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	<title>Comments on: Reading Wendell Berry on Marriage</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/18/wendell-berrys-changed-mind-on-marriage/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 19 May 2013 01:21:20 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: John Howard</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/18/wendell-berrys-changed-mind-on-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-87511</link>
		<dc:creator>John Howard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2013 18:52:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55773#comment-87511</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Berry is wrong to compare same-sex couples to childless marriages, the correct analogy is to siblings and other couples that are not ALLOWED to have children. Same-sex couples should not be allowed or approved to have children together, which would require some kind of genetic modification similar to the GMO agriculture that Berry is known for opposing. Just as he would advocate for organic natural agriculture over genetic engineered food, he should advocate for natural reproduction over genetically engineered people. Same-sex couples could reproduce, just like siblings could reproduce, but it would be unethical and bad public policy in each case.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Berry is wrong to compare same-sex couples to childless marriages, the correct analogy is to siblings and other couples that are not ALLOWED to have children. Same-sex couples should not be allowed or approved to have children together, which would require some kind of genetic modification similar to the GMO agriculture that Berry is known for opposing. Just as he would advocate for organic natural agriculture over genetic engineered food, he should advocate for natural reproduction over genetically engineered people. Same-sex couples could reproduce, just like siblings could reproduce, but it would be unethical and bad public policy in each case.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Payne</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/18/wendell-berrys-changed-mind-on-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-87498</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2013 15:51:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55773#comment-87498</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Berry&#039;s recent comments are probably regrettable (I have not studied them in any depth), but what is truly regrettable is that they have caused some conservatives to dismiss him.  Please, please go read &quot;Life Is a Miracle.&quot;  You will find the &quot;real&quot; Wendell Berry, and you will appreciate him.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Berry&#8217;s recent comments are probably regrettable (I have not studied them in any depth), but what is truly regrettable is that they have caused some conservatives to dismiss him.  Please, please go read &#8220;Life Is a Miracle.&#8221;  You will find the &#8220;real&#8221; Wendell Berry, and you will appreciate him.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/18/wendell-berrys-changed-mind-on-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-87490</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2013 14:23:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55773#comment-87490</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Berry is a wonderful writer. He can speak for himself. Here are some quotes from his talk at Georgetown.

&quot;Jesus talked of hating your neighbor as tantamount to hating God, and yet some Christians hate their neighbors by policy and are busy hunting biblical justifications for doing so. Are they not perverts in the fullest and fairest sense of that term? 

&quot;If it can be argued that homosexual marriage is not reproductive and is therefore unnatural and should be forbidden on that account, must we not argue that childless marriages are unnatural and should be annulled?&quot; he asked.

&quot;One may find the sexual practices of homosexuals to be unattractive or displeasing and therefore unnatural, but anything that can be done in that line by homosexuals can be done and is done by heterosexuals. Do we need a legal remedy for this? Would conservative Christians like a small government bureau to inspect, approve and certify their sexual behavior? Would they like a colorful tattoo verifying government approval on the rumps of lawfully copulating parties? We have the technology, after all, to monitor everybody&#039;s sexual behavior, but so far as I can see so eager an interest in other people&#039;s private intimacy is either prurient or totalitarian or both.&quot;

&quot;The oddest of the strategies to condemn and isolate homosexuals is to propose that homosexual marriage is opposed to and a threat to heterosexual marriage, as if the marriage market is about to be cornered and monopolized by homosexuals. If this is not industrial capitalist paranoia, it at least follows the pattern of industrial capitalist competitiveness. We must destroy the competition. If somebody else wants what you&#039;ve got, from money to marriage, you must not hesitate to use the government--small of course--to keep them from getting it.&quot;

&quot;Heterosexual marriage does not need defending. It only needs to be...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Berry is a wonderful writer. He can speak for himself. Here are some quotes from his talk at Georgetown.</p>
<p>&#8220;Jesus talked of hating your neighbor as tantamount to hating God, and yet some Christians hate their neighbors by policy and are busy hunting biblical justifications for doing so. Are they not perverts in the fullest and fairest sense of that term? </p>
<p>&#8220;If it can be argued that homosexual marriage is not reproductive and is therefore unnatural and should be forbidden on that account, must we not argue that childless marriages are unnatural and should be annulled?&#8221; he asked.</p>
<p>&#8220;One may find the sexual practices of homosexuals to be unattractive or displeasing and therefore unnatural, but anything that can be done in that line by homosexuals can be done and is done by heterosexuals. Do we need a legal remedy for this? Would conservative Christians like a small government bureau to inspect, approve and certify their sexual behavior? Would they like a colorful tattoo verifying government approval on the rumps of lawfully copulating parties? We have the technology, after all, to monitor everybody&#8217;s sexual behavior, but so far as I can see so eager an interest in other people&#8217;s private intimacy is either prurient or totalitarian or both.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;The oddest of the strategies to condemn and isolate homosexuals is to propose that homosexual marriage is opposed to and a threat to heterosexual marriage, as if the marriage market is about to be cornered and monopolized by homosexuals. If this is not industrial capitalist paranoia, it at least follows the pattern of industrial capitalist competitiveness. We must destroy the competition. If somebody else wants what you&#8217;ve got, from money to marriage, you must not hesitate to use the government&#8211;small of course&#8211;to keep them from getting it.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Heterosexual marriage does not need defending. It only needs to be&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Brad M</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/18/wendell-berrys-changed-mind-on-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-87447</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 22:25:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55773#comment-87447</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well said by Jon and Steve.  I had no idea that Wendell Berry had written such AWESOME stuff on marriage!  I&#039;m especially impressed by that first bit, but I think everything quoted here was definitely more focused on humanity / sexuality / community / intimacy as it was designed to function in a cohesive whole... and less on the legal approach to marriage in the USA in 2013.

On another note: I happen to agree wholeheartedly with Wendell&#039;s point about &quot;the division of sexual energy&quot;... and I don&#039;t think my own approach to that whole discussion is quasi-Catholic at all.  That&#039;s another topic for another time, though.

Great, thought provoking article - thanks Jake!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said by Jon and Steve.  I had no idea that Wendell Berry had written such AWESOME stuff on marriage!  I&#8217;m especially impressed by that first bit, but I think everything quoted here was definitely more focused on humanity / sexuality / community / intimacy as it was designed to function in a cohesive whole&#8230; and less on the legal approach to marriage in the USA in 2013.</p>
<p>On another note: I happen to agree wholeheartedly with Wendell&#8217;s point about &#8220;the division of sexual energy&#8221;&#8230; and I don&#8217;t think my own approach to that whole discussion is quasi-Catholic at all.  That&#8217;s another topic for another time, though.</p>
<p>Great, thought provoking article &#8211; thanks Jake!</p>
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		<title>By: Wendell Berry on marriage &#171; Family Scholars</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/18/wendell-berrys-changed-mind-on-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-87441</link>
		<dc:creator>Wendell Berry on marriage &#171; Family Scholars</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 22:00:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55773#comment-87441</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] If you are a Wendell Berry fan (I am), at First Things several contributors are discussing, and posting excerpts from, Berry&#8217;s writing on marriage, in light of his endorsement of gay marriage.  You can jump in here. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] If you are a Wendell Berry fan (I am), at First Things several contributors are discussing, and posting excerpts from, Berry&#8217;s writing on marriage, in light of his endorsement of gay marriage.  You can jump in here. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Allison</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/18/wendell-berrys-changed-mind-on-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-87419</link>
		<dc:creator>Allison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 19:00:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55773#comment-87419</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;The Berry of this recent interview seems to have a different understanding of marriage, one that is less concerned with fertility and the relationship between sexuality and agriculture and more concerned with lifelong loyalty and commitment.&quot;

That&#039;s called &quot;personal growth&quot; and &quot;maturity.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The Berry of this recent interview seems to have a different understanding of marriage, one that is less concerned with fertility and the relationship between sexuality and agriculture and more concerned with lifelong loyalty and commitment.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s called &#8220;personal growth&#8221; and &#8220;maturity.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Matt J.</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/18/wendell-berrys-changed-mind-on-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-87412</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt J.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 18:10:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55773#comment-87412</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for combing through and finding these excerpts. I&#039;ve been a fan of Berry&#039;s work for exactly the sorts of passages you mentioned. I was surprised when I heard about his most recent comments. I&#039;d only ever read his old stuff.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for combing through and finding these excerpts. I&#8217;ve been a fan of Berry&#8217;s work for exactly the sorts of passages you mentioned. I was surprised when I heard about his most recent comments. I&#8217;d only ever read his old stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Billingsley</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/18/wendell-berrys-changed-mind-on-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-87411</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Billingsley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 18:07:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55773#comment-87411</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It could just be that Berry, like all of us from time to time if we are not careful - simply acquiesced to the temptation to express his distaste for a particular group of people (in this case Christians who oppose same-sex marriage) with a sad mixture of straw man reasoning, angry labeling and cheap rhetoric.  I think also - again, like all of us, isn&#039;t nearly as consistent in his thinking and speaking as he might think he is.

I admire Berry&#039;s literary writing (my sum total of reading his work is a few of the Port William novels/stories) - but his rant was just that - a rant - pretty much devoid of reasoning, nuance and charity.  Just sad.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It could just be that Berry, like all of us from time to time if we are not careful &#8211; simply acquiesced to the temptation to express his distaste for a particular group of people (in this case Christians who oppose same-sex marriage) with a sad mixture of straw man reasoning, angry labeling and cheap rhetoric.  I think also &#8211; again, like all of us, isn&#8217;t nearly as consistent in his thinking and speaking as he might think he is.</p>
<p>I admire Berry&#8217;s literary writing (my sum total of reading his work is a few of the Port William novels/stories) &#8211; but his rant was just that &#8211; a rant &#8211; pretty much devoid of reasoning, nuance and charity.  Just sad.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve S.</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/18/wendell-berrys-changed-mind-on-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-87408</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 17:56:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55773#comment-87408</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Is Berry operating on implicit distinction between what is good and what ought to be legal?  As I read his recent comments, I get the sense that he is talking not about what is ideal or even good for human relationships, but about what kinds of official relationships might be granted legal status, but also about how Christians ought to respond personally to homosexuals who desire legal status.  For example, he states that that, if gay marriage is not allowable by virtue of its sterility, then childless marriage ought to be disallowed on the same grounds.  It&#039;s an argument about what should or should not be legally regulated.  

Naturally, the questions are related, but in none of your quoted passages does Berry directly address marriage as a legal agreement sanctioned by the government.  (He says much about &quot;community,&quot; but that is not the same as government sanction.)  Berry has always had something of a libertarian streak, and while it does not dominate his political rhetoric, it is often present as a silent premise.  Berry&#039;s recent statements on marriage did not surprise me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is Berry operating on implicit distinction between what is good and what ought to be legal?  As I read his recent comments, I get the sense that he is talking not about what is ideal or even good for human relationships, but about what kinds of official relationships might be granted legal status, but also about how Christians ought to respond personally to homosexuals who desire legal status.  For example, he states that that, if gay marriage is not allowable by virtue of its sterility, then childless marriage ought to be disallowed on the same grounds.  It&#8217;s an argument about what should or should not be legally regulated.  </p>
<p>Naturally, the questions are related, but in none of your quoted passages does Berry directly address marriage as a legal agreement sanctioned by the government.  (He says much about &#8220;community,&#8221; but that is not the same as government sanction.)  Berry has always had something of a libertarian streak, and while it does not dominate his political rhetoric, it is often present as a silent premise.  Berry&#8217;s recent statements on marriage did not surprise me.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon A</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/18/wendell-berrys-changed-mind-on-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-87407</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 17:50:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=55773#comment-87407</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It might be helpful for you to reference the interview. The one I read most recently (held at Georgetown College), seemed to indicate a very different thing. Berry was talking about the relationship between politics, the state, and marriage, and seemed to be critiquing a) the construction of marriage as primarily a legal institution b) the hypocrisy of attacking the legal basis of homosexual marriage but not the legal changes encouraging divorce and cohabitation and c) the way that Christian advocacy of state intervention in marriage adopts the implicit state violence and will-to-power of those who crucified Christ, and not the non-violent, loving persuasion of Christ.

I&#039;m not saying I agree with Berry on those points, but all of them fit with an interpretation that Berry hasn&#039;t changed his mind about marriage per se (he says in the interview, &quot;Marriage doesn&#039;t need to be defended; it needs to be practiced&quot;) but that he is growing more outspoken about the conflict between the ends and means of Christians in advocating for traditional marriage and his sense that they have compromised their ends by their means (state violence and conflictual politics).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It might be helpful for you to reference the interview. The one I read most recently (held at Georgetown College), seemed to indicate a very different thing. Berry was talking about the relationship between politics, the state, and marriage, and seemed to be critiquing a) the construction of marriage as primarily a legal institution b) the hypocrisy of attacking the legal basis of homosexual marriage but not the legal changes encouraging divorce and cohabitation and c) the way that Christian advocacy of state intervention in marriage adopts the implicit state violence and will-to-power of those who crucified Christ, and not the non-violent, loving persuasion of Christ.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying I agree with Berry on those points, but all of them fit with an interpretation that Berry hasn&#8217;t changed his mind about marriage per se (he says in the interview, &#8220;Marriage doesn&#8217;t need to be defended; it needs to be practiced&#8221;) but that he is growing more outspoken about the conflict between the ends and means of Christians in advocating for traditional marriage and his sense that they have compromised their ends by their means (state violence and conflictual politics).</p>
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