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	<title>Comments on: Legally Recognized Multi-Partner Unions: Why Not?</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/29/legally-recognized-multi-partner-unions-why-not/</link>
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		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/29/legally-recognized-multi-partner-unions-why-not/comment-page-1/#comment-70722</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Sep 2012 18:53:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47058#comment-70722</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;I don’t know why such a domestic partnership–or civil union, or New Marriage, or whatever you want to call it—needs to have a sexual-romantic aspect at all. &lt;/i&gt;

There are already documented cases of siblings wanting to &#039;marry&#039; - not because they&#039;re incestuous, but because they live together for pragmatic reasons &amp; want benefits.

Once you have unhinged a word from everything it ever meant - and every function it meaningfully serves - it can mean anything; the only restriction is what people will accept, allow, tolerate, vote for, or refuse to accept. 

Like so many other ethical situations, we have the choice between integrity on the one hand, and &quot;might makes right&quot; on the other. The fantasy is the belief that there can be something &quot;in between&quot; - there can&#039;t and there isn&#039;t.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I don’t know why such a domestic partnership–or civil union, or New Marriage, or whatever you want to call it—needs to have a sexual-romantic aspect at all. </i></p>
<p>There are already documented cases of siblings wanting to &#8216;marry&#8217; &#8211; not because they&#8217;re incestuous, but because they live together for pragmatic reasons &amp; want benefits.</p>
<p>Once you have unhinged a word from everything it ever meant &#8211; and every function it meaningfully serves &#8211; it can mean anything; the only restriction is what people will accept, allow, tolerate, vote for, or refuse to accept. </p>
<p>Like so many other ethical situations, we have the choice between integrity on the one hand, and &#8220;might makes right&#8221; on the other. The fantasy is the belief that there can be something &#8220;in between&#8221; &#8211; there can&#8217;t and there isn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Peg</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/29/legally-recognized-multi-partner-unions-why-not/comment-page-1/#comment-70589</link>
		<dc:creator>Peg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2012 16:36:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47058#comment-70589</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was addressing Robert George&#039;s concern regarding marriage or its &quot;equivalent&quot;:

&quot;But what is the reason for those who propose to ditch the conjugal understanding of marriage and replace it with a conception of marriage as sexual-romantic domestic partnership (what one opponent of the conjugal conception describes as your relationship “with your Number One Person”)?&quot;

I don&#039;t know why such a domestic partnership--or civil union, or New Marriage, or whatever you want to call it---needs to have a sexual-romantic aspect at all.  Says who, and why?  I don&#039;t know if the Brazilian threesome is actually a sexual/romantic partnership. The only reason given for their union is to protect survivors&#039; interests in the case of separation or death.

So, I don&#039;t know why anyone who ditches the traditional conjugal understanding of marriage would object on principle to plural marriage or plural civil unions, and I don&#039;t see why those relationships have to have a sexual or romantic component at all.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was addressing Robert George&#8217;s concern regarding marriage or its &#8220;equivalent&#8221;:</p>
<p>&#8220;But what is the reason for those who propose to ditch the conjugal understanding of marriage and replace it with a conception of marriage as sexual-romantic domestic partnership (what one opponent of the conjugal conception describes as your relationship “with your Number One Person”)?&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know why such a domestic partnership&#8211;or civil union, or New Marriage, or whatever you want to call it&#8212;needs to have a sexual-romantic aspect at all.  Says who, and why?  I don&#8217;t know if the Brazilian threesome is actually a sexual/romantic partnership. The only reason given for their union is to protect survivors&#8217; interests in the case of separation or death.</p>
<p>So, I don&#8217;t know why anyone who ditches the traditional conjugal understanding of marriage would object on principle to plural marriage or plural civil unions, and I don&#8217;t see why those relationships have to have a sexual or romantic component at all.</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/29/legally-recognized-multi-partner-unions-why-not/comment-page-1/#comment-70584</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2012 15:54:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47058#comment-70584</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The proposal by “lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and allied activists, scholars, educators, writers, artists, lawyers, journalists, and community organizers” that Robert George is so distressed by seems similar to what many concerned about marriage and the state have proposed. As I understand it, it&#039;s a proposal to let the government recognize &lt;i&gt;households&lt;/i&gt; not marriages. Among other types of households, it specifies:

&lt;blockquote&gt; • Senior citizens living together, serving as each other’s caregivers, partners, and/or constructed families
 • Adult children living with and caring for their parents
 • Grandparents and other family members raising their children’s (and/or a relative’s) children
 • Single parent households
 • Extended families (especially in particular immigrant populations) living under one roof, whose members care for one another
 • Close friends and siblings who live together in long-term, committed, non-conjugal relationships, serving as each other’s primary support and caregivers&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It does not strike me as a crazy or subversive idea to recognize, and grant certain benefits to, couples or groups who share a residence and live together in an economic arrangement similar to that of &quot;traditional&quot; families or extended families. If some arrangements are &quot;committed, loving households in which there is more than one conjugal partner,&quot; I see no bar to recognizing the people as making up a &lt;i&gt;household.&lt;/i&gt; The argument is not that every legally recognized household is a marriage or the equivalent of a marriage. It is one thing to want to preserve and strengthen traditional marriage, which I think is a worthy goal. It is another thing to denigrate other living arrangements and deny them economic advantages that would be of benefit to them and to society as a whole. It does not seem to me that this is a &quot;zero-sum game.&quot; It is not that if traditional marriage is to &quot;win,&quot; every other living arrangement has to &quot;lose.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The proposal by “lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and allied activists, scholars, educators, writers, artists, lawyers, journalists, and community organizers” that Robert George is so distressed by seems similar to what many concerned about marriage and the state have proposed. As I understand it, it&#8217;s a proposal to let the government recognize <i>households</i> not marriages. Among other types of households, it specifies:</p>
<blockquote><p> • Senior citizens living together, serving as each other’s caregivers, partners, and/or constructed families<br />
 • Adult children living with and caring for their parents<br />
 • Grandparents and other family members raising their children’s (and/or a relative’s) children<br />
 • Single parent households<br />
 • Extended families (especially in particular immigrant populations) living under one roof, whose members care for one another<br />
 • Close friends and siblings who live together in long-term, committed, non-conjugal relationships, serving as each other’s primary support and caregivers</p></blockquote>
<p>It does not strike me as a crazy or subversive idea to recognize, and grant certain benefits to, couples or groups who share a residence and live together in an economic arrangement similar to that of &#8220;traditional&#8221; families or extended families. If some arrangements are &#8220;committed, loving households in which there is more than one conjugal partner,&#8221; I see no bar to recognizing the people as making up a <i>household.</i> The argument is not that every legally recognized household is a marriage or the equivalent of a marriage. It is one thing to want to preserve and strengthen traditional marriage, which I think is a worthy goal. It is another thing to denigrate other living arrangements and deny them economic advantages that would be of benefit to them and to society as a whole. It does not seem to me that this is a &#8220;zero-sum game.&#8221; It is not that if traditional marriage is to &#8220;win,&#8221; every other living arrangement has to &#8220;lose.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: jason taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/29/legally-recognized-multi-partner-unions-why-not/comment-page-1/#comment-70579</link>
		<dc:creator>jason taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2012 15:31:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47058#comment-70579</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Possibly because it is not the fact that Afghans are polygamous that brought American troops there, David.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Possibly because it is not the fact that Afghans are polygamous that brought American troops there, David.</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/29/legally-recognized-multi-partner-unions-why-not/comment-page-1/#comment-70569</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2012 14:21:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47058#comment-70569</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;For that matter, if one drops the conjugal understanding of marriage, why not also drop the sexual element as an essential part of the institution?&lt;/i&gt;

peg,

But the three-person union in Brazil is &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; a marriage. Civil unions are not marriages. 

On the other hand, about fifty countries worldwide have civil polygamous marriage, including one for which American troops are fighting and dying—Afghanistan. One (probably anomalous) civil union in Brazil ignites hysteria, but American troops are fighting and dying to preserve the Afghan government, with their polygamous marriages and mistreatment of women, and no one is concerned.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>For that matter, if one drops the conjugal understanding of marriage, why not also drop the sexual element as an essential part of the institution?</i></p>
<p>peg,</p>
<p>But the three-person union in Brazil is <i>not</i> a marriage. Civil unions are not marriages. </p>
<p>On the other hand, about fifty countries worldwide have civil polygamous marriage, including one for which American troops are fighting and dying—Afghanistan. One (probably anomalous) civil union in Brazil ignites hysteria, but American troops are fighting and dying to preserve the Afghan government, with their polygamous marriages and mistreatment of women, and no one is concerned.</p>
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		<title>By: peg</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/29/legally-recognized-multi-partner-unions-why-not/comment-page-1/#comment-70554</link>
		<dc:creator>peg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2012 11:32:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47058#comment-70554</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For that matter, if one drops the conjugal understanding of marriage, why not also drop the sexual element as an essential part of the institution?  

The threesome in Brazil entered into their civil union in order to preserve marital-type benefits in case of separation or death (alimony, pensions, inheritance?).  They already lived together, sharing  bills and other expenses in an arrangement formerly known as &quot;roommates&quot;.

Maybe one of the Brazilians is just a needy sibling, or (if that is still a taboo) a neighbor who lusted after the benefits package and not the bodies of the other roomates?

Who is going to check if the plural union is sexual--- or why should it matter anyway, as long as the implications of conjugal union are swept away?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For that matter, if one drops the conjugal understanding of marriage, why not also drop the sexual element as an essential part of the institution?  </p>
<p>The threesome in Brazil entered into their civil union in order to preserve marital-type benefits in case of separation or death (alimony, pensions, inheritance?).  They already lived together, sharing  bills and other expenses in an arrangement formerly known as &#8220;roommates&#8221;.</p>
<p>Maybe one of the Brazilians is just a needy sibling, or (if that is still a taboo) a neighbor who lusted after the benefits package and not the bodies of the other roomates?</p>
<p>Who is going to check if the plural union is sexual&#8212; or why should it matter anyway, as long as the implications of conjugal union are swept away?</p>
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