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	<title>Comments on: Tolkien Absorbed in Absurdity</title>
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	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 19 Jun 2013 16:33:41 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Patrick Shea</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/17/tolkien-absorbed-in-absurdity/comment-page-1/#comment-87346</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Shea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 07:20:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55644#comment-87346</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;And ultimately Sauron is vindicated: No one voluntarily casts the ring into Mt. Doom. Rather, Frodo decides to keep it; Gollum takes it by force, then falls in by accident.&quot;

Sauron isn&#039;t vindicated by the brokenness of men and elves, far from it, and the doom of the ring couldn&#039;t have been farther from an accident. There are many pieces to the puzzle. Yes, power plays its part, but it simply isn&#039;t enough. Power wielded by man is never enough. The same goes for wizards and elvish queens as Gandalf and Galadriel clearly indicate!

So what bridges the gap? A long string of seemingly inexplicable mercies sets up the final conflict. Bilbo spares Gollum in the tunnel beneath the Misty Mountains. Aragorn spares him in the wilds after he and Gandalf have captured the wretch for interrogation. The wood elves spare him once again during his incarceration in their dungeons. Finally, Frodo spares the imp time and again as he begins to see his own fate reflected in Gollum&#039;s degradation.

One must ask how ancient elves, war-hardened men and naive hobbits all were moved to the same mercy when exposed to such a disgusting, clearly vile and evil creature? What or, more to the point, who allowed them to see Gollum&#039;s faded humanity and pity him?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And ultimately Sauron is vindicated: No one voluntarily casts the ring into Mt. Doom. Rather, Frodo decides to keep it; Gollum takes it by force, then falls in by accident.&#8221;</p>
<p>Sauron isn&#8217;t vindicated by the brokenness of men and elves, far from it, and the doom of the ring couldn&#8217;t have been farther from an accident. There are many pieces to the puzzle. Yes, power plays its part, but it simply isn&#8217;t enough. Power wielded by man is never enough. The same goes for wizards and elvish queens as Gandalf and Galadriel clearly indicate!</p>
<p>So what bridges the gap? A long string of seemingly inexplicable mercies sets up the final conflict. Bilbo spares Gollum in the tunnel beneath the Misty Mountains. Aragorn spares him in the wilds after he and Gandalf have captured the wretch for interrogation. The wood elves spare him once again during his incarceration in their dungeons. Finally, Frodo spares the imp time and again as he begins to see his own fate reflected in Gollum&#8217;s degradation.</p>
<p>One must ask how ancient elves, war-hardened men and naive hobbits all were moved to the same mercy when exposed to such a disgusting, clearly vile and evil creature? What or, more to the point, who allowed them to see Gollum&#8217;s faded humanity and pity him?</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Steinacker</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/17/tolkien-absorbed-in-absurdity/comment-page-1/#comment-87331</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Steinacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 04:04:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55644#comment-87331</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Before I re-read the Trilogy, and before I read the commentaries of the authors I mentioned in my comment above, I wouldn&#039;t have known much about some of the things I said there or am about to say now.

With my more deeply developed perspective I can understand Christopher Tolkien&#039;s distress. He knew his father bemoaned the loss of an English culture which had all but died with the introduction of the age of mechanization, as seen in WW I, but also in English (western) culture at large. Both Tom Bombadil (who was excised totally from the movie) and the hobbits of the Shire represented a way of life which Tolkien knew was almost gone forever (and by now is totally extinct). There is something terribly dreadful to mourn in this.

The commercialization he saw then (hardly as crass as it has emerged since, yet evil enough to Tolkien) was another element which was and remains central to the replacement culture Tolkien quickly abhorred for its sterility and lack of virtue.

As I said, I recognize the difficulties Jackson had in remaining more true to Tolkien&#039;s sensibilities. Having said that, the truth is that there were many elements intrinsic to the books which failed to make it into the films that would have better represented the depth and richness of Tolkien&#039;s  masterwork. I&#039;d like to provide examples, as someone asked, but even more so I&#039;d like to address a lot of the simply mistaken - or at least short-sighted - perspectives expressed by others here who still may be rooted in LOTR as a terrific action/adventure movie - which it is for those who haven&#039;t yet discovered what lies beneath.

However, that would take an even longer comment than I&#039;m writing now. Besides, I don&#039;t want to deprive you guys of the joy of learning a lot more about what Tolkien was up to throughout the books, which deserve several re-readings. Instead, I strongly recommend that...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Before I re-read the Trilogy, and before I read the commentaries of the authors I mentioned in my comment above, I wouldn&#8217;t have known much about some of the things I said there or am about to say now.</p>
<p>With my more deeply developed perspective I can understand Christopher Tolkien&#8217;s distress. He knew his father bemoaned the loss of an English culture which had all but died with the introduction of the age of mechanization, as seen in WW I, but also in English (western) culture at large. Both Tom Bombadil (who was excised totally from the movie) and the hobbits of the Shire represented a way of life which Tolkien knew was almost gone forever (and by now is totally extinct). There is something terribly dreadful to mourn in this.</p>
<p>The commercialization he saw then (hardly as crass as it has emerged since, yet evil enough to Tolkien) was another element which was and remains central to the replacement culture Tolkien quickly abhorred for its sterility and lack of virtue.</p>
<p>As I said, I recognize the difficulties Jackson had in remaining more true to Tolkien&#8217;s sensibilities. Having said that, the truth is that there were many elements intrinsic to the books which failed to make it into the films that would have better represented the depth and richness of Tolkien&#8217;s  masterwork. I&#8217;d like to provide examples, as someone asked, but even more so I&#8217;d like to address a lot of the simply mistaken &#8211; or at least short-sighted &#8211; perspectives expressed by others here who still may be rooted in LOTR as a terrific action/adventure movie &#8211; which it is for those who haven&#8217;t yet discovered what lies beneath.</p>
<p>However, that would take an even longer comment than I&#8217;m writing now. Besides, I don&#8217;t want to deprive you guys of the joy of learning a lot more about what Tolkien was up to throughout the books, which deserve several re-readings. Instead, I strongly recommend that&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Roberts</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/17/tolkien-absorbed-in-absurdity/comment-page-1/#comment-87323</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Roberts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 02:07:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55644#comment-87323</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wish I could write a letter to the guy telling him that I for one came to the books finally through the film. The philosophical impact he talks about has been reduced of course like a one cup bag used for two cups of tea. But not to nothing. Even if its only my testimony to the contrary.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish I could write a letter to the guy telling him that I for one came to the books finally through the film. The philosophical impact he talks about has been reduced of course like a one cup bag used for two cups of tea. But not to nothing. Even if its only my testimony to the contrary.</p>
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		<title>By: Ye Olde Statistician</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/17/tolkien-absorbed-in-absurdity/comment-page-1/#comment-87305</link>
		<dc:creator>Ye Olde Statistician</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 22:53:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55644#comment-87305</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Something else to remember is that a visual medium cannot do the same sorts of things that a textual medium can or in the same way.  (And vice versa.)  Ikon vs. logos.  Just as every science demands the methodology proper to it, so does every art.  Therefore, a film treatment of a novel &lt;i&gt;will&lt;/i&gt; differ from the novel itself.  Some departures will disappoint devotees of the logos, but may have been required by the necessary externalization of all subject matter.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Something else to remember is that a visual medium cannot do the same sorts of things that a textual medium can or in the same way.  (And vice versa.)  Ikon vs. logos.  Just as every science demands the methodology proper to it, so does every art.  Therefore, a film treatment of a novel <i>will</i> differ from the novel itself.  Some departures will disappoint devotees of the logos, but may have been required by the necessary externalization of all subject matter.</p>
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		<title>By: nobody.really</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/17/tolkien-absorbed-in-absurdity/comment-page-1/#comment-87301</link>
		<dc:creator>nobody.really</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 22:23:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55644#comment-87301</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ok, some sound Catholic themes here; fair enough. But most of these themes were in the films as well as the books, so I’m still puzzled about people’s objections.

&lt;blockquote&gt;1. The fact that the “wise” (i.e., Saruman, Sauron, Denethor) do not recognize power (salvation) in the humble (the Hobbits).&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don’t recall any point in the movies in which Saruman, Sauron, or Denethor said, “Look out, make way -- here come those big, bad hobbits!” 

&lt;blockquote&gt;2. Gandalf’s “resurrection” as “Gandalf the White”&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Uh … yeah, that’s in the movies: “death,” “resurrection,” wardrobe change.  

&lt;blockquote&gt;3. “Lembas” or “waybread” is an allusion to the Eucharist (so Tolkien tells us in his letters – “waybread” was an old English name for the Eucharist).&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Don’t recall the word “Lembas” of “waybread” in the movies. I scarcely recall them from the books. Honestly, if you cite Tolkien’s letters for the proposition that lembas refers to the Eucharist, that suggests that this idea isn’t really well conveyed in the books. 

&lt;blockquote&gt;6. Perhaps most importantly, evil and its great power are overcome not by more power but by self-sacrifice and love.... Sauron is mostly undone by his own blindness, assuming that his opponents would choose using his Ring against him and not destroying it….&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Most of this is in the films.

And the part that isn’t -- is nonsense. Yes, love/self-sacrifice play a role – but so does power!

Sauron loses the One Ring -- because he’s confronted by power. Frodo and Sam survive their journey -- by holding Gollum at swordpoint. They sneak into Mt. Doom -- because Sauron is distracted by an invading army.

And ultimately Sauron is vindicated: No one voluntarily casts the ring into Mt. Doom. Rather, Frodo decides to keep it; Gollum takes it by force, then falls in by accident.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, some sound Catholic themes here; fair enough. But most of these themes were in the films as well as the books, so I’m still puzzled about people’s objections.</p>
<blockquote><p>1. The fact that the “wise” (i.e., Saruman, Sauron, Denethor) do not recognize power (salvation) in the humble (the Hobbits).</p></blockquote>
<p>I don’t recall any point in the movies in which Saruman, Sauron, or Denethor said, “Look out, make way &#8212; here come those big, bad hobbits!” </p>
<blockquote><p>2. Gandalf’s “resurrection” as “Gandalf the White”</p></blockquote>
<p>Uh … yeah, that’s in the movies: “death,” “resurrection,” wardrobe change.  </p>
<blockquote><p>3. “Lembas” or “waybread” is an allusion to the Eucharist (so Tolkien tells us in his letters – “waybread” was an old English name for the Eucharist).</p></blockquote>
<p>Don’t recall the word “Lembas” of “waybread” in the movies. I scarcely recall them from the books. Honestly, if you cite Tolkien’s letters for the proposition that lembas refers to the Eucharist, that suggests that this idea isn’t really well conveyed in the books. </p>
<blockquote><p>6. Perhaps most importantly, evil and its great power are overcome not by more power but by self-sacrifice and love&#8230;. Sauron is mostly undone by his own blindness, assuming that his opponents would choose using his Ring against him and not destroying it….</p></blockquote>
<p>Most of this is in the films.</p>
<p>And the part that isn’t &#8212; is nonsense. Yes, love/self-sacrifice play a role – but so does power!</p>
<p>Sauron loses the One Ring &#8212; because he’s confronted by power. Frodo and Sam survive their journey &#8212; by holding Gollum at swordpoint. They sneak into Mt. Doom &#8212; because Sauron is distracted by an invading army.</p>
<p>And ultimately Sauron is vindicated: No one voluntarily casts the ring into Mt. Doom. Rather, Frodo decides to keep it; Gollum takes it by force, then falls in by accident.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/17/tolkien-absorbed-in-absurdity/comment-page-1/#comment-87299</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 22:22:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55644#comment-87299</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh, please. I loved the movies. And so did many of the rabid Tolkien fans I know.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, please. I loved the movies. And so did many of the rabid Tolkien fans I know.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Shea</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/17/tolkien-absorbed-in-absurdity/comment-page-1/#comment-87283</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Shea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 21:13:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55644#comment-87283</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Jackson film adaptations still convey the overarching themes of Providence and Grace that suffuse JRRT&#039;s novel. How could the movies not without warping the plot and characters beyond all recognition? Jackson did err badly in his characterizations, and several omitted/altered scenes and characters increased the distance between the dots Tolkien left to be connected.  Of special sadness for me were the omissions of Frodo&#039;s vision of Glorfindel at the Ford, the scene where another Power strives with Sauron when Frodo is wearing the ring atop Amon Hen and the scourging of the Shire. Perhaps worst of all, the movie Aragorn was a mistake from start to finish.

Jackson made up for some of this by including new scenes and dialog or by reemphasizing native dialog by moving it. Here I am especially thinking of the conversation between Gandalf and Frodo in Moria. Too often, the immediate effect of the tinkering is to highlight the heroism of a particular character (e.g., Sam&#039;s speeches to Faramir in Osgiliath and to Frodo on the slops of Orodruin). But not always. For instance, I think the expansion of the battle at Helm&#039;s Deep was well done and allowed a deeper exploration of the themes of despair and trusting to Hope. And how can one not tremble watching the more fully exposed battle between Gandalf and the Balrog in the Two Towers?

Jackson&#039;s chief mistake was the attempt at converting the story into what I have heard referred to again and again as a battle between good and evil, read as between good characters and bad characters.  That&#039;s not Tolkien&#039;s story, but more than enough remains of the original to whet the appetite of a world hungering for something real.  I completely understand Christopher Tolkien&#039;s reluctance, nonetheless.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Jackson film adaptations still convey the overarching themes of Providence and Grace that suffuse JRRT&#8217;s novel. How could the movies not without warping the plot and characters beyond all recognition? Jackson did err badly in his characterizations, and several omitted/altered scenes and characters increased the distance between the dots Tolkien left to be connected.  Of special sadness for me were the omissions of Frodo&#8217;s vision of Glorfindel at the Ford, the scene where another Power strives with Sauron when Frodo is wearing the ring atop Amon Hen and the scourging of the Shire. Perhaps worst of all, the movie Aragorn was a mistake from start to finish.</p>
<p>Jackson made up for some of this by including new scenes and dialog or by reemphasizing native dialog by moving it. Here I am especially thinking of the conversation between Gandalf and Frodo in Moria. Too often, the immediate effect of the tinkering is to highlight the heroism of a particular character (e.g., Sam&#8217;s speeches to Faramir in Osgiliath and to Frodo on the slops of Orodruin). But not always. For instance, I think the expansion of the battle at Helm&#8217;s Deep was well done and allowed a deeper exploration of the themes of despair and trusting to Hope. And how can one not tremble watching the more fully exposed battle between Gandalf and the Balrog in the Two Towers?</p>
<p>Jackson&#8217;s chief mistake was the attempt at converting the story into what I have heard referred to again and again as a battle between good and evil, read as between good characters and bad characters.  That&#8217;s not Tolkien&#8217;s story, but more than enough remains of the original to whet the appetite of a world hungering for something real.  I completely understand Christopher Tolkien&#8217;s reluctance, nonetheless.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/17/tolkien-absorbed-in-absurdity/comment-page-1/#comment-87267</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 20:05:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55644#comment-87267</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[nobody.really: 
One can point to several examples:
1. The fact that the &quot;wise&quot; (i.e., Saruman, Sauron, Denethor) do not recognize power (salvation) in the humble (the Hobbits).
2. Gandalf&#039;s &quot;resurrection&quot; as &quot;Gandalf the White&quot;
3. &quot;Lembas&quot; or &quot;waybread&quot; is an allusion to the Eucharist (so Tolkien tells us in his letters - &quot;waybread&quot; was an old English name for the Eurcharist).
4. Galadriel is a figure or type of the Virgin Mary and the light she brings to those &quot;in dark places.&quot; (This allusion is, unfortunately, greatly obscured in the movie.)
5. All evil creatures in ME are merely corruptions and &quot;mockeries&quot; of the good things created by Illuvatar, the one creator-God.  
6.  Perhaps most importantly, evil and its great power is overcome not by more power but by self-sacrifice and love.  As a corrolary to this, evil is self-destructive (see Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, I, 48).  Thus, Sauron is mostly undone by his own blindness, assuming that his opponents would choose using his Ring against him and not destroying it and, on a smaller scale, we see the orcs of Shagrat and Gorbag destroy each other due to their greed in Cirith Ungol, thus alllowing Sam and Frodo to escape into Morder.

I could go on and on.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nobody.really:<br />
One can point to several examples:<br />
1. The fact that the &#8220;wise&#8221; (i.e., Saruman, Sauron, Denethor) do not recognize power (salvation) in the humble (the Hobbits).<br />
2. Gandalf&#8217;s &#8220;resurrection&#8221; as &#8220;Gandalf the White&#8221;<br />
3. &#8220;Lembas&#8221; or &#8220;waybread&#8221; is an allusion to the Eucharist (so Tolkien tells us in his letters &#8211; &#8220;waybread&#8221; was an old English name for the Eurcharist).<br />
4. Galadriel is a figure or type of the Virgin Mary and the light she brings to those &#8220;in dark places.&#8221; (This allusion is, unfortunately, greatly obscured in the movie.)<br />
5. All evil creatures in ME are merely corruptions and &#8220;mockeries&#8221; of the good things created by Illuvatar, the one creator-God.<br />
6.  Perhaps most importantly, evil and its great power is overcome not by more power but by self-sacrifice and love.  As a corrolary to this, evil is self-destructive (see Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, I, 48).  Thus, Sauron is mostly undone by his own blindness, assuming that his opponents would choose using his Ring against him and not destroying it and, on a smaller scale, we see the orcs of Shagrat and Gorbag destroy each other due to their greed in Cirith Ungol, thus alllowing Sam and Frodo to escape into Morder.</p>
<p>I could go on and on.</p>
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		<title>By: nobody.really</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/17/tolkien-absorbed-in-absurdity/comment-page-1/#comment-87260</link>
		<dc:creator>nobody.really</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 19:10:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55644#comment-87260</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Perhaps you should do a little outside reading on Tolkien. I’d start with Joseph Pearce and Bradley Birzer, Jr, but you could also try Stratford Caldecott and Peter J. Kreeft.

All of them and others have written plenty on Tolkien’s Catholic world-view or philosophy, and any of them is capable of explaining that millions of unsuspecting fans of the books – and to a lesser extent, the movies – have been unknowingly embracing with enthusiasm Catholic concepts, ideas, virtues, and more.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Edified to hear it. I&#039;d be even more edified by examples -- ideally, examples of Catholic concepts, ideas, and virtues reflected in the books but not the films.

For instance, I know Jackson deviate from the books by enhancing the roles of women; does that count?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Perhaps you should do a little outside reading on Tolkien. I’d start with Joseph Pearce and Bradley Birzer, Jr, but you could also try Stratford Caldecott and Peter J. Kreeft.</p>
<p>All of them and others have written plenty on Tolkien’s Catholic world-view or philosophy, and any of them is capable of explaining that millions of unsuspecting fans of the books – and to a lesser extent, the movies – have been unknowingly embracing with enthusiasm Catholic concepts, ideas, virtues, and more.</p></blockquote>
<p>Edified to hear it. I&#8217;d be even more edified by examples &#8212; ideally, examples of Catholic concepts, ideas, and virtues reflected in the books but not the films.</p>
<p>For instance, I know Jackson deviate from the books by enhancing the roles of women; does that count?</p>
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		<title>By: jason taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/17/tolkien-absorbed-in-absurdity/comment-page-1/#comment-87243</link>
		<dc:creator>jason taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 17:18:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55644#comment-87243</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Would people quit talking about &quot;commercialization&quot;. That is absurd occupational snobbery toward merchants. Commercialization has been one of the creators of civilization, perhaps THE creator of civilization. And a world ruled by gold is a far more pleasant place when all is said, then the old world ruled by iron.

More to the point, we wouldn&#039;t have Tolkien in the first place were it not for &quot;Commercialization&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would people quit talking about &#8220;commercialization&#8221;. That is absurd occupational snobbery toward merchants. Commercialization has been one of the creators of civilization, perhaps THE creator of civilization. And a world ruled by gold is a far more pleasant place when all is said, then the old world ruled by iron.</p>
<p>More to the point, we wouldn&#8217;t have Tolkien in the first place were it not for &#8220;Commercialization&#8221;.</p>
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