29/a-liberals-letter-to-republican-catholics/comment-page-1/#comment-70883</link>
		<dc:creator>OldWhig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Sep 2012 22:43:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47040#comment-70883</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;...the government plays a crucial role in the creation of a just society...&quot;

If the goal of Christian political involvement is to &quot;create&quot; a just society, then naturally the government will be THE crucial player, for among earthly powers only Leviathan can fool us into thinking it capable of creation. 

If the goal is to ACT JUSTLY, in ways that do right by the poor and needy, as natural and divine law define right, then government will be only one, and not often the most important, player.

It is precisely the pretension of &quot;creation&quot; that is at the heart of the Left&#039;s illusions: the idea that a complex society can be re-engineered from the ground up by a smart and compassionate elite, so that the outcome is some pattern of social and economic relationships arbitrarily described as &quot;justice.&quot;

Catholic concern for the poor and needy would be more impressive to many conservatives if it gave evidence of having thought through and consistently rejected the idea of &quot;creating&quot; a particular kind of society through social and economic engineering.

That means accepting that we cannot have it all, that the imagined perfect is often the enemy of the attainable good, that there are costs to all our actions, most of them unpredictable.

For example, are we allowed to entertain the possibility that we may not be able to do away with &quot;income inequality&quot; without doing away at the same time with income itself, impoverishing everybody but the powerful? Maybe the good that economic policy can accomplish is a rising tide that lifts at least most boats, even though some boats rise higher than others for no good reason that we can see. 

The left today seems to have no actual plan for  bringing in the Just Society, just an insistence that nothing less will do. That is why they would rather stagger on doggedly towards the abyss than think about Ryan&#039;s very moderate reforms of entitlement programs that might keep them functional and helpful to needy people. Such reforms would make them imperfect in design from the point of view of the Left&#039;s dream of &quot;justice.&quot; It would be better for all of us to fall into the abyss than just to help people without seeking perfection. That is the nihilism of the contemporary Left, what is left to them after the Left&#039;s Century, the disastrous 20th.

I share the concern that the Right&#039;s thinking has been overinfluenced by libertarianism since the end of the Cold War. But if Catholics want to lecture conservatives about the corruptions of libertarianism, they need to give evidence of having broken free of the illusions of the Left.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;the government plays a crucial role in the creation of a just society&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>If the goal of Christian political involvement is to &#8220;create&#8221; a just society, then naturally the government will be THE crucial player, for among earthly powers only Leviathan can fool us into thinking it capable of creation. </p>
<p>If the goal is to ACT JUSTLY, in ways that do right by the poor and needy, as natural and divine law define right, then government will be only one, and not often the most important, player.</p>
<p>It is precisely the pretension of &#8220;creation&#8221; that is at the heart of the Left&#8217;s illusions: the idea that a complex society can be re-engineered from the ground up by a smart and compassionate elite, so that the outcome is some pattern of social and economic relationships arbitrarily described as &#8220;justice.&#8221;</p>
<p>Catholic concern for the poor and needy would be more impressive to many conservatives if it gave evidence of having thought through and consistently rejected the idea of &#8220;creating&#8221; a particular kind of society through social and economic engineering.</p>
<p>That means accepting that we cannot have it all, that the imagined perfect is often the enemy of the attainable good, that there are costs to all our actions, most of them unpredictable.</p>
<p>For example, are we allowed to entertain the possibility that we may not be able to do away with &#8220;income inequality&#8221; without doing away at the same time with income itself, impoverishing everybody but the powerful? Maybe the good that economic policy can accomplish is a rising tide that lifts at least most boats, even though some boats rise higher than others for no good reason that we can see. </p>
<p>The left today seems to have no actual plan for  bringing in the Just Society, just an insistence that nothing less will do. That is why they would rather stagger on doggedly towards the abyss than think about Ryan&#8217;s very moderate reforms of entitlement programs that might keep them functional and helpful to needy people. Such reforms would make them imperfect in design from the point of view of the Left&#8217;s dream of &#8220;justice.&#8221; It would be better for all of us to fall into the abyss than just to help people without seeking perfection. That is the nihilism of the contemporary Left, what is left to them after the Left&#8217;s Century, the disastrous 20th.</p>
<p>I share the concern that the Right&#8217;s thinking has been overinfluenced by libertarianism since the end of the Cold War. But if Catholics want to lecture conservatives about the corruptions of libertarianism, they need to give evidence of having broken free of the illusions of the Left.</p>
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		<title>By: J.W. Cox</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/29/a-liberals-letter-to-republican-catholics/comment-page-1/#comment-70788</link>
		<dc:creator>J.W. Cox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Sep 2012 13:33:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47040#comment-70788</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I read Winters&#039; post at NCR, and found jarring the contrast between his tone -- just reasonable folks laying out undeniable truths for consideration -- and his actual reasoning.

I find &quot;libertarianism&quot; as a fully-defined and -embraced &quot;ism&quot; to be morally repellant, and I did so before I became a Roman Catholic. But to simply assert that this &quot;ism&quot; has &quot;taken root in the Republican Party&quot; -- without bothering to examine what or how libertarian thinking is influencing concrete Republican policy proposals -- is shoddy. 

[As an example, Mark Shea (and I believe Winters also)  has condemned Paul Ryan because Ryan says he was greatly influenced by Ayn Rand. But neither Shea nor Winters has shown in what ways Ryan&#039;s thinking or acting actually has influenced Ryan -- what Ryan has actually taken from Rand, and used in his policy proposals.]

In Winters&#039; NCR post, he links to the &quot;great article about Catholic teaching on the sin of income inequality.&quot; The article consists of quotes, the first set from historians and economists, the second from popes and Vatican 2. Focusing on the second set, all agree that social and economic equality is unjust, and advocated, in the name of justice, a more equitable distribution of goods and services. 

But surely the issue for most Catholics who think about these issues is not &quot;the Church is wrong about more equitable distribution&quot; but &quot;what does &#039;more equitable distribution means&#039;&quot; and &quot;what are the best ways to achieve it?&quot;

The quote from Pope Pius IX for example has this: &quot;...the huge disparity between the few exceedingly rich and the unnumbered propertyless.&quot; That seems to suggest that the pope saw that a key, perhaps the key, to this injustice lies in the fact that vast numbers are without property. That&#039;s not something that I hear many progressives, especially progressive Catholics, talking about -- what is the best way to ensure that the propertyless class joins the propertied class?

Paul VI&#039;s quote focuses on the inequality of power even more than that of goods: insightfully so, since the perversion of crony capitalism, so evident in the favor-trading of both the Republican and Democratic parties, perverts the &quot;blind eye&quot; of the market to the detriment of the propertyless who seek to own property.

Finally, Winters talks only generally about &quot;rising income inequality&quot; without looking at specific influences or indeed at any numbers whatsoever. One area where this is, apparently, undeniable, is the striking rise in poverty for single-women-with-children. This seems to be a situation in which several currents are converging: the devaluation of marriage (and the implications), and of the positive relationship between marriage and income levels especially for women and children, the earnest and misplaced campaign to de-stigmatize single motherhood, and so on.

The complexity of that poverty nexus isn&#039;t going to be solved by simply increasing taxes to increase transfer payments.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read Winters&#8217; post at NCR, and found jarring the contrast between his tone &#8212; just reasonable folks laying out undeniable truths for consideration &#8212; and his actual reasoning.</p>
<p>I find &#8220;libertarianism&#8221; as a fully-defined and -embraced &#8220;ism&#8221; to be morally repellant, and I did so before I became a Roman Catholic. But to simply assert that this &#8220;ism&#8221; has &#8220;taken root in the Republican Party&#8221; &#8212; without bothering to examine what or how libertarian thinking is influencing concrete Republican policy proposals &#8212; is shoddy. </p>
<p>[As an example, Mark Shea (and I believe Winters also)  has condemned Paul Ryan because Ryan says he was greatly influenced by Ayn Rand. But neither Shea nor Winters has shown in what ways Ryan's thinking or acting actually has influenced Ryan -- what Ryan has actually taken from Rand, and used in his policy proposals.]</p>
<p>In Winters&#8217; NCR post, he links to the &#8220;great article about Catholic teaching on the sin of income inequality.&#8221; The article consists of quotes, the first set from historians and economists, the second from popes and Vatican 2. Focusing on the second set, all agree that social and economic equality is unjust, and advocated, in the name of justice, a more equitable distribution of goods and services. </p>
<p>But surely the issue for most Catholics who think about these issues is not &#8220;the Church is wrong about more equitable distribution&#8221; but &#8220;what does &#8216;more equitable distribution means&#8217;&#8221; and &#8220;what are the best ways to achieve it?&#8221;</p>
<p>The quote from Pope Pius IX for example has this: &#8220;&#8230;the huge disparity between the few exceedingly rich and the unnumbered propertyless.&#8221; That seems to suggest that the pope saw that a key, perhaps the key, to this injustice lies in the fact that vast numbers are without property. That&#8217;s not something that I hear many progressives, especially progressive Catholics, talking about &#8212; what is the best way to ensure that the propertyless class joins the propertied class?</p>
<p>Paul VI&#8217;s quote focuses on the inequality of power even more than that of goods: insightfully so, since the perversion of crony capitalism, so evident in the favor-trading of both the Republican and Democratic parties, perverts the &#8220;blind eye&#8221; of the market to the detriment of the propertyless who seek to own property.</p>
<p>Finally, Winters talks only generally about &#8220;rising income inequality&#8221; without looking at specific influences or indeed at any numbers whatsoever. One area where this is, apparently, undeniable, is the striking rise in poverty for single-women-with-children. This seems to be a situation in which several currents are converging: the devaluation of marriage (and the implications), and of the positive relationship between marriage and income levels especially for women and children, the earnest and misplaced campaign to de-stigmatize single motherhood, and so on.</p>
<p>The complexity of that poverty nexus isn&#8217;t going to be solved by simply increasing taxes to increase transfer payments.</p>
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		<title>By: William Eberwein</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/29/a-liberals-letter-to-republican-catholics/comment-page-1/#comment-70680</link>
		<dc:creator>William Eberwein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Aug 2012 18:58:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47040#comment-70680</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is an area of intellectual difficulty for me.  The author, and applauded as &quot;prescient&quot; by First Things, equates &quot;governments providing adequate health care and other human needs&quot; with Christ&#039;s command to care for the poor. This is such a wild equation that one does not know where to start. I vote that YOU give your money to HER because she NEEDS something. That is not charity.

I think it comes from the European model of kings, which was used to create the papacy and corresponding structures. It becomes assumed that &quot;good stuff comes from the king&quot; rather than the American model of all power residing with the people.

I agree that humanism is a very present danger in hanging with Libertarians, although WFB was one throughout his very faithful political and Catholic life.

The cure for &quot;income inequality&quot; is generosity, not government programs. That Bill Gates and Steve Jobs became wealthier than I is not something that bothers me. My life is materially and emotionally better because of their contribution. Even spiritually, as I carry my bible and breviary on my iPad.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an area of intellectual difficulty for me.  The author, and applauded as &#8220;prescient&#8221; by First Things, equates &#8220;governments providing adequate health care and other human needs&#8221; with Christ&#8217;s command to care for the poor. This is such a wild equation that one does not know where to start. I vote that YOU give your money to HER because she NEEDS something. That is not charity.</p>
<p>I think it comes from the European model of kings, which was used to create the papacy and corresponding structures. It becomes assumed that &#8220;good stuff comes from the king&#8221; rather than the American model of all power residing with the people.</p>
<p>I agree that humanism is a very present danger in hanging with Libertarians, although WFB was one throughout his very faithful political and Catholic life.</p>
<p>The cure for &#8220;income inequality&#8221; is generosity, not government programs. That Bill Gates and Steve Jobs became wealthier than I is not something that bothers me. My life is materially and emotionally better because of their contribution. Even spiritually, as I carry my bible and breviary on my iPad.</p>
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		<title>By: Esteban</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/29/a-liberals-letter-to-republican-catholics/comment-page-1/#comment-70658</link>
		<dc:creator>Esteban</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Aug 2012 14:12:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47040#comment-70658</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Those evil Republicans!  They want to take the country back to the dark ages of 1997!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those evil Republicans!  They want to take the country back to the dark ages of 1997!</p>
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		<title>By: Graham Combs</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/29/a-liberals-letter-to-republican-catholics/comment-page-1/#comment-70644</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham Combs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Aug 2012 04:00:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47040#comment-70644</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Was it business that destroyed the family as first warned by Sen. Moynihan and recently documented by Prof. Murray?    Or was it social engineering in the name of economic security and educating the young?  Now of course thanks to so many social justice/social activist campaigns even business is  part of the effort to redefine everything intimate and personal and private - particularly the family.  I can tell you that Target now asks prospective employees if they will follow &quot;traditional values&quot; in the work place.  What an odd question.  What could it possibly mean?  What connnection could it have to the ubiquitous &quot;diversity orientations&quot;  now found in every large business?   My impression of so many in the Catholic Church is that they haven&#039;t begun to asks these questions much less think about what one sees all around us.   Income inequality?   First you have to have a job.   Social injustice?   Without family or faith or values or education or constitutional order or fundamental decency?   This week the Archdiocese of Detroit is buying back guns in the imploded and blasted urban heath known as the Motor City.  Where does one begin the address the futility and the thoughtlessness behind it?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Was it business that destroyed the family as first warned by Sen. Moynihan and recently documented by Prof. Murray?    Or was it social engineering in the name of economic security and educating the young?  Now of course thanks to so many social justice/social activist campaigns even business is  part of the effort to redefine everything intimate and personal and private &#8211; particularly the family.  I can tell you that Target now asks prospective employees if they will follow &#8220;traditional values&#8221; in the work place.  What an odd question.  What could it possibly mean?  What connnection could it have to the ubiquitous &#8220;diversity orientations&#8221;  now found in every large business?   My impression of so many in the Catholic Church is that they haven&#8217;t begun to asks these questions much less think about what one sees all around us.   Income inequality?   First you have to have a job.   Social injustice?   Without family or faith or values or education or constitutional order or fundamental decency?   This week the Archdiocese of Detroit is buying back guns in the imploded and blasted urban heath known as the Motor City.  Where does one begin the address the futility and the thoughtlessness behind it?</p>
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		<title>By: Graham Combs</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/29/a-liberals-letter-to-republican-catholics/comment-page-1/#comment-70642</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham Combs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Aug 2012 03:52:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47040#comment-70642</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Was it business that destroyed the family as first warned by Sen. Moynihan and recently documented by Prof. Murray?    Or was it social engineering in the name of economic security and educating the young?  Now of course thanks to so many social justice/social activist campaigns even business is  part of the effort to redefine everything intimate and personal and private - particularly the family.  I can tell you that Target now asks prospective employees if they will follow &quot;traditional values&quot; in the work place.  What an odd question.  What could it possibly mean?  What connnection could it have to the ubiquitous &quot;diversity orientations&quot;  now found in every large business?   My impression of so many in the Catholic Church is that they haven&#039;t begun to asks these questions much less think about what one sees all around us.   Income inequality?   First you have to have a job.   Social injustice?   Without family or faith or values or education or constitutional order or fundamental decency?   This week the Archdiocese of Detroit is buying back guns in the imploded and blasted urban heath known as the Motor City.  Where does one begin the address the futility and the thoughtlessness behind it]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Was it business that destroyed the family as first warned by Sen. Moynihan and recently documented by Prof. Murray?    Or was it social engineering in the name of economic security and educating the young?  Now of course thanks to so many social justice/social activist campaigns even business is  part of the effort to redefine everything intimate and personal and private &#8211; particularly the family.  I can tell you that Target now asks prospective employees if they will follow &#8220;traditional values&#8221; in the work place.  What an odd question.  What could it possibly mean?  What connnection could it have to the ubiquitous &#8220;diversity orientations&#8221;  now found in every large business?   My impression of so many in the Catholic Church is that they haven&#8217;t begun to asks these questions much less think about what one sees all around us.   Income inequality?   First you have to have a job.   Social injustice?   Without family or faith or values or education or constitutional order or fundamental decency?   This week the Archdiocese of Detroit is buying back guns in the imploded and blasted urban heath known as the Motor City.  Where does one begin the address the futility and the thoughtlessness behind it</p>
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		<title>By: Elmo</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/29/a-liberals-letter-to-republican-catholics/comment-page-1/#comment-70631</link>
		<dc:creator>Elmo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2012 22:34:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47040#comment-70631</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[While what Winters says about the Church&#039;s opinion on social justice is true as far as I know, I want to point out three things:
1. I agree with the Catholic Church on this, but one can disagree with the Church in good conscience on the most effective way to provide for the poor and protect the weak. The Church doesn&#039;t claim infallibility here.
2. &quot;Government&quot; does not equal &quot;national government&quot;. Many of the things Winters mentioned could be handled most effectively, and most in accord with the humanism of JPII, if handled on a state or local level. I reject the mentality that every problem that requires government intervention, requires NATIONAL government intervention. 
3. This issue is not a central issue to this election. The contrast between Republicans and Democrats in this election is greater than ever. The Republican party is not perfect, but the majority of it&#039;s positions (especially the important ones) are right in line with Catholic teaching.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While what Winters says about the Church&#8217;s opinion on social justice is true as far as I know, I want to point out three things:<br />
1. I agree with the Catholic Church on this, but one can disagree with the Church in good conscience on the most effective way to provide for the poor and protect the weak. The Church doesn&#8217;t claim infallibility here.<br />
2. &#8220;Government&#8221; does not equal &#8220;national government&#8221;. Many of the things Winters mentioned could be handled most effectively, and most in accord with the humanism of JPII, if handled on a state or local level. I reject the mentality that every problem that requires government intervention, requires NATIONAL government intervention.<br />
3. This issue is not a central issue to this election. The contrast between Republicans and Democrats in this election is greater than ever. The Republican party is not perfect, but the majority of it&#8217;s positions (especially the important ones) are right in line with Catholic teaching.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/29/a-liberals-letter-to-republican-catholics/comment-page-1/#comment-70597</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2012 17:26:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47040#comment-70597</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The statistics show income inequality is rising among households, not individuals. The rising inequality is thus a matter of how we structure our households, which is only somewhat related to economics and more strongly related to social ethics - those individual/community and bedroom issues. It&#039;s a question of single-person households. It&#039;s a question of persons marrying later in life, if at all, and largely among established income levels. It&#039;s a question of institutionalizing and rejecting of our poorer family and friends. If libertarianism is a threat, which I agree it is (especially among those who dismiss principles or forge their own to justify the temporary circumstances), its impact through economics is not to blame for rising income inequality.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The statistics show income inequality is rising among households, not individuals. The rising inequality is thus a matter of how we structure our households, which is only somewhat related to economics and more strongly related to social ethics &#8211; those individual/community and bedroom issues. It&#8217;s a question of single-person households. It&#8217;s a question of persons marrying later in life, if at all, and largely among established income levels. It&#8217;s a question of institutionalizing and rejecting of our poorer family and friends. If libertarianism is a threat, which I agree it is (especially among those who dismiss principles or forge their own to justify the temporary circumstances), its impact through economics is not to blame for rising income inequality.</p>
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		<title>By: Judy K. Warner</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/29/a-liberals-letter-to-republican-catholics/comment-page-1/#comment-70587</link>
		<dc:creator>Judy K. Warner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2012 16:31:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47040#comment-70587</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Communitarian and collectivist are not synonymous, though Obama is doing his best to make you believe they are.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Communitarian and collectivist are not synonymous, though Obama is doing his best to make you believe they are.</p>
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		<title>By: BE</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/29/a-liberals-letter-to-republican-catholics/comment-page-1/#comment-70573</link>
		<dc:creator>BE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2012 14:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47040#comment-70573</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If little platoons are so important what do we consider Walmart to be? A slightly bigger platoon? Give me a break. Little platoons have no chance faced with bigger platoons, thus small businesses are destroyed by huge corporations. Why voters would buy the rhetoric and not the reality is beyond me. And as for Catholics, we are INNATELY communitarian because we know everyone is either part of the Body of Christ or potentially so. Nothing could be further from this than Ayn Rand&#039;s selfish individualism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If little platoons are so important what do we consider Walmart to be? A slightly bigger platoon? Give me a break. Little platoons have no chance faced with bigger platoons, thus small businesses are destroyed by huge corporations. Why voters would buy the rhetoric and not the reality is beyond me. And as for Catholics, we are INNATELY communitarian because we know everyone is either part of the Body of Christ or potentially so. Nothing could be further from this than Ayn Rand&#8217;s selfish individualism.</p>
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