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	<title>Comments on: The Sad Decline of the New Yorker</title>
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		<title>By: N.D.</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/10/13/the-sad-decline-of-the-new-yorker/comment-page-1/#comment-77710</link>
		<dc:creator>N.D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2012 21:49:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=49255#comment-77710</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David Nickol, there is no such being as a thing that is human, just as there is no such being as a place that is human. Since it is true that from the moment of conception, nothing is added to or subtracted from the DNA of that new human being that is created and thus brought into being, every human being, from the moment of conception, being wholly human, and not being a thing or a place, can only be a person.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Nickol, there is no such being as a thing that is human, just as there is no such being as a place that is human. Since it is true that from the moment of conception, nothing is added to or subtracted from the DNA of that new human being that is created and thus brought into being, every human being, from the moment of conception, being wholly human, and not being a thing or a place, can only be a person.</p>
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		<title>By: dotCommonweal &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Maximum Ambiguity</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/10/13/the-sad-decline-of-the-new-yorker/comment-page-1/#comment-77672</link>
		<dc:creator>dotCommonweal &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Maximum Ambiguity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2012 00:03:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=49255#comment-77672</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] as in presidential campaigns, two weeks is an eternity), but I&#8217;d like to add something to the very good (though weirdly framed) response by Matthew J. Frank and the even better one by Ross Douthat to this infuriatingly stupid post by a [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] as in presidential campaigns, two weeks is an eternity), but I&#8217;d like to add something to the very good (though weirdly framed) response by Matthew J. Frank and the even better one by Ross Douthat to this infuriatingly stupid post by a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey S.</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/10/13/the-sad-decline-of-the-new-yorker/comment-page-1/#comment-77000</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2012 02:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=49255#comment-77000</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Pastor,

I couldn&#039;t agree more (I always wanted to win the cartoon caption contest, which I suppose I can still enter online).

In the meantime, folks here might also enjoy our blog&#039;s take on the same pathetic post:

http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2012/10/the_sillyclevers_on_the_subjec.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pastor,</p>
<p>I couldn&#8217;t agree more (I always wanted to win the cartoon caption contest, which I suppose I can still enter online).</p>
<p>In the meantime, folks here might also enjoy our blog&#8217;s take on the same pathetic post:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2012/10/the_sillyclevers_on_the_subjec.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2012/10/the_sillyclevers_on_the_subjec.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Pastor Spomer</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/10/13/the-sad-decline-of-the-new-yorker/comment-page-1/#comment-76984</link>
		<dc:creator>Pastor Spomer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 21:41:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=49255#comment-76984</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I let my subscription expire a few years ago when Updike died. The only thing I miss are the cartoons.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I let my subscription expire a few years ago when Updike died. The only thing I miss are the cartoons.</p>
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		<title>By: John Hinshaw</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/10/13/the-sad-decline-of-the-new-yorker/comment-page-1/#comment-76975</link>
		<dc:creator>John Hinshaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 19:53:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=49255#comment-76975</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So now that embryonic stem cell research has proven an abject failure to provide even the barest of relief (and no cures) to serious medical problems, how do we gain back the lives lost.  To use the logic advanced earlier in the discussion: the &quot;potential&quot; for prolonging life was weighed more important than scientifically verifiable lives destroyed.  But, I guess if we spend our lives refusing to address the destruction unborn life we just move along, singing.  Culture of Death triumphant (except...except...).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So now that embryonic stem cell research has proven an abject failure to provide even the barest of relief (and no cures) to serious medical problems, how do we gain back the lives lost.  To use the logic advanced earlier in the discussion: the &#8220;potential&#8221; for prolonging life was weighed more important than scientifically verifiable lives destroyed.  But, I guess if we spend our lives refusing to address the destruction unborn life we just move along, singing.  Culture of Death triumphant (except&#8230;except&#8230;).</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/10/13/the-sad-decline-of-the-new-yorker/comment-page-1/#comment-76965</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 18:02:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=49255#comment-76965</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;If there is any question we must err on the side of life.&lt;/i&gt;

Michael Currie,

Suppose a woman is in danger of death if she continues her pregnancy (as in the famous Phoenix abortion case). One may be unsure whether the embryo or fetus counts as a person, but one can be virtually certain the &lt;i&gt;pregnant mother&lt;/i&gt; is a person. How can there be an argument against saving the one you &lt;i&gt;know&lt;/i&gt; is a person? Isn&#039;t that preferable to &quot;erring on the side of life&quot; and letting the mother die along with the unborn child?

In your backyard scenario, note that there is absolutely nothing at stake if you &quot;err on the side of life.&quot; There is absolutely no reason not to refrain from shooting until you are certain no one is in danger. But if you &quot;err on the side of life,&quot; say by not conducting embryonic stem cell research, you may be losing the chance to cure something like Parkinson&#039;s disease. 

Also, for some people who may not believe that personhood begins at conception, the question is where to draw the line. In that case, it is easy to err on the side of life by drawing the line well to the early side of pregnancy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>If there is any question we must err on the side of life.</i></p>
<p>Michael Currie,</p>
<p>Suppose a woman is in danger of death if she continues her pregnancy (as in the famous Phoenix abortion case). One may be unsure whether the embryo or fetus counts as a person, but one can be virtually certain the <i>pregnant mother</i> is a person. How can there be an argument against saving the one you <i>know</i> is a person? Isn&#8217;t that preferable to &#8220;erring on the side of life&#8221; and letting the mother die along with the unborn child?</p>
<p>In your backyard scenario, note that there is absolutely nothing at stake if you &#8220;err on the side of life.&#8221; There is absolutely no reason not to refrain from shooting until you are certain no one is in danger. But if you &#8220;err on the side of life,&#8221; say by not conducting embryonic stem cell research, you may be losing the chance to cure something like Parkinson&#8217;s disease. </p>
<p>Also, for some people who may not believe that personhood begins at conception, the question is where to draw the line. In that case, it is easy to err on the side of life by drawing the line well to the early side of pregnancy.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Z</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/10/13/the-sad-decline-of-the-new-yorker/comment-page-1/#comment-76962</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 17:46:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=49255#comment-76962</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;No one has ever denied that a human zygote, embryo, or fetus was human. The argument is over whether it is a human. A human heart is human, but it is not a human. It is the leap from human to a human that has been the point of contention.&lt;/i&gt;

@David Nickol, that&#039;s not correct, especially in light of your appeal to the history of this question. The thoughts of Aquinas on this matter, for example (a favorite reference of Nancy Pelosi), most certainly relate to whether the embryo/fetus was human - whether it was actually just a being with a more limited kind of form. At the least your statement is too broad. It was indeed unclear, in the medieval period and earlier, what sort of a being this thing was: is it a more primitive kind of organism that then becomes human later on? How can a rational form be informing a body that doesn&#039;t have the right kind of organization for it? Must there not be a succession of forms to go with the succession of the kind of material organization? The relevance of more modern embryology is that there&#039;s no question that this is a human thing (to leave it maximally vague) - distinctively human structure is there from the get-go.  

But you are also conflating two issues when you link the personhood/consciousness idea to your version of the history: the contemporary appeal to personhood (defined in terms of consciousness or something like that) is not at all the same as the question of whether the embryo/fetus is a human individual in its own right. If you look at the classic pro-abortion articles that take that line (Michael Tooley, Mary Anne Warren, for example) they have nothing to do with whether the fetus/embryo/unborn child is an individual human. They presume (correctly) that it is an individual of the human species, and they then simply argue that that isn&#039;t sufficient: it has to meet this functional bar to qualify as a person.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>No one has ever denied that a human zygote, embryo, or fetus was human. The argument is over whether it is a human. A human heart is human, but it is not a human. It is the leap from human to a human that has been the point of contention.</i></p>
<p>@David Nickol, that&#8217;s not correct, especially in light of your appeal to the history of this question. The thoughts of Aquinas on this matter, for example (a favorite reference of Nancy Pelosi), most certainly relate to whether the embryo/fetus was human &#8211; whether it was actually just a being with a more limited kind of form. At the least your statement is too broad. It was indeed unclear, in the medieval period and earlier, what sort of a being this thing was: is it a more primitive kind of organism that then becomes human later on? How can a rational form be informing a body that doesn&#8217;t have the right kind of organization for it? Must there not be a succession of forms to go with the succession of the kind of material organization? The relevance of more modern embryology is that there&#8217;s no question that this is a human thing (to leave it maximally vague) &#8211; distinctively human structure is there from the get-go.  </p>
<p>But you are also conflating two issues when you link the personhood/consciousness idea to your version of the history: the contemporary appeal to personhood (defined in terms of consciousness or something like that) is not at all the same as the question of whether the embryo/fetus is a human individual in its own right. If you look at the classic pro-abortion articles that take that line (Michael Tooley, Mary Anne Warren, for example) they have nothing to do with whether the fetus/embryo/unborn child is an individual human. They presume (correctly) that it is an individual of the human species, and they then simply argue that that isn&#8217;t sufficient: it has to meet this functional bar to qualify as a person.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Currie</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/10/13/the-sad-decline-of-the-new-yorker/comment-page-1/#comment-76958</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Currie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 16:54:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=49255#comment-76958</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is not what the zygote etc. is that is the problem, it is what it will become, a baby. So in a rather ironic way abortion is a projection, only from the future to the present.
         To those who would say that we don&#039;t or can&#039;t know where the threshold is for life worthy of defense there is an old philosophical standard,it has a name that I can&#039;t remember, that makes sense to me. I&#039;m in my backyard shooting arrows at a cardboard target with a friend, just as I am set to release an arrow my friend says, &quot;hey I think I just saw someone run behind the target&quot;. I say, &quot;are you sure&quot;. He says &quot;no I&#039;m not, maybe we should check just to make sure&quot;. I say &quot; ah, there&#039;s probably no one there&quot; and I let fly the arrow.
         If there is any question we must err on the side of life.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is not what the zygote etc. is that is the problem, it is what it will become, a baby. So in a rather ironic way abortion is a projection, only from the future to the present.<br />
         To those who would say that we don&#8217;t or can&#8217;t know where the threshold is for life worthy of defense there is an old philosophical standard,it has a name that I can&#8217;t remember, that makes sense to me. I&#8217;m in my backyard shooting arrows at a cardboard target with a friend, just as I am set to release an arrow my friend says, &#8220;hey I think I just saw someone run behind the target&#8221;. I say, &#8220;are you sure&#8221;. He says &#8220;no I&#8217;m not, maybe we should check just to make sure&#8221;. I say &#8221; ah, there&#8217;s probably no one there&#8221; and I let fly the arrow.<br />
         If there is any question we must err on the side of life.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Payne</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/10/13/the-sad-decline-of-the-new-yorker/comment-page-1/#comment-76949</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 16:05:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=49255#comment-76949</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear David Nickol:  Thank you for your measured response.  I think you have expressed your position well, and I have expressed my position at least to my satisfaction, so I&#039;ll let it go at that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear David Nickol:  Thank you for your measured response.  I think you have expressed your position well, and I have expressed my position at least to my satisfaction, so I&#8217;ll let it go at that.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/10/13/the-sad-decline-of-the-new-yorker/comment-page-1/#comment-76936</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 12:08:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=49255#comment-76936</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Your true identity is at last revealed. Don’t you have a magazine to edit?&quot;

What exactly is the point of this comment?  Is there some reason a writer feels compelled to mock a commenter?  Why not respond to hte substance of the comment?  Has blogging just become a place to vent?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Your true identity is at last revealed. Don’t you have a magazine to edit?&#8221;</p>
<p>What exactly is the point of this comment?  Is there some reason a writer feels compelled to mock a commenter?  Why not respond to hte substance of the comment?  Has blogging just become a place to vent?</p>
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