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	<title>Comments on: Our Unmet Friends</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/25/march-for-life-unmet-friends/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 01:44:12 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Reta</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/25/march-for-life-unmet-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-88425</link>
		<dc:creator>Reta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2013 22:16:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=56266#comment-88425</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Perhaps there ought to be a separate discussion on unwanted and aborted children..but the reason I posted my piece about the book written addressing &#039;different&#039; children was to highlight the plight of the unwanted Downs Syndrome babies and those found to have handicaps before birth.

Down’s is a chromosomal disorder – but not a life-threatening condition....as are several others that babies are found to have before birth. Today, over 90 per cent of babies found to have Down’s in antenatal tests are routinely aborted.....this is outrageous.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps there ought to be a separate discussion on unwanted and aborted children..but the reason I posted my piece about the book written addressing &#8216;different&#8217; children was to highlight the plight of the unwanted Downs Syndrome babies and those found to have handicaps before birth.</p>
<p>Down’s is a chromosomal disorder – but not a life-threatening condition&#8230;.as are several others that babies are found to have before birth. Today, over 90 per cent of babies found to have Down’s in antenatal tests are routinely aborted&#8230;..this is outrageous.</p>
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		<title>By: Bret Lythgoe</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/25/march-for-life-unmet-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-88343</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret Lythgoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2013 23:08:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=56266#comment-88343</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi David Nickol, thanks for your comments. I&#039;ve always been impressed with the intelligence and moral insight that you bring to these threads (even when I disagree). I&#039;m sorry to hear about what your mother went through. The priest&#039;s instruction was  stunningly insensitive and unkind. Even if he was well intentioned, he showed a great lack of empathy, and concern. perhaps someone could retort that burying the embryo in the ground is no better, but he/she would be wrong. We associate toliets with waste,things to be rid of that we dislike.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi David Nickol, thanks for your comments. I&#8217;ve always been impressed with the intelligence and moral insight that you bring to these threads (even when I disagree). I&#8217;m sorry to hear about what your mother went through. The priest&#8217;s instruction was  stunningly insensitive and unkind. Even if he was well intentioned, he showed a great lack of empathy, and concern. perhaps someone could retort that burying the embryo in the ground is no better, but he/she would be wrong. We associate toliets with waste,things to be rid of that we dislike.</p>
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		<title>By: A Reader</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/25/march-for-life-unmet-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-88333</link>
		<dc:creator>A Reader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2013 20:29:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=56266#comment-88333</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David Nickol issues a challenge to those of us who revere the lives of unborn children.  Once again he reveals an inconsistency in an aspect of Catholic thinking and practice and calls us to give an account of ourselves.  

Human persons in early stages of development whose lives are lost to early miscarriage are actually (and horribly now that I think about it) discarded as &quot;medical waste.&quot;  Am I correct that we treat worn American flags with more respect?

I am truly saddened and, like Mr. Nickol, shocked.  I cannot explain my complete neglect or my failure to understand the importance of this issue

Sally Rogers&#039; prayer for &quot;the dead who have no one to pray for them&quot; will be my prayer after today.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Nickol issues a challenge to those of us who revere the lives of unborn children.  Once again he reveals an inconsistency in an aspect of Catholic thinking and practice and calls us to give an account of ourselves.  </p>
<p>Human persons in early stages of development whose lives are lost to early miscarriage are actually (and horribly now that I think about it) discarded as &#8220;medical waste.&#8221;  Am I correct that we treat worn American flags with more respect?</p>
<p>I am truly saddened and, like Mr. Nickol, shocked.  I cannot explain my complete neglect or my failure to understand the importance of this issue</p>
<p>Sally Rogers&#8217; prayer for &#8220;the dead who have no one to pray for them&#8221; will be my prayer after today.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/25/march-for-life-unmet-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-88323</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2013 19:03:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=56266#comment-88323</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We don&#039;t mourn their loss of life, their lost opportunities. We mourn that their lives were not able to touch us and compel us to love. We mourn that we committed horrors against them. Mortal life isn&#039;t the end.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We don&#8217;t mourn their loss of life, their lost opportunities. We mourn that their lives were not able to touch us and compel us to love. We mourn that we committed horrors against them. Mortal life isn&#8217;t the end.</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/25/march-for-life-unmet-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-88309</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2013 16:13:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=56266#comment-88309</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;I think that pentemom has provided an excellent answer to the question you raise in your last sentence, on your first comment.&lt;/i&gt;

Bret Lythgoe,

I liked pentamom&#039;s observation, &quot;To the extent that we fail to consider those lost unknowingly through natural death, that is our shame . . . .&quot; And I agree that the magnitude of death of the unborn by natural causes has no bearing whatsoever on the ethics of abortion. I also appreciated Sally Thomas&#039;s concept of &quot;the dead who have no one to pray for them.&quot; I appreciate Twin Mom&#039;s support and comments, and I think there is actually a lot of agreement on this issue.

I remember my mother told me, long ago, but also long after it happened, that she once thought she &lt;i&gt;might&lt;/i&gt; have had a very early miscarriage. She called our parish priest and asked him what she should do with the tiny mass that might possibly have been a very early embryo. He told her to flush it down the toilet. I was shocked, and it seemed clear to me from the way she told the story that it still upset her years after it happened.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I think that pentemom has provided an excellent answer to the question you raise in your last sentence, on your first comment.</i></p>
<p>Bret Lythgoe,</p>
<p>I liked pentamom&#8217;s observation, &#8220;To the extent that we fail to consider those lost unknowingly through natural death, that is our shame . . . .&#8221; And I agree that the magnitude of death of the unborn by natural causes has no bearing whatsoever on the ethics of abortion. I also appreciated Sally Thomas&#8217;s concept of &#8220;the dead who have no one to pray for them.&#8221; I appreciate Twin Mom&#8217;s support and comments, and I think there is actually a lot of agreement on this issue.</p>
<p>I remember my mother told me, long ago, but also long after it happened, that she once thought she <i>might</i> have had a very early miscarriage. She called our parish priest and asked him what she should do with the tiny mass that might possibly have been a very early embryo. He told her to flush it down the toilet. I was shocked, and it seemed clear to me from the way she told the story that it still upset her years after it happened.</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/25/march-for-life-unmet-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-88308</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2013 15:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=56266#comment-88308</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Frankly, your comment leaves the impression that you don’t understand the moral distinction. At all.&lt;/i&gt;

CV,

I am sorry to hear of the loss you suffered. I think one of the side benefits of the pro-life movement&#039;s emphasis on the humanity of the unborn is greater sensitivity to the feelings of mothers (and fathers) who lose a child through miscarriage. 

There are obvious differences between an unborn infant dying of natural causes and being deliberately killed. However, I am not sure what the &quot;moral distinction&quot; you cite refers to in terms of the unborn themselves. They are not moral agents. If life (personhood) begins at conception, an unborn child who dies of natural causes, no matter how early, is no less of a person than an unborn child who dies by induced abortion. There is occasional talk of declaring the victims of abortion to be martyrs, as if somehow they did something of merit that the unborn who died of natural causes did not. But this makes no sense. 

For those who oppose abortion, there may be value in calling attention to the magnitude of the issue by speculating how the world might be different if these children had been born. But I am struck by how easily changing just a few words in Katrina Trinko&#039;s article could transform it into a piece about the unborn who died of natural causes without even the mothers being aware of their existence. Are they so unworthy of attention and discussion?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Frankly, your comment leaves the impression that you don’t understand the moral distinction. At all.</i></p>
<p>CV,</p>
<p>I am sorry to hear of the loss you suffered. I think one of the side benefits of the pro-life movement&#8217;s emphasis on the humanity of the unborn is greater sensitivity to the feelings of mothers (and fathers) who lose a child through miscarriage. </p>
<p>There are obvious differences between an unborn infant dying of natural causes and being deliberately killed. However, I am not sure what the &#8220;moral distinction&#8221; you cite refers to in terms of the unborn themselves. They are not moral agents. If life (personhood) begins at conception, an unborn child who dies of natural causes, no matter how early, is no less of a person than an unborn child who dies by induced abortion. There is occasional talk of declaring the victims of abortion to be martyrs, as if somehow they did something of merit that the unborn who died of natural causes did not. But this makes no sense. </p>
<p>For those who oppose abortion, there may be value in calling attention to the magnitude of the issue by speculating how the world might be different if these children had been born. But I am struck by how easily changing just a few words in Katrina Trinko&#8217;s article could transform it into a piece about the unborn who died of natural causes without even the mothers being aware of their existence. Are they so unworthy of attention and discussion?</p>
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		<title>By: Twin Mom</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/25/march-for-life-unmet-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-88297</link>
		<dc:creator>Twin Mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2013 05:34:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=56266#comment-88297</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mr Nickol,
As a woman who was aware of her recurrent early pregnancy losses, I agree with your comment. I later delivered a baby (early) with a lethal abnormality and I did not find the grief process to be particularly different.

I appreciate your comment and agree with you. 

I also find statistics about how many more people the US would have without abortion disturbing- many abortions are to women who go on to have subsequent pregnancies and research strongly suggests that the total number of children a woman has doesn&#039;t change due to abortion any more than it changes due to miscarriage.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr Nickol,<br />
As a woman who was aware of her recurrent early pregnancy losses, I agree with your comment. I later delivered a baby (early) with a lethal abnormality and I did not find the grief process to be particularly different.</p>
<p>I appreciate your comment and agree with you. </p>
<p>I also find statistics about how many more people the US would have without abortion disturbing- many abortions are to women who go on to have subsequent pregnancies and research strongly suggests that the total number of children a woman has doesn&#8217;t change due to abortion any more than it changes due to miscarriage.</p>
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		<title>By: Bret Lythgoe</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/25/march-for-life-unmet-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-88292</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret Lythgoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2013 04:00:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=56266#comment-88292</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi David Nickol, thanks for the clarification. I think that pentemom has provided an excellent answer to the question you raise in your last sentence, on your first comment.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi David Nickol, thanks for the clarification. I think that pentemom has provided an excellent answer to the question you raise in your last sentence, on your first comment.</p>
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		<title>By: Bret Lythgoe</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/25/march-for-life-unmet-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-88291</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret Lythgoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2013 03:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=56266#comment-88291</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Pentemom, thank you. I think you&#039;re right that the deliberate killing of those we know will cause us  more mourning than of the natural deaths of those we cannot know about. I also agree with you concerning the purpose of funerals.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Pentemom, thank you. I think you&#8217;re right that the deliberate killing of those we know will cause us  more mourning than of the natural deaths of those we cannot know about. I also agree with you concerning the purpose of funerals.</p>
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		<title>By: Sally Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/25/march-for-life-unmet-friends/comment-page-1/#comment-88290</link>
		<dc:creator>Sally Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2013 03:50:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=56266#comment-88290</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[But this whole species of grief -- grief for natural deaths --  falls in a different arena, it seems to me, from the grief we experience when someone is murdered. When those twenty children were murdered in Connecticut, it was a national outrage in a way that the deaths of twenty children from cancer or heart defects would not have been. Natural death is a tragedy, but often enough it&#039;s a private, family one, not something people stand around holding placards on city streets to mark. People largely don&#039;t react to natural death as something society should do something about. Murder, on the other hand, especially legally sanctioned murder of innocent people, is and should be a matter for public outrage. I simply don&#039;t see that pro-life people are being inconsistent in not demonstrating against miscarriage as well.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But this whole species of grief &#8212; grief for natural deaths &#8212;  falls in a different arena, it seems to me, from the grief we experience when someone is murdered. When those twenty children were murdered in Connecticut, it was a national outrage in a way that the deaths of twenty children from cancer or heart defects would not have been. Natural death is a tragedy, but often enough it&#8217;s a private, family one, not something people stand around holding placards on city streets to mark. People largely don&#8217;t react to natural death as something society should do something about. Murder, on the other hand, especially legally sanctioned murder of innocent people, is and should be a matter for public outrage. I simply don&#8217;t see that pro-life people are being inconsistent in not demonstrating against miscarriage as well.</p>
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