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	<title>Comments on: Marriage Is Not Dead</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/27/marriage-is-not-dead/</link>
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		<title>By: Adam Baum</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/27/marriage-is-not-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-75991</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Baum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2012 17:01:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48562#comment-75991</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[While liberalized divorce laws preceded the efforts at radical redefinition of marriage, they are not the cause of yet another problem, but a symptom of a greater problem, so I must disagree with both the author and Ms. Gallagher. 

Both issues have a single etiology-the state&#039;s control over and interference with the institution of marriage. As such, we must seek the authors of the idea that the state was the proper trustee or conservator of marriage. Otherwise, as long as the state controls marriage,it will never be restored as a durable and clearly defined arrangement, because there is nothing in the history of government to suggest it that it will ever become a model of restraint, respect or constancy.  

Clearly, the idea of state regulation of marriage originated with two old adversaries, Henry the Eighth and Martin Luther. Both, for different reasons asserted state primacy over marriage. Henry wanted a divorce, even though he never apparently thought much of the restraints of marriage, seeking the divorce to pacify an object of adultery, and then became the father of temporary marrriage, taking and disposing of wives at whim, and subjugating church to state generally. Luther imprudently redefined marriage as subject to state regulation in one of a myriad of theological novelties. 

Now, some five centuries later, we see the accelerated unravelling of marriage in ways neither of hese men could imagine. Marriage is often foregone, easily dissolved and devoid of meaning because of the assertions of these men that it was a simple contract, with numerous clauses justifying it&#039;s dissolution.   

Unfortunately, to examine this requires asking a great many people, content with or dedicated to the rest of of the doctrines of these men to consider them as wrong-headed on such fundamental matter as to subject the entirety of their aassertions to critical inquiry.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While liberalized divorce laws preceded the efforts at radical redefinition of marriage, they are not the cause of yet another problem, but a symptom of a greater problem, so I must disagree with both the author and Ms. Gallagher. </p>
<p>Both issues have a single etiology-the state&#8217;s control over and interference with the institution of marriage. As such, we must seek the authors of the idea that the state was the proper trustee or conservator of marriage. Otherwise, as long as the state controls marriage,it will never be restored as a durable and clearly defined arrangement, because there is nothing in the history of government to suggest it that it will ever become a model of restraint, respect or constancy.  </p>
<p>Clearly, the idea of state regulation of marriage originated with two old adversaries, Henry the Eighth and Martin Luther. Both, for different reasons asserted state primacy over marriage. Henry wanted a divorce, even though he never apparently thought much of the restraints of marriage, seeking the divorce to pacify an object of adultery, and then became the father of temporary marrriage, taking and disposing of wives at whim, and subjugating church to state generally. Luther imprudently redefined marriage as subject to state regulation in one of a myriad of theological novelties. </p>
<p>Now, some five centuries later, we see the accelerated unravelling of marriage in ways neither of hese men could imagine. Marriage is often foregone, easily dissolved and devoid of meaning because of the assertions of these men that it was a simple contract, with numerous clauses justifying it&#8217;s dissolution.   </p>
<p>Unfortunately, to examine this requires asking a great many people, content with or dedicated to the rest of of the doctrines of these men to consider them as wrong-headed on such fundamental matter as to subject the entirety of their aassertions to critical inquiry.</p>
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		<title>By: Is Marriage Dead? &#124; Culture War Victory Fund</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/27/marriage-is-not-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-75844</link>
		<dc:creator>Is Marriage Dead? &#124; Culture War Victory Fund</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2012 19:28:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48562#comment-75844</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/27/marriage-is-not-dead/  My take:  If marriage really were dead, people would not respond so powerfully to the idea that marriage matters because children need their mom and dad.  Despair is the most potent spiritual weapon the Enemy has against us.  If you despair, I respect that, but why try to get others who have hope to despair?  Do the things for which you have hope. But you may be wrong about the future.  Do not discourage others who have hope from acting on it.  My other reaction:  Our &#8220;traditional&#8221; view of marriage was one by the Church over several hundred years of argument with Pagan philosophers. What we did once, we can do again. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] <a href="http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/27/marriage-is-not-dead/" rel="nofollow">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/27/marriage-is-not-dead/</a>  My take:  If marriage really were dead, people would not respond so powerfully to the idea that marriage matters because children need their mom and dad.  Despair is the most potent spiritual weapon the Enemy has against us.  If you despair, I respect that, but why try to get others who have hope to despair?  Do the things for which you have hope. But you may be wrong about the future.  Do not discourage others who have hope from acting on it.  My other reaction:  Our &#8220;traditional&#8221; view of marriage was one by the Church over several hundred years of argument with Pagan philosophers. What we did once, we can do again. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Ingles</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/27/marriage-is-not-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-75829</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Ingles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2012 16:07:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48562#comment-75829</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Greg Foster - &lt;blockquote&gt;the judge takes control of your entire procreative life and rearranges it for the benefit of those to whom you were formerly obligated&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Hmm. Amend that to &quot;entire procreative life &lt;i&gt;up to that point&lt;/i&gt;&quot; and you&#039;re pretty much describing divorce and custody and child support now.

And &quot;permanent &#039;procreative responsibility report&#039;&quot;? Credit reports only list bankruptcies for 7 to 10 years based on type. So &#039;permanent&#039; is a bit much for &#039;equivalence&#039;, if you&#039;re going all hypothetical.

Potential spouses tend to find out about previous relationships as it is, anyway. (Not universally, I&#039;ll grant, of course - even bigamy still happens. But then, creditors can still lend money to people who&#039;ve declared bankruptcy, if they choose.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg Foster &#8211;<br />
<blockquote>the judge takes control of your entire procreative life and rearranges it for the benefit of those to whom you were formerly obligated</p></blockquote>
<p>Hmm. Amend that to &#8220;entire procreative life <i>up to that point</i>&#8221; and you&#8217;re pretty much describing divorce and custody and child support now.</p>
<p>And &#8220;permanent &#8216;procreative responsibility report&#8217;&#8221;? Credit reports only list bankruptcies for 7 to 10 years based on type. So &#8216;permanent&#8217; is a bit much for &#8216;equivalence&#8217;, if you&#8217;re going all hypothetical.</p>
<p>Potential spouses tend to find out about previous relationships as it is, anyway. (Not universally, I&#8217;ll grant, of course &#8211; even bigamy still happens. But then, creditors can still lend money to people who&#8217;ve declared bankruptcy, if they choose.)</p>
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		<title>By: Marriage Is Not Dead</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/27/marriage-is-not-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-75815</link>
		<dc:creator>Marriage Is Not Dead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2012 13:35:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48562#comment-75815</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Continue&#8230;    0 [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Continue&#8230;    0 [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forster</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/27/marriage-is-not-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-75813</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Forster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2012 13:26:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48562#comment-75813</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great! All we need is a marriage equivalent of bankruptcy - the judge takes control of your entire procreative life and rearranges it for the benefit of those to whom you were formerly obligated, and it goes on your permanent &quot;procreative responsibility report&quot; so all future potential spouses will know you&#039;re not to be trusted - and the two would be equivalent.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great! All we need is a marriage equivalent of bankruptcy &#8211; the judge takes control of your entire procreative life and rearranges it for the benefit of those to whom you were formerly obligated, and it goes on your permanent &#8220;procreative responsibility report&#8221; so all future potential spouses will know you&#8217;re not to be trusted &#8211; and the two would be equivalent.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Ingles</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/27/marriage-is-not-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-75808</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Ingles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2012 12:24:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48562#comment-75808</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Imagine that you have a marriage that you wish to escape and $50,000 of credit-card debt that you do not wish to pay — which claim do you imagine will prove more enduring?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Bankruptcy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Imagine that you have a marriage that you wish to escape and $50,000 of credit-card debt that you do not wish to pay — which claim do you imagine will prove more enduring?</p></blockquote>
<p>Bankruptcy.</p>
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		<title>By: theresa</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/27/marriage-is-not-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-75792</link>
		<dc:creator>theresa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2012 04:56:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48562#comment-75792</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As a society we need to wake up and realize that it should not be easier to abandon vows before God and man- to love and live together, forsaking all others untill death do we part&quot;- , than it is to get out of that credit card debt.
BUt is is.
Mary Ann Kreitzer- remarked that marriages in her parish are thriving. well maybe that parish has clergy willing to preach the truth about marriage, support couples in distress, counsel those when they fall into dissolusionment as many marriages do at some point- and remind the spouse who wants to run out of their sacred vows and promises.  Sadly many of us do not have parishes that offer that support. Sadly many of us once thought we had good committed spouses and one day woke up to find our spouses had chosen selfishly to abandon the marriage, tear apart the children, destroy finances.. meanwhile either the clergy actually supported them in this evil-, under the name of &#039;being pastoral&quot;, or they looked the other way.
 Often the same clergy offer an almost guarantee of annulment as &quot;consolation.&quot;
Pray you and your 5 children do not suffer .
I never imagined I would either.
Yet here I am. and the church is ( mostly) silent.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a society we need to wake up and realize that it should not be easier to abandon vows before God and man- to love and live together, forsaking all others untill death do we part&#8221;- , than it is to get out of that credit card debt.<br />
BUt is is.<br />
Mary Ann Kreitzer- remarked that marriages in her parish are thriving. well maybe that parish has clergy willing to preach the truth about marriage, support couples in distress, counsel those when they fall into dissolusionment as many marriages do at some point- and remind the spouse who wants to run out of their sacred vows and promises.  Sadly many of us do not have parishes that offer that support. Sadly many of us once thought we had good committed spouses and one day woke up to find our spouses had chosen selfishly to abandon the marriage, tear apart the children, destroy finances.. meanwhile either the clergy actually supported them in this evil-, under the name of &#8216;being pastoral&#8221;, or they looked the other way.<br />
 Often the same clergy offer an almost guarantee of annulment as &#8220;consolation.&#8221;<br />
Pray you and your 5 children do not suffer .<br />
I never imagined I would either.<br />
Yet here I am. and the church is ( mostly) silent.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary Ann Kreitzer</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/27/marriage-is-not-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-75781</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary Ann Kreitzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2012 01:56:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48562#comment-75781</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My first thought was Mark Twain&#039;s famous quote responding to reports of his demise. &quot;The report of my death was an exaggeration. My marriage sure isn&#039;t dead and neither are those of our five children who are all happy and open to life. Marriages in my parish are thriving. To say that marriages are dead because many no longer value them is like saying Christianity is dead because so many are heretics and apostates. As long as there are people of integrity who keep there promises to God and each other, marriage will not be dead. It will be one more witness to the world that &quot;knows they are Christian because of the way they love one another.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My first thought was Mark Twain&#8217;s famous quote responding to reports of his demise. &#8220;The report of my death was an exaggeration. My marriage sure isn&#8217;t dead and neither are those of our five children who are all happy and open to life. Marriages in my parish are thriving. To say that marriages are dead because many no longer value them is like saying Christianity is dead because so many are heretics and apostates. As long as there are people of integrity who keep there promises to God and each other, marriage will not be dead. It will be one more witness to the world that &#8220;knows they are Christian because of the way they love one another.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Is Marriage Dead? Let&#8217;s Quibble Over Methodology! &#124; Hang Together</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/27/marriage-is-not-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-75777</link>
		<dc:creator>Is Marriage Dead? Let&#8217;s Quibble Over Methodology! &#124; Hang Together</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2012 00:29:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48562#comment-75777</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] replies to my reply with a challenge:  So, Greg, is it your *hope* that the signs of movement represent an interest in [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] replies to my reply with a challenge:  So, Greg, is it your *hope* that the signs of movement represent an interest in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chuck</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/09/27/marriage-is-not-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-75770</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2012 23:37:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48562#comment-75770</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Anyone who thinks they can de-liberalize divorce laws will find out what being totally crushed is like.  The support for the divorce laws as they are is not merely deep, it is in the cultural DNA.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyone who thinks they can de-liberalize divorce laws will find out what being totally crushed is like.  The support for the divorce laws as they are is not merely deep, it is in the cultural DNA.</p>
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