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	<title>Comments on: Wendell Berry on Cold-Hearted Christians and Homosexual Marriage</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/15/wendell-berry-on-cold-hearted-christians-and-homosexual-marriage/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 23 May 2013 11:02:18 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Paul Dobbs</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/15/wendell-berry-on-cold-hearted-christians-and-homosexual-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-87587</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Dobbs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 14:30:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55494#comment-87587</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gosh, I was not reporting a scientific study!  The children raised by homosexuals that I have observed are now in happy marriages.  My understanding has always been that two people committed to each other and functioning successfully to support one another are a family.  I would not hesitate even to so name two adult siblings living together as such, or   And I believe that this definition of family is widely accepted.

I readily concede that to observe another generation would produce more valuable data.

On the basis of anecdotal information, however, I do believe that children had been raised successfully by homosexual couples in other countries and in the USA &quot;under cover&quot; long before 1975.  

Finally I did not intend to attribute the destruction of children&#039;s lives to heterosexuality or church-going.  I just want to observe that neither of those individually or in tandem seems to guarantee the quality of marriages or the success of raising children.  Recipes are a more reliable factor in cooking food than in nurturing lives.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gosh, I was not reporting a scientific study!  The children raised by homosexuals that I have observed are now in happy marriages.  My understanding has always been that two people committed to each other and functioning successfully to support one another are a family.  I would not hesitate even to so name two adult siblings living together as such, or   And I believe that this definition of family is widely accepted.</p>
<p>I readily concede that to observe another generation would produce more valuable data.</p>
<p>On the basis of anecdotal information, however, I do believe that children had been raised successfully by homosexual couples in other countries and in the USA &#8220;under cover&#8221; long before 1975.  </p>
<p>Finally I did not intend to attribute the destruction of children&#8217;s lives to heterosexuality or church-going.  I just want to observe that neither of those individually or in tandem seems to guarantee the quality of marriages or the success of raising children.  Recipes are a more reliable factor in cooking food than in nurturing lives.</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/15/wendell-berry-on-cold-hearted-christians-and-homosexual-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-87393</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 15:58:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55494#comment-87393</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mike Walsh MM,

I have to ask, what is a &quot;veranda-con&quot;?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike Walsh MM,</p>
<p>I have to ask, what is a &#8220;veranda-con&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/15/wendell-berry-on-cold-hearted-christians-and-homosexual-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-87392</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 15:55:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55494#comment-87392</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Paul Dobbs,

You write in the plural saying,

&lt;blockquote&gt; I’ve witnessed joyfully that the children raised by homosexual couples have thrived to become vibrant productive adults who build strong families and contribute brilliantly to their communities.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Pardon me, but I just have to do a little math here.  You say you know various children raised by homosexual couples who&#039;ve grown and built their own strong families.  I think the average age to marry and have kids is about 29, so we&#039;ll add, say, another 6 years for you to observe that they have built strong families.  That 35 years total, so the children in question were born about 1977 and adopted that year or soon thereafter by a single homosexual person who was in a monogamous homosexual relationship at the time and continues to be.  Perhaps you could add some years to this math, but you are talking about multiple families you have observed first-hand so we are talking about some kind of date range.

It is remarkable that you are witness to not one, but multiple cases of &quot;grandchildren&quot; of homosexual couples.  This is remarkable because in 1975 or any reasonable timeframe thereafter, the situation you described was neither accepted nor legal.  Yet despite that, you say you have observed all this thriving, and going on for perhaps three or four decades now.  In what U.S. state did this occur?

As for the famlies that you described as &quot;hurt&quot; and &quot;deeply troubled,&quot; you describe them only as &quot;church-going&quot; and &quot;heterosexual.&quot;  Which of those two factors do you think led to the destruction of those families, or do you see the destruction as a combination of both?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul Dobbs,</p>
<p>You write in the plural saying,</p>
<blockquote><p> I’ve witnessed joyfully that the children raised by homosexual couples have thrived to become vibrant productive adults who build strong families and contribute brilliantly to their communities.</p></blockquote>
<p>Pardon me, but I just have to do a little math here.  You say you know various children raised by homosexual couples who&#8217;ve grown and built their own strong families.  I think the average age to marry and have kids is about 29, so we&#8217;ll add, say, another 6 years for you to observe that they have built strong families.  That 35 years total, so the children in question were born about 1977 and adopted that year or soon thereafter by a single homosexual person who was in a monogamous homosexual relationship at the time and continues to be.  Perhaps you could add some years to this math, but you are talking about multiple families you have observed first-hand so we are talking about some kind of date range.</p>
<p>It is remarkable that you are witness to not one, but multiple cases of &#8220;grandchildren&#8221; of homosexual couples.  This is remarkable because in 1975 or any reasonable timeframe thereafter, the situation you described was neither accepted nor legal.  Yet despite that, you say you have observed all this thriving, and going on for perhaps three or four decades now.  In what U.S. state did this occur?</p>
<p>As for the famlies that you described as &#8220;hurt&#8221; and &#8220;deeply troubled,&#8221; you describe them only as &#8220;church-going&#8221; and &#8220;heterosexual.&#8221;  Which of those two factors do you think led to the destruction of those families, or do you see the destruction as a combination of both?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Dobbs</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/15/wendell-berry-on-cold-hearted-christians-and-homosexual-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-87374</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Dobbs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 13:24:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55494#comment-87374</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Berry&#039;s comments seem perfectly right to me.  He&#039;s not talking about love, but rather Love, the subject of the Gospels.  In my 59 years I&#039;ve seen sadly many cases where children raised by church-going heterosexuals have been terribly hurt and deeply troubled by their upbringing.  Whereas in other cases, I&#039;ve witnessed joyfully that the children raised by homosexual couples have thrived to become vibrant productive adults who build strong families and contribute brilliantly to their communities.  How could that be?  I suspect it&#039;s because God&#039;s ways are more mysterious than the fear of difference and the mean-spirited labeling and fingerpointing would suggest.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Berry&#8217;s comments seem perfectly right to me.  He&#8217;s not talking about love, but rather Love, the subject of the Gospels.  In my 59 years I&#8217;ve seen sadly many cases where children raised by church-going heterosexuals have been terribly hurt and deeply troubled by their upbringing.  Whereas in other cases, I&#8217;ve witnessed joyfully that the children raised by homosexual couples have thrived to become vibrant productive adults who build strong families and contribute brilliantly to their communities.  How could that be?  I suspect it&#8217;s because God&#8217;s ways are more mysterious than the fear of difference and the mean-spirited labeling and fingerpointing would suggest.</p>
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		<title>By: SteveP</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/15/wendell-berry-on-cold-hearted-christians-and-homosexual-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-87325</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 02:28:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55494#comment-87325</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Perhaps Berry might pasture two rams and then try to sell CSA shares in spring lamb.  Then he can wonder at the unkindness of his neighbors who do not invest in his vision – they might be farmers, not philosophers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps Berry might pasture two rams and then try to sell CSA shares in spring lamb.  Then he can wonder at the unkindness of his neighbors who do not invest in his vision – they might be farmers, not philosophers.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Walsh, MM</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/15/wendell-berry-on-cold-hearted-christians-and-homosexual-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-87303</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Walsh, MM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 22:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55494#comment-87303</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nothing Berry says surprises me.  What does surprise me is that, in spite of the available evidence, the veranda-cons are so eager to find a kindred spirit in one who --apart from some crotchety pronouncements about country life-- is nothing but a garden-variety liberal.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nothing Berry says surprises me.  What does surprise me is that, in spite of the available evidence, the veranda-cons are so eager to find a kindred spirit in one who &#8211;apart from some crotchety pronouncements about country life&#8211; is nothing but a garden-variety liberal.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Tardiff</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/15/wendell-berry-on-cold-hearted-christians-and-homosexual-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-87234</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Tardiff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 16:48:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55494#comment-87234</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Why is it that it’s perfectly acceptable, even admirable, for Straight (i.e. heterosexual) couples to date, get engaged, get married, and build lives together in the context of monogamy and commitment, and that this is a GOOD thing … but for Gay couples to do exactly the same is somehow a BAD thing?&quot;

The answer has to do in part with the difference between intercourse and sodomy, or with the nature of the human body. The anus is not a sexual organ, and it is harmed by being used as such. A person cannot express the love he feels for someone through an act that is medically unsound. All of us celebrate love, but marriage is specifically sexual love. And certain sexual acts are incompatible, for anyone, with love.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Why is it that it’s perfectly acceptable, even admirable, for Straight (i.e. heterosexual) couples to date, get engaged, get married, and build lives together in the context of monogamy and commitment, and that this is a GOOD thing … but for Gay couples to do exactly the same is somehow a BAD thing?&#8221;</p>
<p>The answer has to do in part with the difference between intercourse and sodomy, or with the nature of the human body. The anus is not a sexual organ, and it is harmed by being used as such. A person cannot express the love he feels for someone through an act that is medically unsound. All of us celebrate love, but marriage is specifically sexual love. And certain sexual acts are incompatible, for anyone, with love.</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/15/wendell-berry-on-cold-hearted-christians-and-homosexual-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-87206</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 14:30:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55494#comment-87206</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wendell Berry&#039;s characterization of those who oppose the redefinition of marriage is remarkable! It shows that he has either closed his eyes to the countless works of writers on this topic appearing in nearly every religious, cultural, and political journal, magazine, and forum for at least the past decade, or that he has instead decided to just ignore their every argument and respond with one big &quot;they hate the gays.&quot;

To borrow his own words, this is the lowest form of thought.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wendell Berry&#8217;s characterization of those who oppose the redefinition of marriage is remarkable! It shows that he has either closed his eyes to the countless works of writers on this topic appearing in nearly every religious, cultural, and political journal, magazine, and forum for at least the past decade, or that he has instead decided to just ignore their every argument and respond with one big &#8220;they hate the gays.&#8221;</p>
<p>To borrow his own words, this is the lowest form of thought.</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/15/wendell-berry-on-cold-hearted-christians-and-homosexual-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-87183</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 12:08:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55494#comment-87183</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Henry (and Bo Grimes),

Let me second Bo Grimes&#039;s comment: the search box works very well.

Let me also recommend the following article by Russell Moore (a First Things contributor) on the harm of fornication, which is in this month&#039;s edition of Touchstone:

http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=26-01-020-v]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Henry (and Bo Grimes),</p>
<p>Let me second Bo Grimes&#8217;s comment: the search box works very well.</p>
<p>Let me also recommend the following article by Russell Moore (a First Things contributor) on the harm of fornication, which is in this month&#8217;s edition of Touchstone:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=26-01-020-v" rel="nofollow">http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=26-01-020-v</a></p>
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		<title>By: savvy</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/15/wendell-berry-on-cold-hearted-christians-and-homosexual-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-87167</link>
		<dc:creator>savvy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 04:53:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55494#comment-87167</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Marc Joseph Sosnowski,

Some hope might be left if France stands it&#039;s ground. Under French law, civil marriage, is about child-rearing, not the rights of two people in love.

The rights of children to a father and a mother, trump the rights to children, because parents ensure the well-being of their children, children do not exist to ensure the well-being of any two adults.

They are subjects not objects.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marc Joseph Sosnowski,</p>
<p>Some hope might be left if France stands it&#8217;s ground. Under French law, civil marriage, is about child-rearing, not the rights of two people in love.</p>
<p>The rights of children to a father and a mother, trump the rights to children, because parents ensure the well-being of their children, children do not exist to ensure the well-being of any two adults.</p>
<p>They are subjects not objects.</p>
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