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	<title>Comments on: George Weigel: Catholic Church Must Consider Getting out of Civil Marriage Business</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/15/george-weigel-catholic-church-must-consider-getting-out-of-civil-marriage-business/</link>
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		<title>By: TGO</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/15/george-weigel-catholic-church-must-consider-getting-out-of-civil-marriage-business/comment-page-1/#comment-80215</link>
		<dc:creator>TGO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:15:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=50957#comment-80215</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[While the government won&#039;t directly require a Catholic priest to perform such a marriage (because of religious freedom) stripping away tax exempt status is not such an outlandish government response.  Why give special tax benefits to invidious discriminators?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While the government won&#8217;t directly require a Catholic priest to perform such a marriage (because of religious freedom) stripping away tax exempt status is not such an outlandish government response.  Why give special tax benefits to invidious discriminators?</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Petrik</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/15/george-weigel-catholic-church-must-consider-getting-out-of-civil-marriage-business/comment-page-1/#comment-79927</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Petrik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 16:01:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=50957#comment-79927</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with much of what Mr. Nichol says, but somehow don&#039;t find it all that comforting.  Yes, it is highly unlikely that state or federal law will develop to prohibit Catholic priests from discriminating against gays in the administration of the sacrament of matrimony.  What is quite likely is the eventual removal of governmental recognition of such sacraments as accomplishing a civil marriage.  Polygamous marriages will be recognized though, even if not performed by Muslim clerics who refuse to perform gay marriages.  
The real question is whether civil marriage is becoming so ontologically distinct from sacramental marriage that their connection is nothing more than a marriage of convenience.  I&#039;m not sure I agree with Weigel, but his point is a fair one.  At some point our understanding of matrimony will become so different from civil marriage that the Church would be wise to separate the two in order to avoid confusion.  This is especially true if the best argument against this separation is one of mere convenience.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with much of what Mr. Nichol says, but somehow don&#8217;t find it all that comforting.  Yes, it is highly unlikely that state or federal law will develop to prohibit Catholic priests from discriminating against gays in the administration of the sacrament of matrimony.  What is quite likely is the eventual removal of governmental recognition of such sacraments as accomplishing a civil marriage.  Polygamous marriages will be recognized though, even if not performed by Muslim clerics who refuse to perform gay marriages.<br />
The real question is whether civil marriage is becoming so ontologically distinct from sacramental marriage that their connection is nothing more than a marriage of convenience.  I&#8217;m not sure I agree with Weigel, but his point is a fair one.  At some point our understanding of matrimony will become so different from civil marriage that the Church would be wise to separate the two in order to avoid confusion.  This is especially true if the best argument against this separation is one of mere convenience.</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/15/george-weigel-catholic-church-must-consider-getting-out-of-civil-marriage-business/comment-page-1/#comment-79728</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2012 22:32:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=50957#comment-79728</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Why not? They have tax exempt status. There are anti-discrimination laws. &lt;/i&gt;

Justin R,

Religious organizations are legally permitted to &quot;discriminate&quot; on the basis of religion. The unanimous decision in &lt;i&gt;Hosanna-Tabor&lt;/i&gt; was a very clear signal from the Supreme Court that that is the case. The US Government (or state governments) will not and cannot tell the Catholic Church how and to whom to administer the sacraments. The issue is very simple. The government has never told the Catholic Church whom it may or not marry (or baptize, or administer communion to, or ordain) in the past, and it is not going to do so in the future. 

I suppose some will bring up the old cliché about &quot;never say never.&quot; If you don&#039;t want me to say with certainty that it will never happy, then allow me to say that it is as likely that the government will try to force the Catholic Church to perform same-sex weddings as it is that the Catholic Church will gain control over the US government, make Catholicism the state religion, and ban all other religions. Nobody can &lt;i&gt;prove&lt;/i&gt; that won&#039;t happen, but what are the odds? It is such an outlandish scenario that it is not worth talking about.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Why not? They have tax exempt status. There are anti-discrimination laws. </i></p>
<p>Justin R,</p>
<p>Religious organizations are legally permitted to &#8220;discriminate&#8221; on the basis of religion. The unanimous decision in <i>Hosanna-Tabor</i> was a very clear signal from the Supreme Court that that is the case. The US Government (or state governments) will not and cannot tell the Catholic Church how and to whom to administer the sacraments. The issue is very simple. The government has never told the Catholic Church whom it may or not marry (or baptize, or administer communion to, or ordain) in the past, and it is not going to do so in the future. </p>
<p>I suppose some will bring up the old cliché about &#8220;never say never.&#8221; If you don&#8217;t want me to say with certainty that it will never happy, then allow me to say that it is as likely that the government will try to force the Catholic Church to perform same-sex weddings as it is that the Catholic Church will gain control over the US government, make Catholicism the state religion, and ban all other religions. Nobody can <i>prove</i> that won&#8217;t happen, but what are the odds? It is such an outlandish scenario that it is not worth talking about.</p>
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		<title>By: gentlemind</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/15/george-weigel-catholic-church-must-consider-getting-out-of-civil-marriage-business/comment-page-1/#comment-79712</link>
		<dc:creator>gentlemind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2012 13:34:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=50957#comment-79712</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Catholic Church should certainly continue to offer marriage services - as should other faiths. However, in places where the legal definition of marriage does not accord with the physical reality of marriage (a lifelong union of one man and one woman), the Church has a duty to not legally register the marriage. To do so would be to register it into a legal institution that contradicts the natural law.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Catholic Church should certainly continue to offer marriage services &#8211; as should other faiths. However, in places where the legal definition of marriage does not accord with the physical reality of marriage (a lifelong union of one man and one woman), the Church has a duty to not legally register the marriage. To do so would be to register it into a legal institution that contradicts the natural law.</p>
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		<title>By: Back in the Fold</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/15/george-weigel-catholic-church-must-consider-getting-out-of-civil-marriage-business/comment-page-1/#comment-79687</link>
		<dc:creator>Back in the Fold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2012 22:54:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=50957#comment-79687</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] the Church engage with society? How should it participate in the political processs? George Weigel urges priests to fight what he calls the gay insurgency by refusing to act as witnesses in civil marriages. Eric Pavlat [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the Church engage with society? How should it participate in the political processs? George Weigel urges priests to fight what he calls the gay insurgency by refusing to act as witnesses in civil marriages. Eric Pavlat [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Ingles</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/15/george-weigel-catholic-church-must-consider-getting-out-of-civil-marriage-business/comment-page-1/#comment-79662</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Ingles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2012 17:49:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=50957#comment-79662</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dave - &lt;blockquote&gt;A state would pass a law saying that in order to be a legal officiant for marriage, you must marry any couple legally permitted to marry in that state... I don’t see this happening any time soon.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t see it happening at all. As far as I can tell, every single law respecting gay marriage has specifically exempted clergy from any obligation to marry people not in accord with their church&#039;s doctrine. I know of no one - no one - who&#039;s proposing anything different.

Besides, Weigel isn&#039;t talking about the priests &#039;giving up the power to marry&#039;. He&#039;s talking about priests &lt;i&gt;voluntarily refraining&lt;/i&gt; from exercising that power. As in, &quot;declining to act as agents of government in witnessing marriages for purposes of state law.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave &#8211;<br />
<blockquote>A state would pass a law saying that in order to be a legal officiant for marriage, you must marry any couple legally permitted to marry in that state&#8230; I don’t see this happening any time soon.</p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t see it happening at all. As far as I can tell, every single law respecting gay marriage has specifically exempted clergy from any obligation to marry people not in accord with their church&#8217;s doctrine. I know of no one &#8211; no one &#8211; who&#8217;s proposing anything different.</p>
<p>Besides, Weigel isn&#8217;t talking about the priests &#8216;giving up the power to marry&#8217;. He&#8217;s talking about priests <i>voluntarily refraining</i> from exercising that power. As in, &#8220;declining to act as agents of government in witnessing marriages for purposes of state law.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: I am not Spartacus</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/15/george-weigel-catholic-church-must-consider-getting-out-of-civil-marriage-business/comment-page-1/#comment-79652</link>
		<dc:creator>I am not Spartacus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2012 14:22:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=50957#comment-79652</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Manhattan Declaration was a huge mistake


http://www.culturewars.com/2010/Manhattan.htm]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Manhattan Declaration was a huge mistake</p>
<p><a href="http://www.culturewars.com/2010/Manhattan.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.culturewars.com/2010/Manhattan.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Justin R</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/15/george-weigel-catholic-church-must-consider-getting-out-of-civil-marriage-business/comment-page-1/#comment-79634</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2012 08:40:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=50957#comment-79634</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;It’s just not going to happen that a Catholic priest would be legally required to perform marriages of same-sex couples or be in legal jeopardy for refusing to do so.&quot;

Why not?  They have tax exempt status.  There are anti-discrimination laws.  You sound like someone 40 years ago saying, &quot;It&#039;s just not going to happen that a...doctor would be legally allowed to help kill a patient...doctor would be required by law to refer patients to abortionists (and their supporters)....pharmacist must distribute &quot;morning after&quot; pills regardless of faith...teenager who wants to find therapy to curtail same-sex attraction would be prohibited by law&quot;

The amazing thing is that you don&#039;t see where all this is headed.

I don&#039;t know if you are a believer, but I would caution you that persecution is coming for those whose public expression of faith doesn&#039;t &quot;conform&quot; to socially appropriate norms.  And perhaps, that&#039;s what He desires after all.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It’s just not going to happen that a Catholic priest would be legally required to perform marriages of same-sex couples or be in legal jeopardy for refusing to do so.&#8221;</p>
<p>Why not?  They have tax exempt status.  There are anti-discrimination laws.  You sound like someone 40 years ago saying, &#8220;It&#8217;s just not going to happen that a&#8230;doctor would be legally allowed to help kill a patient&#8230;doctor would be required by law to refer patients to abortionists (and their supporters)&#8230;.pharmacist must distribute &#8220;morning after&#8221; pills regardless of faith&#8230;teenager who wants to find therapy to curtail same-sex attraction would be prohibited by law&#8221;</p>
<p>The amazing thing is that you don&#8217;t see where all this is headed.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if you are a believer, but I would caution you that persecution is coming for those whose public expression of faith doesn&#8217;t &#8220;conform&#8221; to socially appropriate norms.  And perhaps, that&#8217;s what He desires after all.</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/15/george-weigel-catholic-church-must-consider-getting-out-of-civil-marriage-business/comment-page-1/#comment-79609</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2012 04:35:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=50957#comment-79609</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;I’m not sure your point is. It sounds like playing with terms to ensure you’re right. &lt;/i&gt;

Dave,

You have basically stated what my own position is. The only thing I would do is state your third point more strongly. It&#039;s just not going to happen that a Catholic priest would be legally required to perform marriages of same-sex couples or be in legal jeopardy for refusing to do so.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I’m not sure your point is. It sounds like playing with terms to ensure you’re right. </i></p>
<p>Dave,</p>
<p>You have basically stated what my own position is. The only thing I would do is state your third point more strongly. It&#8217;s just not going to happen that a Catholic priest would be legally required to perform marriages of same-sex couples or be in legal jeopardy for refusing to do so.</p>
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		<title>By: mr. mcC</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/15/george-weigel-catholic-church-must-consider-getting-out-of-civil-marriage-business/comment-page-1/#comment-79602</link>
		<dc:creator>mr. mcC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2012 02:40:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=50957#comment-79602</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with Dave N. above.  Right now, the state views weddings performed by ordained ministers  as valid marriages from a civil perspective. That could always change and may well be the way the LGBT group fights. 

I doubt priests will be ordered to perform any weddings outside that which they do now, however.  After all, at present the Church can wholesale refuse to marry those who are divorced, those who have voluntarily sterilized themselves, couples who aren&#039;t Catholic, or really for any reason that would appear to make the union invalid, such as immaturity of the couple, or one partner having serious emotional problems, etc...Priests decline to marry people for situations all the time. I don&#039;t see how priests could be legally forced to marry same sex people when they aren&#039;t forced to marry these other folks.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Dave N. above.  Right now, the state views weddings performed by ordained ministers  as valid marriages from a civil perspective. That could always change and may well be the way the LGBT group fights. </p>
<p>I doubt priests will be ordered to perform any weddings outside that which they do now, however.  After all, at present the Church can wholesale refuse to marry those who are divorced, those who have voluntarily sterilized themselves, couples who aren&#8217;t Catholic, or really for any reason that would appear to make the union invalid, such as immaturity of the couple, or one partner having serious emotional problems, etc&#8230;Priests decline to marry people for situations all the time. I don&#8217;t see how priests could be legally forced to marry same sex people when they aren&#8217;t forced to marry these other folks.</p>
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