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	<title>Comments on: Marco Rubio and Science</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/20/marco-rubio-and-science/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Ray Ingles</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/20/marco-rubio-and-science/comment-page-1/#comment-80561</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Ingles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2012 14:45:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=51133#comment-80561</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bob Drury - &lt;blockquote&gt;Almost every matter of history, we typically accept based on faith in other human beings.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://ingles.homeunix.net/rants/atheism/faith.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;There&#039;s such a thing as rational trust, and irrational mistrust, though.&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;He was right to point out that the scientific question is economically irrelevant.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Tell that to &lt;a href=&quot;http://web.archive.org/web/20110722184241/http://home.entouch.net/dmd/gstory.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;petroleum geologists&lt;/a&gt;. A topic relevant to someone who sits on the Senate Commerce, Science, and Technology Committee.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob Drury &#8211;<br />
<blockquote>Almost every matter of history, we typically accept based on faith in other human beings.</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://ingles.homeunix.net/rants/atheism/faith.html" rel="nofollow">There&#8217;s such a thing as rational trust, and irrational mistrust, though.</a></p>
<blockquote><p>He was right to point out that the scientific question is economically irrelevant.</p></blockquote>
<p>Tell that to <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20110722184241/http://home.entouch.net/dmd/gstory.htm" rel="nofollow">petroleum geologists</a>. A topic relevant to someone who sits on the Senate Commerce, Science, and Technology Committee.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Drury</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/20/marco-rubio-and-science/comment-page-1/#comment-80471</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Drury</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2012 02:56:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=51133#comment-80471</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Almost every matter of history, we typically accept based on faith in other human beings.  The same is true of science.  How many scientific experiments have you performed where you took nothing on faith in others?  This would include your having built from scratch or verified every detail of the instrumentation used as well as having experimentally verified all the scientific principles upon which the instrumentation was based.  One’s knowledge of both history and science is founded, not on personal experience, but on faith in the testimony of others.  No matter how well founded that faith may be, it is faith.

Admittedly, Marco Rubio should not have hedged on his faith in scientists regarding the age of the earth rather than to say what seemed politically convenient.  He was right to point out that the scientific question is economically irrelevant.

Of course, some things scientists say are obviously erroneous.  A good example is Richard Dawkins’ claim that his metaphor of a multiple-dial lock illustrates an increase in the probability of evolutionary success of natural selection.  It does not.  It illustrates an increase in the efficiency of random mutation.  In his failure to understand the distinction between efficiency and probability, Dawkins demonstrates his lack of understanding of the Darwinian algorithm he is attempting to explain (pages 121-122, “The God Delusion”).  In this case, the layman can rely on his personal knowledge of high school arithmetic and the Darwinian algorithm to avoid false faith in a scientist.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Almost every matter of history, we typically accept based on faith in other human beings.  The same is true of science.  How many scientific experiments have you performed where you took nothing on faith in others?  This would include your having built from scratch or verified every detail of the instrumentation used as well as having experimentally verified all the scientific principles upon which the instrumentation was based.  One’s knowledge of both history and science is founded, not on personal experience, but on faith in the testimony of others.  No matter how well founded that faith may be, it is faith.</p>
<p>Admittedly, Marco Rubio should not have hedged on his faith in scientists regarding the age of the earth rather than to say what seemed politically convenient.  He was right to point out that the scientific question is economically irrelevant.</p>
<p>Of course, some things scientists say are obviously erroneous.  A good example is Richard Dawkins’ claim that his metaphor of a multiple-dial lock illustrates an increase in the probability of evolutionary success of natural selection.  It does not.  It illustrates an increase in the efficiency of random mutation.  In his failure to understand the distinction between efficiency and probability, Dawkins demonstrates his lack of understanding of the Darwinian algorithm he is attempting to explain (pages 121-122, “The God Delusion”).  In this case, the layman can rely on his personal knowledge of high school arithmetic and the Darwinian algorithm to avoid false faith in a scientist.</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/20/marco-rubio-and-science/comment-page-1/#comment-80449</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Nov 2012 19:49:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=51133#comment-80449</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I invite anyone overawed by the power of science to read Paul Feyerabend&#039;s dismantling of &quot;the scientific method,&quot; and of science taking &quot;the path of least resistance.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I invite anyone overawed by the power of science to read Paul Feyerabend&#8217;s dismantling of &#8220;the scientific method,&#8221; and of science taking &#8220;the path of least resistance.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: FRIDAY GOD &#38; CAESAR EDITION &#124; Big Pulpit</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/20/marco-rubio-and-science/comment-page-1/#comment-80445</link>
		<dc:creator>FRIDAY GOD &#38; CAESAR EDITION &#124; Big Pulpit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Nov 2012 18:57:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=51133#comment-80445</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Marco Rubio and Science &#8211; Joseph Knippenberg, First Thoughts [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Marco Rubio and Science &#8211; Joseph Knippenberg, First Thoughts [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Melendez</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/20/marco-rubio-and-science/comment-page-1/#comment-80189</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Melendez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 21:00:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=51133#comment-80189</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I can&#039;t help but think the whole YEC controversy is contrived. I have met people who have come to believe that Evolution must be wrong due to the way evolution &quot;absolutists&quot; denigrate religion. If similar old-earth &quot;absolutists&quot; get established, the same reaction will set in for others. Explain and persuade. Don&#039;t hound. Otherwise, we give science a bad name and, no doubt, start substituting our own beliefs for &quot;science&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t help but think the whole YEC controversy is contrived. I have met people who have come to believe that Evolution must be wrong due to the way evolution &#8220;absolutists&#8221; denigrate religion. If similar old-earth &#8220;absolutists&#8221; get established, the same reaction will set in for others. Explain and persuade. Don&#8217;t hound. Otherwise, we give science a bad name and, no doubt, start substituting our own beliefs for &#8220;science&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Snow</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/20/marco-rubio-and-science/comment-page-1/#comment-80177</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Snow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 20:03:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=51133#comment-80177</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is time for YECs and other unbiblical Christians to get over it and admit that the first two verses of the Bible, do exist.

http://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2012/05/03/in-the-beginning/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is time for YECs and other unbiblical Christians to get over it and admit that the first two verses of the Bible, do exist.</p>
<p><a href="http://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2012/05/03/in-the-beginning/" rel="nofollow">http://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2012/05/03/in-the-beginning/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mike Melendez</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/20/marco-rubio-and-science/comment-page-1/#comment-79997</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Melendez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 20:44:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=51133#comment-79997</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David, A quibble. I suspect Joseph Knippenberg would gladly use science to determine whether of not a certain entity was human or not. That isn&#039;t a determination of rights-bearing. That question is whether humans should bear rights. It has nothing to do with science. Having determined that humans bear rights -- for example life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness -- science helps decide who is human.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, A quibble. I suspect Joseph Knippenberg would gladly use science to determine whether of not a certain entity was human or not. That isn&#8217;t a determination of rights-bearing. That question is whether humans should bear rights. It has nothing to do with science. Having determined that humans bear rights &#8212; for example life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness &#8212; science helps decide who is human.</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/20/marco-rubio-and-science/comment-page-1/#comment-79993</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 20:04:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=51133#comment-79993</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;as if science could tell help us distinguish between rights-bearers and non-rights-bearers&lt;/i&gt;

But even staunch pro-lifers insist that science can help tell us. They insist that a fertilized egg or zygote contains in its DNA all the instructions for a new human being and therefore &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; a new human being. Where did that information come from. Many times when the concept of quickening is brought up, pro-lifers point out that there may have been uncertainty in the past as to when a person existed, but modern embryology has clarified that life begins at conception. In several discussions recently here and elsewhere, pro-lifers have told me to check out what embryology textbooks say. In many ways, the pro-life argument relies more heavily on science than the pro-choice (or pro-abortion) arguments do. 

If Obama had used some other metaphor than &quot;above my pay grade&quot; (which I acknowledge was an abomination), his answer would have been at least as acceptable as McCain&#039;s (though not as popular). McCain&#039;s position was untenable. &quot;Babies&quot; possess human rights from the moment of conception, however, we may violate their right to life if they resulted from rape or incest, or if we want to harvest their stem cells.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>as if science could tell help us distinguish between rights-bearers and non-rights-bearers</i></p>
<p>But even staunch pro-lifers insist that science can help tell us. They insist that a fertilized egg or zygote contains in its DNA all the instructions for a new human being and therefore <i>is</i> a new human being. Where did that information come from. Many times when the concept of quickening is brought up, pro-lifers point out that there may have been uncertainty in the past as to when a person existed, but modern embryology has clarified that life begins at conception. In several discussions recently here and elsewhere, pro-lifers have told me to check out what embryology textbooks say. In many ways, the pro-life argument relies more heavily on science than the pro-choice (or pro-abortion) arguments do. </p>
<p>If Obama had used some other metaphor than &#8220;above my pay grade&#8221; (which I acknowledge was an abomination), his answer would have been at least as acceptable as McCain&#8217;s (though not as popular). McCain&#8217;s position was untenable. &#8220;Babies&#8221; possess human rights from the moment of conception, however, we may violate their right to life if they resulted from rape or incest, or if we want to harvest their stem cells.</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/20/marco-rubio-and-science/comment-page-1/#comment-79985</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 19:24:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=51133#comment-79985</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;And I stand behind my insistence that the benefits we derive from science ought not to blind us to its limitations. &lt;/i&gt;

Joseph Knippenberg,

Aren&#039;t you, somewhat like Rubio, evading the issue at hand? Of course we ought not be blind to the limitations of science. That doesn&#039;t mean we can&#039;t say the earth is 4.54 billion years old. Both you and R. R. Reno feel Rubio gave a bad answer to the question, but neither of you has said so far what a good answer would be. And was Rubio actually making your point, or just trying to evade answering the question?

Science has its limitations, but it also has its strengths, and when the question is the physical age of the earth, it is not &quot;scientism&quot; to look to science for the answer.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>And I stand behind my insistence that the benefits we derive from science ought not to blind us to its limitations. </i></p>
<p>Joseph Knippenberg,</p>
<p>Aren&#8217;t you, somewhat like Rubio, evading the issue at hand? Of course we ought not be blind to the limitations of science. That doesn&#8217;t mean we can&#8217;t say the earth is 4.54 billion years old. Both you and R. R. Reno feel Rubio gave a bad answer to the question, but neither of you has said so far what a good answer would be. And was Rubio actually making your point, or just trying to evade answering the question?</p>
<p>Science has its limitations, but it also has its strengths, and when the question is the physical age of the earth, it is not &#8220;scientism&#8221; to look to science for the answer.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph Knippenberg</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/11/20/marco-rubio-and-science/comment-page-1/#comment-79964</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Knippenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 17:52:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=51133#comment-79964</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Then-Senator Obama&#039;s evasion introduced science where some might argue it doesn&#039;t belong, as if science could tell help us distinguish between rights-bearers and non-rights-bearers.

In its own way, it&#039;s just as bad an answer as that offered by Senator Rubio.

And I stand behind my insistence that the benefits we derive from science ought not to blind us to its limitations.  Our current president isn&#039;t perhaps as alive to this problem as I&#039;d like.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then-Senator Obama&#8217;s evasion introduced science where some might argue it doesn&#8217;t belong, as if science could tell help us distinguish between rights-bearers and non-rights-bearers.</p>
<p>In its own way, it&#8217;s just as bad an answer as that offered by Senator Rubio.</p>
<p>And I stand behind my insistence that the benefits we derive from science ought not to blind us to its limitations.  Our current president isn&#8217;t perhaps as alive to this problem as I&#8217;d like.</p>
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