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	<title>Comments on: John Rawls and the Progressive Totalitarian Temptation</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/20/john-rawls-and-the-progressive-totalitarian-temptation/</link>
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		<title>By: Tearfang</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/20/john-rawls-and-the-progressive-totalitarian-temptation/comment-page-1/#comment-75385</link>
		<dc:creator>Tearfang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Sep 2012 15:00:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48177#comment-75385</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with @Tex Tradd
Not only do progressives numerically dominate many influential fields in society measured by register party afflation and self reported voting patterns. America has many many progressive laws from the progressive income tax, to affirmative action. If people are going to be labeled traditionalists there is a good argument to be made that the liberal progressives are the modern traditionalists. I find the label traditionalist unhelpful though; it distracts from the real reasons that people disagree with each other. I’ve never met any self labeled traditionalists or people who uses tradition as the basis for their political thinking.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with @Tex Tradd<br />
Not only do progressives numerically dominate many influential fields in society measured by register party afflation and self reported voting patterns. America has many many progressive laws from the progressive income tax, to affirmative action. If people are going to be labeled traditionalists there is a good argument to be made that the liberal progressives are the modern traditionalists. I find the label traditionalist unhelpful though; it distracts from the real reasons that people disagree with each other. I’ve never met any self labeled traditionalists or people who uses tradition as the basis for their political thinking.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael PS</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/20/john-rawls-and-the-progressive-totalitarian-temptation/comment-page-1/#comment-75373</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael PS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Sep 2012 08:23:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48177#comment-75373</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Andrew writes

“i’d ask the liberal on what basis she believes that slavery (think sex trafficking), sorcery, torture, and persecution are any less prevalent today than in the past...”

But that is no part of the liberal argument.  Their whole point is that we are still living with the legacy of  tyranny and oppression bequeathed us by our ancestors; more than that, what they object to is the rule of the dead hand.

This is the point of Jefferson’s argument, “no society can make a perpetual constitution, or even a perpetual law.  The earth belongs always to the living generation...  The constitution and the laws of their predecessors extinguished themselves, in their natural course, with those whose will gave them being...  Every constitution, then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of 19 years.  If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force and not of right.”]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew writes</p>
<p>“i’d ask the liberal on what basis she believes that slavery (think sex trafficking), sorcery, torture, and persecution are any less prevalent today than in the past&#8230;”</p>
<p>But that is no part of the liberal argument.  Their whole point is that we are still living with the legacy of  tyranny and oppression bequeathed us by our ancestors; more than that, what they object to is the rule of the dead hand.</p>
<p>This is the point of Jefferson’s argument, “no society can make a perpetual constitution, or even a perpetual law.  The earth belongs always to the living generation&#8230;  The constitution and the laws of their predecessors extinguished themselves, in their natural course, with those whose will gave them being&#8230;  Every constitution, then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of 19 years.  If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force and not of right.”</p>
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		<title>By: Tristian</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/20/john-rawls-and-the-progressive-totalitarian-temptation/comment-page-1/#comment-75327</link>
		<dc:creator>Tristian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2012 15:02:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48177#comment-75327</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nice post--good to see R.R. Reno back in good form.  

Reno senses a &quot;latent contradiction&quot; in Rawls: &quot;our freedom depends on its proper development, and “proper development” necessarily requires judgments that are “metaphysical.” And thus the idea of public reason only works if people are guided in their reason by more than public reason.&quot;

It may be a little unfair to respond to a parenthetical remark an author explicitly says he doesn&#039;t want to pursue, but this is interesting I think, as I don&#039;t see a contradiction here.  Rawls is not assuming that the “proper development” of freedom requires no metaphysical commitments, or, to put it more concretely, that an upbringing and education within the constricted world of public reason is adequate to the development of freedom.  Rather he is assuming that there is an array of ‘comprehensive doctrines’ that can provide the framework necessary for this development.  And of course he’s is arguing that it’s not the place of the state to adjudicate the disagreements between them.

As for the remainder, I don’t see anything here that raises problems for Rawls.  In fact, to the extent the posed difference between progressives and conservatives is accurate, a Rawlsian framework seems a good one for allowing these disagreements to play out politically in a way both sides ought to accept.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice post&#8211;good to see R.R. Reno back in good form.  </p>
<p>Reno senses a &#8220;latent contradiction&#8221; in Rawls: &#8220;our freedom depends on its proper development, and “proper development” necessarily requires judgments that are “metaphysical.” And thus the idea of public reason only works if people are guided in their reason by more than public reason.&#8221;</p>
<p>It may be a little unfair to respond to a parenthetical remark an author explicitly says he doesn&#8217;t want to pursue, but this is interesting I think, as I don&#8217;t see a contradiction here.  Rawls is not assuming that the “proper development” of freedom requires no metaphysical commitments, or, to put it more concretely, that an upbringing and education within the constricted world of public reason is adequate to the development of freedom.  Rather he is assuming that there is an array of ‘comprehensive doctrines’ that can provide the framework necessary for this development.  And of course he’s is arguing that it’s not the place of the state to adjudicate the disagreements between them.</p>
<p>As for the remainder, I don’t see anything here that raises problems for Rawls.  In fact, to the extent the posed difference between progressives and conservatives is accurate, a Rawlsian framework seems a good one for allowing these disagreements to play out politically in a way both sides ought to accept.</p>
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		<title>By: Tex Tradd</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/20/john-rawls-and-the-progressive-totalitarian-temptation/comment-page-1/#comment-75288</link>
		<dc:creator>Tex Tradd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2012 23:34:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48177#comment-75288</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;progressives don’t have much in the way of soft, cultural power at their disposal&quot;

Given that so much of journalism, the media biz, Hollywood, the arts, and academia are disproportionately staffed by modern liberals and the hard-left, how could this be true? 

How much power do the storytellers and bards and interpreters of our culture have? How much do the &quot;experts&quot; have? That&#039;s soft power alright.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;progressives don’t have much in the way of soft, cultural power at their disposal&#8221;</p>
<p>Given that so much of journalism, the media biz, Hollywood, the arts, and academia are disproportionately staffed by modern liberals and the hard-left, how could this be true? </p>
<p>How much power do the storytellers and bards and interpreters of our culture have? How much do the &#8220;experts&#8221; have? That&#8217;s soft power alright.</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/20/john-rawls-and-the-progressive-totalitarian-temptation/comment-page-1/#comment-75269</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2012 17:21:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48177#comment-75269</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[michael,

i&#039;d ask the liberal on what basis she believes that slavery (think sex trafficking), sorcery, torture, and persecution are any less prevalent today than in the past.  ok, maybe sorcery exempted, if formally defined.  besides, what makes her think things won&#039;t get worse in the future?  why all the optimism?

i suspect the real problem has always been what theologians call the fall -- a post-lapsarian world filled with post-lapsarian people.  and the fundamental &quot;government&quot; that counts at the end of the day within the context of the fall is &quot;self-government&quot; or &quot;self-mastery&quot;, aka virtue. 

for some strange reason, liberals skip right over aristotle/thomas to rousseau and hobbes....  but can anything other than self-mastery lead to a &quot;better world,&quot; which is what we all want?

notice, of course, that these days, only traditionalists believe in the fall, in disordered appetites, in vice, and in virtue.  if progressives had their way, all we&#039;d need is more therapy, more social projects, more science, and more technology.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>michael,</p>
<p>i&#8217;d ask the liberal on what basis she believes that slavery (think sex trafficking), sorcery, torture, and persecution are any less prevalent today than in the past.  ok, maybe sorcery exempted, if formally defined.  besides, what makes her think things won&#8217;t get worse in the future?  why all the optimism?</p>
<p>i suspect the real problem has always been what theologians call the fall &#8212; a post-lapsarian world filled with post-lapsarian people.  and the fundamental &#8220;government&#8221; that counts at the end of the day within the context of the fall is &#8220;self-government&#8221; or &#8220;self-mastery&#8221;, aka virtue. </p>
<p>for some strange reason, liberals skip right over aristotle/thomas to rousseau and hobbes&#8230;.  but can anything other than self-mastery lead to a &#8220;better world,&#8221; which is what we all want?</p>
<p>notice, of course, that these days, only traditionalists believe in the fall, in disordered appetites, in vice, and in virtue.  if progressives had their way, all we&#8217;d need is more therapy, more social projects, more science, and more technology.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael PS</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/20/john-rawls-and-the-progressive-totalitarian-temptation/comment-page-1/#comment-75250</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael PS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2012 15:38:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48177#comment-75250</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[But this is hardly new.  It is almost the definition of a liberal that he believes that the past is more a warning than an example and refuses to be bound by the precepts of men who believed in slavery and sorcery, in torture and persecution.  He tends to regard history as an unbroken record of the defeat and frustration of freedom.  Why would he have anything to hope from existing institutions?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But this is hardly new.  It is almost the definition of a liberal that he believes that the past is more a warning than an example and refuses to be bound by the precepts of men who believed in slavery and sorcery, in torture and persecution.  He tends to regard history as an unbroken record of the defeat and frustration of freedom.  Why would he have anything to hope from existing institutions?</p>
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