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	<title>Comments on: Roy Bourgeois, Advocate for Women&#8217;s Ordination, Dismissed from Priesthood</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/19/ray-bourgeois-priest-who-ordained-women-dismissed-from-priesthood/</link>
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		<title>By: Bibbit</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/19/ray-bourgeois-priest-who-ordained-women-dismissed-from-priesthood/comment-page-1/#comment-80150</link>
		<dc:creator>Bibbit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 18:15:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=51105#comment-80150</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Maybe I am too simpleminded, but I don&#039;t understand why people find it so hard to believe that God didn&#039;t just happen to create us male and female.  Assuming He did have specific reasons for it, then is it hard to think the roles we assume in the Church are part of it?  And do folks really think that men willing to die for the faith were too chicken to ordain women for fear of cultural backlash?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe I am too simpleminded, but I don&#8217;t understand why people find it so hard to believe that God didn&#8217;t just happen to create us male and female.  Assuming He did have specific reasons for it, then is it hard to think the roles we assume in the Church are part of it?  And do folks really think that men willing to die for the faith were too chicken to ordain women for fear of cultural backlash?</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/19/ray-bourgeois-priest-who-ordained-women-dismissed-from-priesthood/comment-page-1/#comment-80092</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 14:40:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=51105#comment-80092</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Elizabeth,

Thanks! I always appreciate book recommendations.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Elizabeth,</p>
<p>Thanks! I always appreciate book recommendations.</p>
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		<title>By: Elizabeth</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/19/ray-bourgeois-priest-who-ordained-women-dismissed-from-priesthood/comment-page-1/#comment-80017</link>
		<dc:creator>Elizabeth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 00:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=51105#comment-80017</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey, David.  

A good book to read re: the Church&#039;s teaching on this issue is Sara Butler&#039;s The Catholic Priesthood and Women.  She was asked by John Cardinal O&#039;Connor to write it even though at the time she was sympathetic to women&#039;s ordination and thought it best that he ask someone else to do the project.  He persisted and while doing the research she came to see why the Church reserves priestly ordination to males. The book has a great bibliography, too.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, David.  </p>
<p>A good book to read re: the Church&#8217;s teaching on this issue is Sara Butler&#8217;s The Catholic Priesthood and Women.  She was asked by John Cardinal O&#8217;Connor to write it even though at the time she was sympathetic to women&#8217;s ordination and thought it best that he ask someone else to do the project.  He persisted and while doing the research she came to see why the Church reserves priestly ordination to males. The book has a great bibliography, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/19/ray-bourgeois-priest-who-ordained-women-dismissed-from-priesthood/comment-page-1/#comment-79923</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 15:44:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=51105#comment-79923</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David, I&#039;m sure you&#039;re aware that the Catholic Encyclopedia is not an exercise of the Magisterium, whereas the doctrine of a male-only priesthood is.

It may be that women have a greater role to play in the temporal governance of the Church. However, they must find another way to do so aside from the priesthood.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;re aware that the Catholic Encyclopedia is not an exercise of the Magisterium, whereas the doctrine of a male-only priesthood is.</p>
<p>It may be that women have a greater role to play in the temporal governance of the Church. However, they must find another way to do so aside from the priesthood.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard M</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/19/ray-bourgeois-priest-who-ordained-women-dismissed-from-priesthood/comment-page-1/#comment-79910</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 15:15:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=51105#comment-79910</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hello David Nickol,

&quot;Having gone to Catholic elementary school in the 1950s and been taught the nearly 2000-year-old Catholic position on the Jews, I would never have guessed that it would change so dramatically in my lifetime. Likewise the Catholic position on freedom of religion.&quot;

Might I suggest that the nature of the priesthood entails irreformable dogmatic teaching in a way that our interreligious attitude toward the Jews, or the relationship between Church and state, do not?

Much less was changed in Nostra Aetate about the Church&#039;s position on the Jews than meets the eye, in any case. And as for Dignitatis Humanae, it explicitly affirmed that the Council left &quot;untouched traditional Catholic doctrine on the moral duty of men and societies toward the true religion and toward the one Church of Christ.&quot;

If you think otherwise, it turns out that you may have something in common with the SSPX after all.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello David Nickol,</p>
<p>&#8220;Having gone to Catholic elementary school in the 1950s and been taught the nearly 2000-year-old Catholic position on the Jews, I would never have guessed that it would change so dramatically in my lifetime. Likewise the Catholic position on freedom of religion.&#8221;</p>
<p>Might I suggest that the nature of the priesthood entails irreformable dogmatic teaching in a way that our interreligious attitude toward the Jews, or the relationship between Church and state, do not?</p>
<p>Much less was changed in Nostra Aetate about the Church&#8217;s position on the Jews than meets the eye, in any case. And as for Dignitatis Humanae, it explicitly affirmed that the Council left &#8220;untouched traditional Catholic doctrine on the moral duty of men and societies toward the true religion and toward the one Church of Christ.&#8221;</p>
<p>If you think otherwise, it turns out that you may have something in common with the SSPX after all.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard M</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/19/ray-bourgeois-priest-who-ordained-women-dismissed-from-priesthood/comment-page-1/#comment-79907</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 14:57:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=51105#comment-79907</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hello David Nickol,

&quot;I am no expert on the arguments against ordaining women, but what I know does not seem to be all that convincing.&quot;

Well, for starters, have you read Inter Insigniores, issued by the CDF under Paul VI&#039;s imprature?

The power to bind and loose does have limits, and it does not extend to overturning the teachings or precedents of Christ.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello David Nickol,</p>
<p>&#8220;I am no expert on the arguments against ordaining women, but what I know does not seem to be all that convincing.&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, for starters, have you read Inter Insigniores, issued by the CDF under Paul VI&#8217;s imprature?</p>
<p>The power to bind and loose does have limits, and it does not extend to overturning the teachings or precedents of Christ.</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/19/ray-bourgeois-priest-who-ordained-women-dismissed-from-priesthood/comment-page-1/#comment-79906</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 14:55:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=51105#comment-79906</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;It’s funny that you think 100 years will see women ordained when 2000 years has not. &lt;/i&gt;

Chris,

Having gone to Catholic elementary school in the 1950s and been taught the nearly 2000-year-old Catholic position on the Jews, I would never have guessed that it would change so dramatically in my lifetime. Likewise the Catholic position on freedom of religion. And if you read the article &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15687b.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Woman&lt;/a&gt; in the hundred-year-old online &lt;i&gt;Catholic Encyclopedia, I think you may agree that the attitude of the Church has changed so much in the past hundred years that it is impossible to predict what it will be in another hundred:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;b&gt;&quot;The learning of women like that of men must be limited to the study of those things which belong to their calling;&lt;/b&gt; The difference in their activities must also give a different direction to their studies.&quot; The entrance of women as students in the universities, which has of late years spread in all countries, is to be judged according to these principles. Far from obstructing such a course in itself, Catholics encourage it. This has led in Germany to the founding of the &quot;Hildegardisverein&quot; for the aid of Catholic women students of higher branches of learning. &lt;b&gt;Moreover, nature also shows here her undeniable regulating power. There is no need to fear the overcrowding of the academic professions by women.&lt;/b&gt;

&lt;b&gt;. . . For the studious woman as for others who earn a livelihood the academic calling is only a temporary position. The sexes can never be on an equality as regards studies pursued at a university.&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/i&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>It’s funny that you think 100 years will see women ordained when 2000 years has not. </i></p>
<p>Chris,</p>
<p>Having gone to Catholic elementary school in the 1950s and been taught the nearly 2000-year-old Catholic position on the Jews, I would never have guessed that it would change so dramatically in my lifetime. Likewise the Catholic position on freedom of religion. And if you read the article <a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15687b.htm" rel="nofollow">Woman</a> in the hundred-year-old online <i>Catholic Encyclopedia, I think you may agree that the attitude of the Church has changed so much in the past hundred years that it is impossible to predict what it will be in another hundred:</p>
<blockquote><p><b>&#8220;The learning of women like that of men must be limited to the study of those things which belong to their calling;</b> The difference in their activities must also give a different direction to their studies.&#8221; The entrance of women as students in the universities, which has of late years spread in all countries, is to be judged according to these principles. Far from obstructing such a course in itself, Catholics encourage it. This has led in Germany to the founding of the &#8220;Hildegardisverein&#8221; for the aid of Catholic women students of higher branches of learning. <b>Moreover, nature also shows here her undeniable regulating power. There is no need to fear the overcrowding of the academic professions by women.</b></p>
<p><b>. . . For the studious woman as for others who earn a livelihood the academic calling is only a temporary position. The sexes can never be on an equality as regards studies pursued at a university.</b></p></blockquote>
<p></i></p>
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		<title>By: Richard M</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/19/ray-bourgeois-priest-who-ordained-women-dismissed-from-priesthood/comment-page-1/#comment-79905</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 14:54:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=51105#comment-79905</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Roy Bourgeois was given every chance - and more - to demonstrate obedience to the vocation he took vows to uphold. His dismissal to the priesthood is a sad occasion, but an overdue one.

We doubt this will cause him to change his mind, or that of any of his progressive supporters at NCR. They&#039;re not convinced because, for the most part, they really won&#039;t listen.  But failing that, they could at least ponder the rapid disintegration of Christian denominations that have embraced ordaining women. Judge them by their fruits, as would Gamaliel. You will find them wanting.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roy Bourgeois was given every chance &#8211; and more &#8211; to demonstrate obedience to the vocation he took vows to uphold. His dismissal to the priesthood is a sad occasion, but an overdue one.</p>
<p>We doubt this will cause him to change his mind, or that of any of his progressive supporters at NCR. They&#8217;re not convinced because, for the most part, they really won&#8217;t listen.  But failing that, they could at least ponder the rapid disintegration of Christian denominations that have embraced ordaining women. Judge them by their fruits, as would Gamaliel. You will find them wanting.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael P. Walsh, MM</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/19/ray-bourgeois-priest-who-ordained-women-dismissed-from-priesthood/comment-page-1/#comment-79894</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael P. Walsh, MM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 14:25:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=51105#comment-79894</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I found it sad but predictable that my estranged brother turned his attention inward, toward remaking the Church in his own image --away from his longtime focus upon US foreign policy-- right around the time Obama entered the Oval Office.  But the &#039;progressive&#039; members of the Church have always been selective in their indignation, seasonal in their Gospel, and ideological in their faith.  What should be a prophetic voice has become an echo; what should be a &#039;leaven&#039; has become a rubber-stamp.  When it comes to issues approved by the secular left they wrap themselves in the mantle of Franz Jagerstatter; but when, for example, the State intrudes upon traditional faith and society, they don the uniform of Vidkun Quisling.  Is it any wonder our numbers are in such decline, that few would follow such an uncertain trumpet?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found it sad but predictable that my estranged brother turned his attention inward, toward remaking the Church in his own image &#8211;away from his longtime focus upon US foreign policy&#8211; right around the time Obama entered the Oval Office.  But the &#8216;progressive&#8217; members of the Church have always been selective in their indignation, seasonal in their Gospel, and ideological in their faith.  What should be a prophetic voice has become an echo; what should be a &#8216;leaven&#8217; has become a rubber-stamp.  When it comes to issues approved by the secular left they wrap themselves in the mantle of Franz Jagerstatter; but when, for example, the State intrudes upon traditional faith and society, they don the uniform of Vidkun Quisling.  Is it any wonder our numbers are in such decline, that few would follow such an uncertain trumpet?</p>
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		<title>By: TXW</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/19/ray-bourgeois-priest-who-ordained-women-dismissed-from-priesthood/comment-page-1/#comment-79849</link>
		<dc:creator>TXW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 05:08:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=51105#comment-79849</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I like the collage behind his head in the picture, made with Elmer&#039;s glue and felt, thumbtacked to the wall. It is of the &quot;People without Faces&quot; genre of liturgical art.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the collage behind his head in the picture, made with Elmer&#8217;s glue and felt, thumbtacked to the wall. It is of the &#8220;People without Faces&#8221; genre of liturgical art.</p>
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