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	<title>Comments on: Our Lecompton Moment</title>
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		<title>By: More election reactions &#124; Maryland for All Families</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/13/our-lecompton-moment/comment-page-1/#comment-80301</link>
		<dc:creator>More election reactions &#124; Maryland for All Families</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2012 14:29:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=50836#comment-80301</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Theocon crowd at First Things mag fears the Wall Street Journal is slipping away from them on this issue, and they&#8217;re having a fit about it. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Theocon crowd at First Things mag fears the Wall Street Journal is slipping away from them on this issue, and they&#8217;re having a fit about it. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John Howard</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/13/our-lecompton-moment/comment-page-1/#comment-79767</link>
		<dc:creator>John Howard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2012 15:28:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=50836#comment-79767</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d like to know what the author thinks of my suggestion, please. Does he agree that same-sex procreation should be prohibited or does he think we should let labs attempt to make offspring for same-sex couples? Does he agree that marriage should protect and affirm the couple&#039;s right to conceive offspring together? And does he agree that Civil Unions that are defined &quot;marriage minus conception rights&quot; would be constitutional and not mirror marriage and would affirm the unique meaning of marriage? There is so much to chew on here, I can&#039;t fathom why he&#039;s afraid to tackle the subject.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like to know what the author thinks of my suggestion, please. Does he agree that same-sex procreation should be prohibited or does he think we should let labs attempt to make offspring for same-sex couples? Does he agree that marriage should protect and affirm the couple&#8217;s right to conceive offspring together? And does he agree that Civil Unions that are defined &#8220;marriage minus conception rights&#8221; would be constitutional and not mirror marriage and would affirm the unique meaning of marriage? There is so much to chew on here, I can&#8217;t fathom why he&#8217;s afraid to tackle the subject.</p>
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		<title>By: John Howard</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/13/our-lecompton-moment/comment-page-1/#comment-79406</link>
		<dc:creator>John Howard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 20:03:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=50836#comment-79406</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t think it&#039;s all that much better if a husband is there to adopt the sperm donor&#039;s child, I think we should prohibit gamete donation altogether. It would be politically hard to do, because so many people know someone who availed themselves of it to have their wonderful bundle of joy, and we don&#039;t like to call our friends horrible people. I&#039;m sure a similar thing happened at the end of slavery, where people knew slave owners and didn&#039;t think they were bad people, so saying slavery was wrong was an insult to their friends. But slowly things changed. Your suggestion might be part of the incremental change going forward.

That said, my proposal doesn&#039;t touch on the subject of donor conception. Nothing that is currently done to have children is affected by my proposal, only things that haven&#039;t been done yet, like cloning and genetic engineering and attempting same-sex and transgender procreation using stem cells. It is consistent with ending gamete donation someday in the future in that it affirms that marriage is the right to conceive people, but it doesn&#039;t actually prohibit unmarried people from doing it anyway.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s all that much better if a husband is there to adopt the sperm donor&#8217;s child, I think we should prohibit gamete donation altogether. It would be politically hard to do, because so many people know someone who availed themselves of it to have their wonderful bundle of joy, and we don&#8217;t like to call our friends horrible people. I&#8217;m sure a similar thing happened at the end of slavery, where people knew slave owners and didn&#8217;t think they were bad people, so saying slavery was wrong was an insult to their friends. But slowly things changed. Your suggestion might be part of the incremental change going forward.</p>
<p>That said, my proposal doesn&#8217;t touch on the subject of donor conception. Nothing that is currently done to have children is affected by my proposal, only things that haven&#8217;t been done yet, like cloning and genetic engineering and attempting same-sex and transgender procreation using stem cells. It is consistent with ending gamete donation someday in the future in that it affirms that marriage is the right to conceive people, but it doesn&#8217;t actually prohibit unmarried people from doing it anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/13/our-lecompton-moment/comment-page-1/#comment-79388</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 18:28:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=50836#comment-79388</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@John Howard

In a related matter a commenter by the name of &quot;Hardcastle&quot; posted the following over at NRO.  I haven&#039;t given it much thought, but at first glance, I like it:

&lt;i&gt;The discussion here has touched on artificial insemination several times, and I do have a suggestion to improve our public policy concerning it. My suggestion would not resolve all the problems associated with artificial insemination, but I believe it would rectify a lot of them and produce a net good.

I believe that all sperm donors should be held financially responsible for their children unless and until an adoptive father, married to the mother, is ready and willing to replace him. Mothers should not be allowed to bargain away their children&#039;s rights to the biological father&#039;s support. Sperm banks, naturally, would have no power to affect such rights and would be required to reveal the father&#039;s identity upon the child&#039;s request. A sperm donor would thus be placed on notice that even if the mother wants nothing from him, a time bomb in the form of his child is standing by.

The result would be that sperm donations would cease, other than in situations where a replacement father stood ready to adopt. And that situation would ordinarily arise only when a woman can conceive, but her husband is infertile. One consequence of this policy would be that It would become far less likely that sperm donors would produce hundreds of offspring, with siblings who don&#039;t even know they are related living in the same communities.


Although I have reservations about sperm donation even pursuant to my policy, I can&#039;t see how, as a practical matter, to stop it altogether. And I think my suggestion is entirely fair to the sperm donors -- no less than we expect from others who father children. Our legal system stands ready to ruin divorced fathers, even in situations where the mother has unilaterally broken up the marriage. Why do we let sperm donors off the hook?&lt;/i&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@John Howard</p>
<p>In a related matter a commenter by the name of &#8220;Hardcastle&#8221; posted the following over at NRO.  I haven&#8217;t given it much thought, but at first glance, I like it:</p>
<p><i>The discussion here has touched on artificial insemination several times, and I do have a suggestion to improve our public policy concerning it. My suggestion would not resolve all the problems associated with artificial insemination, but I believe it would rectify a lot of them and produce a net good.</p>
<p>I believe that all sperm donors should be held financially responsible for their children unless and until an adoptive father, married to the mother, is ready and willing to replace him. Mothers should not be allowed to bargain away their children&#8217;s rights to the biological father&#8217;s support. Sperm banks, naturally, would have no power to affect such rights and would be required to reveal the father&#8217;s identity upon the child&#8217;s request. A sperm donor would thus be placed on notice that even if the mother wants nothing from him, a time bomb in the form of his child is standing by.</p>
<p>The result would be that sperm donations would cease, other than in situations where a replacement father stood ready to adopt. And that situation would ordinarily arise only when a woman can conceive, but her husband is infertile. One consequence of this policy would be that It would become far less likely that sperm donors would produce hundreds of offspring, with siblings who don&#8217;t even know they are related living in the same communities.</p>
<p>Although I have reservations about sperm donation even pursuant to my policy, I can&#8217;t see how, as a practical matter, to stop it altogether. And I think my suggestion is entirely fair to the sperm donors &#8212; no less than we expect from others who father children. Our legal system stands ready to ruin divorced fathers, even in situations where the mother has unilaterally broken up the marriage. Why do we let sperm donors off the hook?</i></p>
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		<title>By: John Howard</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/13/our-lecompton-moment/comment-page-1/#comment-79377</link>
		<dc:creator>John Howard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 17:40:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=50836#comment-79377</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Excellent points about how same-sex marriage is a moral offense against human dignity, but it needs to be more clear why this is so. Same-sex marriage means taking a materialistic view of human beings as property, designed and sold by labs rather than created naturally and equally through sexual reproduction.

We need people to be aware that marriage means allowing the couple to conceive offspring together and that the ultimate demand by same-sex marriage activists is to be allowed to create children with someone of the other sex (and by transgender activists, to be allowed to reproduce as their chosen sex). People aren&#039;t aware that labs are working on ways to coax stem cells into viable sperm for a woman or eggs for a man, and if they are aware, they often seem to think we have to let people do it if they want to. It is the same attitude of Douglas, that if someone wants to own slaves, we have to let them, or if a state says it is OK, or the people say it is OK, then it&#039;s OK. But it isn&#039;t OK and it isn&#039;t inevitable, we need to explain to people why it is unethical and wrong and would be terrible public policy to allow.

Please let me know what you think of my proposal to resolve the marriage debate with what I call The Egg and Sperm Civil Union Compromise. It preserves marriage as a man and a woman through a combination of three laws that prohibit genetic engineering (the Egg and Sperm law), affirm marriage&#039;s conception rights, and federally recognizes state Civil Unions as long as they are defined as &quot;marriage minus conception rights&quot; so they are not equivalent to marriage and affirm the unique right of marriage to conceive offspring together.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent points about how same-sex marriage is a moral offense against human dignity, but it needs to be more clear why this is so. Same-sex marriage means taking a materialistic view of human beings as property, designed and sold by labs rather than created naturally and equally through sexual reproduction.</p>
<p>We need people to be aware that marriage means allowing the couple to conceive offspring together and that the ultimate demand by same-sex marriage activists is to be allowed to create children with someone of the other sex (and by transgender activists, to be allowed to reproduce as their chosen sex). People aren&#8217;t aware that labs are working on ways to coax stem cells into viable sperm for a woman or eggs for a man, and if they are aware, they often seem to think we have to let people do it if they want to. It is the same attitude of Douglas, that if someone wants to own slaves, we have to let them, or if a state says it is OK, or the people say it is OK, then it&#8217;s OK. But it isn&#8217;t OK and it isn&#8217;t inevitable, we need to explain to people why it is unethical and wrong and would be terrible public policy to allow.</p>
<p>Please let me know what you think of my proposal to resolve the marriage debate with what I call The Egg and Sperm Civil Union Compromise. It preserves marriage as a man and a woman through a combination of three laws that prohibit genetic engineering (the Egg and Sperm law), affirm marriage&#8217;s conception rights, and federally recognizes state Civil Unions as long as they are defined as &#8220;marriage minus conception rights&#8221; so they are not equivalent to marriage and affirm the unique right of marriage to conceive offspring together.</p>
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		<title>By: Boonton</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/13/our-lecompton-moment/comment-page-1/#comment-79245</link>
		<dc:creator>Boonton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 02:30:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=50836#comment-79245</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Lecompton comparision seems especially strained given that the anti-SSM side has made a lot of hey out of &#039;the will of the people&#039; as expressed in anti-SSM ballots as opposed to &#039;elitist judges&#039; or &#039;out of touch legislators&#039;.  Now that SSM has started winning not only elections but direct ballots we discover it&#039;s all just a &#039;procedure&#039;..

So how does this actually compare to slavery and Kansas?  Unlike Lecompton, I haven&#039;t heard anyone argue that the ballots won on electorial faud.  I suppose you have a point that someone who makes an anti-SSM based on a case against judicial activism would have little to oppose by SSM becoming legal through totally non-judicial means.  

But I think the comparision is more self-serving than anything else.  Anything to pretend you&#039;re Lincoln fighting slavery or Churchill fighting Hitler.  Where this doesn&#039;t work so well is that anti-SSM were all too happy to embrace the &#039;proceduralists&#039; when they were arguing against SSM via attacking judicial activism and arguing in favor of allowing ballots banning SSM to stand.  This is a bit like arguing in favor of settling arguments by sword fighting, until one realizes that the other side has acquired some better swordsmen and now it&#039;s suddenly barbaric to use sword fighting to settle such arguments!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Lecompton comparision seems especially strained given that the anti-SSM side has made a lot of hey out of &#8216;the will of the people&#8217; as expressed in anti-SSM ballots as opposed to &#8216;elitist judges&#8217; or &#8216;out of touch legislators&#8217;.  Now that SSM has started winning not only elections but direct ballots we discover it&#8217;s all just a &#8216;procedure&#8217;..</p>
<p>So how does this actually compare to slavery and Kansas?  Unlike Lecompton, I haven&#8217;t heard anyone argue that the ballots won on electorial faud.  I suppose you have a point that someone who makes an anti-SSM based on a case against judicial activism would have little to oppose by SSM becoming legal through totally non-judicial means.  </p>
<p>But I think the comparision is more self-serving than anything else.  Anything to pretend you&#8217;re Lincoln fighting slavery or Churchill fighting Hitler.  Where this doesn&#8217;t work so well is that anti-SSM were all too happy to embrace the &#8216;proceduralists&#8217; when they were arguing against SSM via attacking judicial activism and arguing in favor of allowing ballots banning SSM to stand.  This is a bit like arguing in favor of settling arguments by sword fighting, until one realizes that the other side has acquired some better swordsmen and now it&#8217;s suddenly barbaric to use sword fighting to settle such arguments!</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/13/our-lecompton-moment/comment-page-1/#comment-79230</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2012 22:04:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=50836#comment-79230</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So well put, although you kind of ruined my day with the Bret Stephens quote.

It is astounding how many--even on the Right--are indifferent to having our government redefine the very natural rights it was created to protect.  Does a computer get to redefine the value of the man who programmed it?

As Tocqueville&#039;s contemporary Fr. Francis Grund once wrote, you need only change the morals and habits of the American people and you could change their government utterly without altering a single word of their constitution.

I was introduced to my favorite defender of marriage, Douglas Farrow, through an &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=23-01-028-f&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;article he wrote for Touchstone magazine&lt;/a&gt;.  Farrow understands in no uncertain terms why this debate strikes at the heart of our freedom.  It is so discouraging to see the Wall Street Journal treat writers like you and Farrow as if they are the troglodytes of the movie Mississippi Burning.

Farrow&#039;s Touchstone article was somewhat heavy reading.  A friend of mine read it but said he couldn&#039;t quite sum up what Farrow was saying, although he liked the article a great deal.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://crisisofthehousedivided.blogspot.com/2010/08/audacity-of-state-by-douglas-farrow.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The following is my attempt to draw a picture summing up that article.&lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So well put, although you kind of ruined my day with the Bret Stephens quote.</p>
<p>It is astounding how many&#8211;even on the Right&#8211;are indifferent to having our government redefine the very natural rights it was created to protect.  Does a computer get to redefine the value of the man who programmed it?</p>
<p>As Tocqueville&#8217;s contemporary Fr. Francis Grund once wrote, you need only change the morals and habits of the American people and you could change their government utterly without altering a single word of their constitution.</p>
<p>I was introduced to my favorite defender of marriage, Douglas Farrow, through an <a href="http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=23-01-028-f" rel="nofollow">article he wrote for Touchstone magazine</a>.  Farrow understands in no uncertain terms why this debate strikes at the heart of our freedom.  It is so discouraging to see the Wall Street Journal treat writers like you and Farrow as if they are the troglodytes of the movie Mississippi Burning.</p>
<p>Farrow&#8217;s Touchstone article was somewhat heavy reading.  A friend of mine read it but said he couldn&#8217;t quite sum up what Farrow was saying, although he liked the article a great deal.  <a href="http://crisisofthehousedivided.blogspot.com/2010/08/audacity-of-state-by-douglas-farrow.html" rel="nofollow">The following is my attempt to draw a picture summing up that article.</a></p>
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		<title>By: TUESDAY AFTERNOON GOD &#38; CAESAR EDITION &#124; Big Pulpit</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/13/our-lecompton-moment/comment-page-1/#comment-79220</link>
		<dc:creator>TUESDAY AFTERNOON GOD &#38; CAESAR EDITION &#124; Big Pulpit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2012 19:56:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=50836#comment-79220</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Our Lecompton Moment &#8211; Matthew Schmitz, First Thoughts                         Can&#039;t Find What You&#039;re Looking For? [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Our Lecompton Moment &#8211; Matthew Schmitz, First Thoughts                         Can&#039;t Find What You&#039;re Looking For? [...]</p>
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