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Of course, Augustine was a young earth creationist, believing that the universe was created just several thousand years ago, because of the context of the relevant biblical texts. Which is why I always hate it when someone quotes Augustine and purports him to have supported something otherwise.

The fact of the matter is that there were *no* Christian theologians who ever thought or taught anything other than the basic young earth creationist belief that the universe was created by God just several thousand years ago, because of the Bible, until geologists (“naturalists”) came along early on in the development of serious geological science and demonstrated otherwise. Then, and only then, did Christian theologians develop alternate “interpretations” rather than just plainly and simply acknowledge the obvious fact that what the Bible says about such matters is just wrong.

Gotta try to preserve the notion, uh… doctrine of the divine inspiration of the Bible, you know.

So what about the doctrine of ‘The Fall’? I believe current scientific theory holds that there were never an original two humans. How can we have a fall without Adam and Eve. As a Catholic, I’m bound to believe in both. Do we continue to hold this doctrine, or have we cast it out like special creation and Noahs deluge?

This might be the position of uninformed Christians, but I can’t believe the smart people hold this, at least not followers of Aquinas.

David,
I guess this gets to the heart of the issue. I react at the deepest levels of my being with revulsion at the idea that death could be considered good. Hasn’t it always been Christian teaching that Christ transformed death by His death, thus gaining us the victory over this enemy? Anyway, my own attitude accords with this from Guardini;

“Man’s natural attitude toward death is one of protest. Besides his sense of self-preservation, which he shares with the other animals, he has a mental objection. He can see no sense in death….it is simply that he finds a state of things which admits death to be not well ordered.”

It was in no way a criticism of you, in fact, I find your adherence to objective morality very admirable. But you asked how people would explain it. And in my experience with religious people, the way to explain (in their view) apparent evils, is to say: “This is not evil when it is God’s will, God is good, and everything he wills becomes good.”

olaf,

I am not sure how it can be said that death is not good—although I certainly am not looking forward to my own! Death is part of the cycle of nature. We see death every year when winter comes, and we see new life again in spring. As I argued above, certainly we can’t claim that nothing died before “the Fall,” whatever we may interpret it to be. Baptism represents death and rebirth. We fear death far too much (and I definitely include myself). If you don’t believe in God, it’s a return of your elements to the cycle of life. If you do believe in God (or Christianity, anyway), it’s the gateway to eternal life.

Maximillian, I’m not sure what you’re saying here. I’m asserting that God’s use of death as the very engine of creation would be inconsistent with His nature – He IS Good and death is not good.

In the story of Adam and Eve, I find no hint that they were immortal. The reason they were banished from the Garden is so that they cannot eat of the Tree of Life and live forever. I suppose one can speculate that God intended for them to live forever, or that since they were not initially forbidden to eat of the Tree of Life, they were destined to live indefinitely. I don’t find that a convincing interpretation of the story.

If death is a result of sin, then how could Christ have died, if we assume that he was sinless?

Well a passing familiarity with Christianity would reveal that answer – “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”

If death is a result of sin, then how could Christ have died, if we assume that he was sinless?

Olaf: If a Good God can inflict such horrors on innocent creatures merely to prepare the arrival of man, are we justified in calling Him good?

Usually by tautologically defining ‘good’ as ‘whatever God wants/does’.