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	<title>Comments on: Humans Have 32 Teeth, and Other Moral Statements</title>
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		<title>By: Ray Ingles</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/10/03/humans-have-32-teeth-and-other-moral-statements/comment-page-1/#comment-76415</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Ingles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2012 14:41:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48849#comment-76415</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Michael PS - &lt;blockquote&gt;What is the meaning of “should” here?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Exactly. You can&#039;t get an &#039;ought&#039; from an &#039;is&#039;, but you can get an &#039;ought&#039; from an &#039;is&#039; &lt;i&gt;and a goal&lt;/i&gt;.

So the &#039;correct&#039; number of teeth depends rather critically on what purposes the teeth are to be put to, and in what environment.

And what of design compromises? The human female pelvis, for example, which has to cope with both walking and large-headed babies. The human throat, which allows talking but is suboptimal with respect to keeping food out of the windpipe. Should humans have little toes, which contribute almost nothing measurable to balance?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael PS &#8211;<br />
<blockquote>What is the meaning of “should” here?</p></blockquote>
<p>Exactly. You can&#8217;t get an &#8216;ought&#8217; from an &#8216;is&#8217;, but you can get an &#8216;ought&#8217; from an &#8216;is&#8217; <i>and a goal</i>.</p>
<p>So the &#8216;correct&#8217; number of teeth depends rather critically on what purposes the teeth are to be put to, and in what environment.</p>
<p>And what of design compromises? The human female pelvis, for example, which has to cope with both walking and large-headed babies. The human throat, which allows talking but is suboptimal with respect to keeping food out of the windpipe. Should humans have little toes, which contribute almost nothing measurable to balance?</p>
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		<title>By: HT</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/10/03/humans-have-32-teeth-and-other-moral-statements/comment-page-1/#comment-76403</link>
		<dc:creator>HT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2012 12:58:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48849#comment-76403</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Michael PS: re your first posting, Anscombe was not so much a *skeptic* about virtue ethics as *demanding* in what she regarded as real philosophical understanding. &quot;For this we certainly need an account of what a human action is at all [etc.]&quot;: she herself took a big step in this kind of conceptual analysis with her book &quot;Intention&quot;, which appeared about the same time as the paper &quot;Modern moral philosophy&quot;.  That work of analysis has been continued, consciously and at a similarly profound level, by Michael Thompson in his &quot;Life and Action&quot;, the first chapter of which is basically his 1995 paper &quot;The representation of life&quot;.  Work *is* being done to improve on Aristotle&#039;s understanding (philosophy can&#039;t stand still and rest on its laurels).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael PS: re your first posting, Anscombe was not so much a *skeptic* about virtue ethics as *demanding* in what she regarded as real philosophical understanding. &#8220;For this we certainly need an account of what a human action is at all [etc.]&#8220;: she herself took a big step in this kind of conceptual analysis with her book &#8220;Intention&#8221;, which appeared about the same time as the paper &#8220;Modern moral philosophy&#8221;.  That work of analysis has been continued, consciously and at a similarly profound level, by Michael Thompson in his &#8220;Life and Action&#8221;, the first chapter of which is basically his 1995 paper &#8220;The representation of life&#8221;.  Work *is* being done to improve on Aristotle&#8217;s understanding (philosophy can&#8217;t stand still and rest on its laurels).</p>
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		<title>By: Michael PS</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/10/03/humans-have-32-teeth-and-other-moral-statements/comment-page-1/#comment-76386</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael PS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2012 08:09:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48849#comment-76386</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;My wisdom teeth were removed precisely because they were crowding the other teeth in my jaw.&quot;

That merely moves the question one stage back - &quot;Should the human jaw be able to accommodate 32 teeth?&quot;

What is the meaning of &quot;should&quot; here?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;My wisdom teeth were removed precisely because they were crowding the other teeth in my jaw.&#8221;</p>
<p>That merely moves the question one stage back &#8211; &#8220;Should the human jaw be able to accommodate 32 teeth?&#8221;</p>
<p>What is the meaning of &#8220;should&#8221; here?</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Ingles</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/10/03/humans-have-32-teeth-and-other-moral-statements/comment-page-1/#comment-76320</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Ingles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2012 18:47:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48849#comment-76320</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Michael PS - Actually, both Nickp and I have been making the point that at least very many humans &lt;i&gt;shouldn&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; have 32 teeth, or they will have problems.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael PS &#8211; Actually, both Nickp and I have been making the point that at least very many humans <i>shouldn&#8217;t</i> have 32 teeth, or they will have problems.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael PS</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/10/03/humans-have-32-teeth-and-other-moral-statements/comment-page-1/#comment-76297</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael PS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2012 15:31:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48849#comment-76297</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The terms “should” or “ought” or “needs” relate to good and bad: e.g. machinery needs oil, or should or ought to be oiled, in that running without oil is bad for it, or it runs badly without oil.  

In the example given, could we say &quot;humans ought to have 32 teeth&quot;?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The terms “should” or “ought” or “needs” relate to good and bad: e.g. machinery needs oil, or should or ought to be oiled, in that running without oil is bad for it, or it runs badly without oil.  </p>
<p>In the example given, could we say &#8220;humans ought to have 32 teeth&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Nickp</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/10/03/humans-have-32-teeth-and-other-moral-statements/comment-page-1/#comment-76288</link>
		<dc:creator>Nickp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2012 13:35:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48849#comment-76288</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;&quot;If a mutation arose that caused some humans to develop 28 teeth, it seems unlikely that anyone would decide that such people weren’t human. &quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Ray,
There&#039;s no need to hypothesize.  My wife (like about 30% of the population) naturally has 28 permanent teeth.  It&#039;s not clear to me whether she &lt;i&gt;is meant to&lt;/i&gt; have 32, according to Food/Skidelsky.  We&#039;re currently waiting to see if our kids will (should?) have 28 or 32 teeth.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;If a mutation arose that caused some humans to develop 28 teeth, it seems unlikely that anyone would decide that such people weren’t human. &#8220;</i></p>
<p>Ray,<br />
There&#8217;s no need to hypothesize.  My wife (like about 30% of the population) naturally has 28 permanent teeth.  It&#8217;s not clear to me whether she <i>is meant to</i> have 32, according to Food/Skidelsky.  We&#8217;re currently waiting to see if our kids will (should?) have 28 or 32 teeth.</p>
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		<title>By: Nickp</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/10/03/humans-have-32-teeth-and-other-moral-statements/comment-page-1/#comment-76287</link>
		<dc:creator>Nickp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2012 13:22:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48849#comment-76287</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Replace Skidelsky with Foot as necessary in my argument above.  It&#039;s not clear to me what sentences are quotes from Foot or statements by Skidelsky elaborating on Foot&#039;s ideas.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Replace Skidelsky with Foot as necessary in my argument above.  It&#8217;s not clear to me what sentences are quotes from Foot or statements by Skidelsky elaborating on Foot&#8217;s ideas.</p>
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		<title>By: Nickp</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/10/03/humans-have-32-teeth-and-other-moral-statements/comment-page-1/#comment-76286</link>
		<dc:creator>Nickp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2012 13:11:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48849#comment-76286</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d have thought that &quot;humans have 32 teeth&quot; is shorthand for something like &quot;in the absence of trauma, growth of 32 permanent teeth is the most frequent phenotype among Homo sapiens sapiens.&quot;  

 “If everything goes well for them they should have 32 teeth”  seems rather different.  That &quot;should&quot; is doing a lot of work.  Replacing it with &quot;probably will&quot; wouldn&#039;t alter the descriptive accuracy but would make it look less like a normative statement.

Similarly, &quot;Humans are meant to have 32 teeth&quot;  seems a bit fishy.  That &quot;are meant to&quot; smuggles in the concept of intent (&quot;are meant to&quot; by whom?) and seems to assume you can get ought from is, rather than demonstrating it.   Given the frequency with which wisdom teeth cause problems, one could, I think, argue coherently that humans &lt;i&gt;ought&lt;/i&gt; to have 28 teeth, but don&#039;t.

Humans have 32 teeth is a statement regarding frequency of a phenotype.  It&#039;s an ordinary descriptive statement, not a normative one, unless you insert an unnecessary &quot;ought&quot; as Skidelsky did.  It seems quite different from &quot;humans ought not induce vomiting to eat more,&quot; and I doubt that the morality of the latter statement is derived primarily from a description of the biological function of eating.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d have thought that &#8220;humans have 32 teeth&#8221; is shorthand for something like &#8220;in the absence of trauma, growth of 32 permanent teeth is the most frequent phenotype among Homo sapiens sapiens.&#8221;  </p>
<p> “If everything goes well for them they should have 32 teeth”  seems rather different.  That &#8220;should&#8221; is doing a lot of work.  Replacing it with &#8220;probably will&#8221; wouldn&#8217;t alter the descriptive accuracy but would make it look less like a normative statement.</p>
<p>Similarly, &#8220;Humans are meant to have 32 teeth&#8221;  seems a bit fishy.  That &#8220;are meant to&#8221; smuggles in the concept of intent (&#8220;are meant to&#8221; by whom?) and seems to assume you can get ought from is, rather than demonstrating it.   Given the frequency with which wisdom teeth cause problems, one could, I think, argue coherently that humans <i>ought</i> to have 28 teeth, but don&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Humans have 32 teeth is a statement regarding frequency of a phenotype.  It&#8217;s an ordinary descriptive statement, not a normative one, unless you insert an unnecessary &#8220;ought&#8221; as Skidelsky did.  It seems quite different from &#8220;humans ought not induce vomiting to eat more,&#8221; and I doubt that the morality of the latter statement is derived primarily from a description of the biological function of eating.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Ingles</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/10/03/humans-have-32-teeth-and-other-moral-statements/comment-page-1/#comment-76279</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Ingles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2012 12:16:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48849#comment-76279</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;You’re perverting the natural function of eating, which is to nourish yourself.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Wouldn&#039;t smoking be a &#039;sin&#039;, or at least a &#039;perversion&#039;, in some sense, then? I mean, you&#039;re perverting the natural function of breathing, which is to take in oxygen and expel carbon dioxide.

What about drinking alcohol? Where&#039;s the nourishment there? More to the point, wouldn&#039;t artificial sweeteners likewise have to be perverted?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>You’re perverting the natural function of eating, which is to nourish yourself.</p></blockquote>
<p>Wouldn&#8217;t smoking be a &#8216;sin&#8217;, or at least a &#8216;perversion&#8217;, in some sense, then? I mean, you&#8217;re perverting the natural function of breathing, which is to take in oxygen and expel carbon dioxide.</p>
<p>What about drinking alcohol? Where&#8217;s the nourishment there? More to the point, wouldn&#8217;t artificial sweeteners likewise have to be perverted?</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Ingles</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/10/03/humans-have-32-teeth-and-other-moral-statements/comment-page-1/#comment-76278</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Ingles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2012 12:11:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=48849#comment-76278</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What if &#039;humans have 32 teeth&#039; isn&#039;t normative, but characteristic instead? I mean, &lt;i&gt;I&lt;/i&gt; don&#039;t have 32 teeth - and if I did, it would not represent things &#039;going well&#039; for me. My wisdom teeth were removed precisely because they were crowding the other teeth in my jaw.

Epidemiologists have the notion of the &#039;wild type&#039; of a virus. Real viruses have lots of alleles, variations of the genes. Gene 1 has variants a, b, and c; gene 2 has variants x, y, and z, etc. The &#039;wild type&#039; is the set of most common variants, say &#039;1a2y3p...&#039;.

Here&#039;s the thing - there may not be an &lt;i&gt;actual&lt;/i&gt; virus that has that particular genome. The &#039;wild type&#039; is kind of the &#039;center of gravity&#039; of a multidimensional &#039;cloud&#039; of viral variants.

If a mutation arose that caused some humans to develop 28 teeth, it seems unlikely that anyone would decide that such people weren&#039;t human. If the gene spread and eventually all humans had 28 teeth, I likewise doubt we would say humanity had been replaced by a &#039;post-human&#039; race.

Humanity has a &#039;center of gravity&#039;, too - a &#039;wild type&#039;. (Actually, it has &lt;i&gt;two&lt;/i&gt; &#039;lobes&#039; of the cloud with separate &#039;centers of gravity&#039; - male and female.) The boundaries of that cloud are fuzzy. Travel far enough in one direction and you&#039;ll find the common ancestor of humans and Neandertals... but you&#039;ll be hard pressed to pick out an unambiguous line you crossed between them.

So saying &#039;humans have 32 teeth&#039; doesn&#039;t seem to have quite the normative force in practice that Foot supposes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What if &#8216;humans have 32 teeth&#8217; isn&#8217;t normative, but characteristic instead? I mean, <i>I</i> don&#8217;t have 32 teeth &#8211; and if I did, it would not represent things &#8216;going well&#8217; for me. My wisdom teeth were removed precisely because they were crowding the other teeth in my jaw.</p>
<p>Epidemiologists have the notion of the &#8216;wild type&#8217; of a virus. Real viruses have lots of alleles, variations of the genes. Gene 1 has variants a, b, and c; gene 2 has variants x, y, and z, etc. The &#8216;wild type&#8217; is the set of most common variants, say &#8217;1a2y3p&#8230;&#8217;.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the thing &#8211; there may not be an <i>actual</i> virus that has that particular genome. The &#8216;wild type&#8217; is kind of the &#8216;center of gravity&#8217; of a multidimensional &#8216;cloud&#8217; of viral variants.</p>
<p>If a mutation arose that caused some humans to develop 28 teeth, it seems unlikely that anyone would decide that such people weren&#8217;t human. If the gene spread and eventually all humans had 28 teeth, I likewise doubt we would say humanity had been replaced by a &#8216;post-human&#8217; race.</p>
<p>Humanity has a &#8216;center of gravity&#8217;, too &#8211; a &#8216;wild type&#8217;. (Actually, it has <i>two</i> &#8216;lobes&#8217; of the cloud with separate &#8216;centers of gravity&#8217; &#8211; male and female.) The boundaries of that cloud are fuzzy. Travel far enough in one direction and you&#8217;ll find the common ancestor of humans and Neandertals&#8230; but you&#8217;ll be hard pressed to pick out an unambiguous line you crossed between them.</p>
<p>So saying &#8216;humans have 32 teeth&#8217; doesn&#8217;t seem to have quite the normative force in practice that Foot supposes.</p>
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