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	<title>Comments on: The Implications of Animal Consciousness</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/06/the-implications-of-animal-consciousness/</link>
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		<title>By: Crowhill</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/06/the-implications-of-animal-consciousness/comment-page-1/#comment-71090</link>
		<dc:creator>Crowhill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Sep 2012 12:50:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47347#comment-71090</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gian said, 

&quot;“the consciousness animals experience is remarkably similar to the consciousness humans experience”

&quot;How can the scientists possibly know this? Note “remarkably”.&quot; 

What they can know is what they can measure, which is activity in the brain. They certainly can&#039;t measure the subjective correlate to whatever is going on in the brain. 

However, if they know that activity in such and so portion of the brain corresponds to such and such feeling in a human, perhaps they could make a reasonable guess about what the animal is experiencing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gian said, </p>
<p>&#8220;“the consciousness animals experience is remarkably similar to the consciousness humans experience”</p>
<p>&#8220;How can the scientists possibly know this? Note “remarkably”.&#8221; </p>
<p>What they can know is what they can measure, which is activity in the brain. They certainly can&#8217;t measure the subjective correlate to whatever is going on in the brain. </p>
<p>However, if they know that activity in such and so portion of the brain corresponds to such and such feeling in a human, perhaps they could make a reasonable guess about what the animal is experiencing.</p>
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		<title>By: Lamont</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/06/the-implications-of-animal-consciousness/comment-page-1/#comment-71050</link>
		<dc:creator>Lamont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2012 19:36:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47347#comment-71050</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It should be noted that Feser’s main point is that there is almost nothing to be gained from comparing animal consciousness to human consciousness. Animal consciousness consists of an awareness of the individual things and physical processes that are accessible through the senses. What makes human consciousness different is that we are also aware of the abstract, immaterial, universal, and eternal aspects of reality. Humans have an awareness of ideas like goodness, truth, justice, beauty, and morality that animals know nothing about. 

Why is this important? It is because we know what a thing is by what it does. There are no exceptions to this principle. Since human beings can form abstract immaterial concepts, there must be in humans an immaterial mind or soul that can do immaterial things like reasoning and understanding. Those who reject God are driven to deny the existence of the human soul. They must argue that human beings are just like other animals even though it is obvious that human beings are not just animals.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It should be noted that Feser’s main point is that there is almost nothing to be gained from comparing animal consciousness to human consciousness. Animal consciousness consists of an awareness of the individual things and physical processes that are accessible through the senses. What makes human consciousness different is that we are also aware of the abstract, immaterial, universal, and eternal aspects of reality. Humans have an awareness of ideas like goodness, truth, justice, beauty, and morality that animals know nothing about. </p>
<p>Why is this important? It is because we know what a thing is by what it does. There are no exceptions to this principle. Since human beings can form abstract immaterial concepts, there must be in humans an immaterial mind or soul that can do immaterial things like reasoning and understanding. Those who reject God are driven to deny the existence of the human soul. They must argue that human beings are just like other animals even though it is obvious that human beings are not just animals.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Payne</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/06/the-implications-of-animal-consciousness/comment-page-1/#comment-71036</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2012 16:22:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47347#comment-71036</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear Anna Williams:  I just read your point about human exceptionalism, and I think you are right.  But certainly an argument for the non-material aspect of humans does tend to lead to exceptionalist claims, such as the one I was making.  So I think we&#039;re on the same page, pretty much.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Anna Williams:  I just read your point about human exceptionalism, and I think you are right.  But certainly an argument for the non-material aspect of humans does tend to lead to exceptionalist claims, such as the one I was making.  So I think we&#8217;re on the same page, pretty much.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Payne</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/06/the-implications-of-animal-consciousness/comment-page-1/#comment-71035</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2012 16:19:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47347#comment-71035</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Even grass has a soul, according to fairly traditional Christian teaching.  I think the point Feser is making is that vegetative and animal souls are &quot;of a certain type,&quot; and that human souls are of a distinctly different type.

In other words, he is just pointing out that we are not &quot;just animals,&quot; for those who want to use animal consciousness to that end.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even grass has a soul, according to fairly traditional Christian teaching.  I think the point Feser is making is that vegetative and animal souls are &#8220;of a certain type,&#8221; and that human souls are of a distinctly different type.</p>
<p>In other words, he is just pointing out that we are not &#8220;just animals,&#8221; for those who want to use animal consciousness to that end.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/06/the-implications-of-animal-consciousness/comment-page-1/#comment-71033</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2012 16:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47347#comment-71033</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[By definition, consciousness as experienced by animals must be very like that experienced by humans.  That&#039;s why we can subsume it under the single word.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By definition, consciousness as experienced by animals must be very like that experienced by humans.  That&#8217;s why we can subsume it under the single word.</p>
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		<title>By: Tristian</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/06/the-implications-of-animal-consciousness/comment-page-1/#comment-71029</link>
		<dc:creator>Tristian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2012 14:53:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47347#comment-71029</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The thought that these kinds of finding have some enormous bearing on the question of “human exceptionalism” grows out of how controversies about animal rights and animal welfare have been framed over the last 40 years.  Peter Singer and others have successfully linked “speciesism” and its evils to the idea that humans are unique in some way that puts them in a special moral category.  They have also successfully tied both to “the Judeo-Christian tradition.”   Feser is right too in suggesting that broadly Cartesian assumptions have furthered encouraged many to link the idea that humans are special to our having an immaterial soul or mind animals lack.  Lastly, a common move against this carefully constructed picture is to argue that it’s undermined by modern biology, which has made Cartesian dualism implausible and which highlights the continuities between human and animal cognition.  (James Rachels’ &quot;Created From Animals&quot; is a particularly good example of this argumentative strategy.)  Against this background, the kinds of results reported here can look to be a big deal.

While it’s obvious enough that discoveries that compel us to attribute consciousness to more and more of the animal world have very significant moral implications for how we treat other animals, overall the way in which these questions have been framed is wrong from start to finish.  A belief in “human exceptionalism”—in the sense that humans are in a different moral category than other things--can be found in traditions uninfluenced by either the “Judeo-Christian” tradition or Cartesianism.   Some of these---Confucianism for example—are not committed to any kind of a mind/body split, or to anything suggesting a radical ontological distinction between humans and other animals.   The ethical pictures that come out of these kinds of tradition is as untouched by the neurophysiological discoveries as Feser’s Aristotelianism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thought that these kinds of finding have some enormous bearing on the question of “human exceptionalism” grows out of how controversies about animal rights and animal welfare have been framed over the last 40 years.  Peter Singer and others have successfully linked “speciesism” and its evils to the idea that humans are unique in some way that puts them in a special moral category.  They have also successfully tied both to “the Judeo-Christian tradition.”   Feser is right too in suggesting that broadly Cartesian assumptions have furthered encouraged many to link the idea that humans are special to our having an immaterial soul or mind animals lack.  Lastly, a common move against this carefully constructed picture is to argue that it’s undermined by modern biology, which has made Cartesian dualism implausible and which highlights the continuities between human and animal cognition.  (James Rachels’ &#8220;Created From Animals&#8221; is a particularly good example of this argumentative strategy.)  Against this background, the kinds of results reported here can look to be a big deal.</p>
<p>While it’s obvious enough that discoveries that compel us to attribute consciousness to more and more of the animal world have very significant moral implications for how we treat other animals, overall the way in which these questions have been framed is wrong from start to finish.  A belief in “human exceptionalism”—in the sense that humans are in a different moral category than other things&#8211;can be found in traditions uninfluenced by either the “Judeo-Christian” tradition or Cartesianism.   Some of these&#8212;Confucianism for example—are not committed to any kind of a mind/body split, or to anything suggesting a radical ontological distinction between humans and other animals.   The ethical pictures that come out of these kinds of tradition is as untouched by the neurophysiological discoveries as Feser’s Aristotelianism.</p>
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		<title>By: Anna Williams</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/06/the-implications-of-animal-consciousness/comment-page-1/#comment-71026</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2012 14:04:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47347#comment-71026</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nickp,

I don&#039;t think Feser is assuming/arguing that animal consciousness is merely material -- he&#039;s only saying that our current knowledge of animal consciousness does not prove that the &lt;i&gt;human&lt;/i&gt; mind is merely material. Again, the scientists in the declaration did not say that it was, but some press coverage has leaned in that direction. 

The materiality/immateriality of human consciousness is related to human exceptionalism insofar as it&#039;s related to debates over free will vs determinism, the mind/brain debate, the soul, rationality, etc., as the writer of the HuffPo piece I linked to seems to recognize. Obviously Feser&#039;s piece and my post were much more limited in scope -- neither of us set out to defend human exceptionalism. But I think most people see animal consciousness as relevant to those debates -- and, as Bret points out, to the treatment of animals.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nickp,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think Feser is assuming/arguing that animal consciousness is merely material &#8212; he&#8217;s only saying that our current knowledge of animal consciousness does not prove that the <i>human</i> mind is merely material. Again, the scientists in the declaration did not say that it was, but some press coverage has leaned in that direction. </p>
<p>The materiality/immateriality of human consciousness is related to human exceptionalism insofar as it&#8217;s related to debates over free will vs determinism, the mind/brain debate, the soul, rationality, etc., as the writer of the HuffPo piece I linked to seems to recognize. Obviously Feser&#8217;s piece and my post were much more limited in scope &#8212; neither of us set out to defend human exceptionalism. But I think most people see animal consciousness as relevant to those debates &#8212; and, as Bret points out, to the treatment of animals.</p>
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		<title>By: Elizabeth D</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/06/the-implications-of-animal-consciousness/comment-page-1/#comment-71025</link>
		<dc:creator>Elizabeth D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2012 13:55:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47347#comment-71025</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The idea that animals lack consciousness, or are incapable of suffering, has always been contrary to observable reality. That animal consciousness is considerably similar to human consciousness is also to me obvious, from the experience of living and interacting with and training a variety of animals (horse, dog, grey parrot etc). When I first encountered the Catholic idea that only humans have &quot;intellect, memory and will&quot; I was baffled and rather upset by this claim, because of course animals are provably able to reason, to remember, and obviously have intentions and desires. If you did a study, in all likelihood you would find that those who deny that would be more likely to cause unnecessary suffering and death to animals (which the Catechism of the Catholic Church says is contrary to human dignity). In the Bible, God&#039;s covenant with Noah is also a covenant with the animals, though on very different terms than the people. But I have come to think that my confusion about &quot;intellect, memory and will&quot; was partly from not understanding adequately the meaning or significance of these in scholastic theology. They are the faculties by which man, created uniquely in God&#039;s image, is capable of union with God in love, capable of the moral and theological virtues, and ultimately capable of the Beatific Vision. The animals, similar though they are, capable though they are of friendship with men and working together with us, do not have this same capacity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The idea that animals lack consciousness, or are incapable of suffering, has always been contrary to observable reality. That animal consciousness is considerably similar to human consciousness is also to me obvious, from the experience of living and interacting with and training a variety of animals (horse, dog, grey parrot etc). When I first encountered the Catholic idea that only humans have &#8220;intellect, memory and will&#8221; I was baffled and rather upset by this claim, because of course animals are provably able to reason, to remember, and obviously have intentions and desires. If you did a study, in all likelihood you would find that those who deny that would be more likely to cause unnecessary suffering and death to animals (which the Catechism of the Catholic Church says is contrary to human dignity). In the Bible, God&#8217;s covenant with Noah is also a covenant with the animals, though on very different terms than the people. But I have come to think that my confusion about &#8220;intellect, memory and will&#8221; was partly from not understanding adequately the meaning or significance of these in scholastic theology. They are the faculties by which man, created uniquely in God&#8217;s image, is capable of union with God in love, capable of the moral and theological virtues, and ultimately capable of the Beatific Vision. The animals, similar though they are, capable though they are of friendship with men and working together with us, do not have this same capacity.</p>
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		<title>By: Nickp</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/06/the-implications-of-animal-consciousness/comment-page-1/#comment-71022</link>
		<dc:creator>Nickp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2012 13:00:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47347#comment-71022</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Anna,

But how is arguing that human consciousness is not merely material relevant to a defense of human exceptionalism?  Does Feser have an underlying assumption that animal consciousness IS merely material?  If so, what&#039;s his evidence?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anna,</p>
<p>But how is arguing that human consciousness is not merely material relevant to a defense of human exceptionalism?  Does Feser have an underlying assumption that animal consciousness IS merely material?  If so, what&#8217;s his evidence?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael PS</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/06/the-implications-of-animal-consciousness/comment-page-1/#comment-71013</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael PS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2012 09:42:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=47347#comment-71013</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gail Finke asks, “Who in the world has ever doubted that animals have consciousness?”

Well, quite a few people, actually, including some Catholic theologians.  Like Descartes, whose dualism they swallowed whole, via Malebranche, they thought that animals were mere automata, no more conscious than a cuckoo clock.  For them, animal behaviour was merely a complex of stimulus and response going on in the animal’s body, but with no conscious subject.  For them, “no (substantial) soul” meant “no mind,” hence, no consciousness.

Indeed, their whole account of consciousness was deeply flawed.  Misled by grammar, they assumed that “I” was a proper name.  In reality, of course, it is no more a referring expression than “it” is a referring expression in “it is raining.”]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gail Finke asks, “Who in the world has ever doubted that animals have consciousness?”</p>
<p>Well, quite a few people, actually, including some Catholic theologians.  Like Descartes, whose dualism they swallowed whole, via Malebranche, they thought that animals were mere automata, no more conscious than a cuckoo clock.  For them, animal behaviour was merely a complex of stimulus and response going on in the animal’s body, but with no conscious subject.  For them, “no (substantial) soul” meant “no mind,” hence, no consciousness.</p>
<p>Indeed, their whole account of consciousness was deeply flawed.  Misled by grammar, they assumed that “I” was a proper name.  In reality, of course, it is no more a referring expression than “it” is a referring expression in “it is raining.”</p>
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