Your speculation about the Roman Catholic Church and attempted comparison to Judaism loses sight of the fact that while God chastised and corrected the Jewish people many, many times, He never destroyed them completely, nor has He, to this day, ended His covenantal Love relationship with them.

The destruction of the Temple, Diasporas, Exiles, Holocaust/pogroms have only served to spread Judaism throughout the world and make its peoples’ accomplishments more miraculous.

The only thing capable of destroying the 1.18 billion person, worldwide Catholic Church is something that eradicated all of humanity.

I’d like to hear more about that.”

Nobody.really, check out a book written by a former journalist for the St. Louis Post Dispatch:

The New Faithful: Why Young Adults Are Embracing Christian Orthodoxy by Colleen Carroll Campbell (Sep 1, 2002)

I would also second the opinion that things are getting better in the American Catholic Church. I went through Catholic grade & high schools in the 80s and 90s–when good catechesis was hard to come by–and finished a graduate degree in theology in 2006. Having spent the last seven years teaching in Catholic high schools, I can personally attest that this generation of adolescents is much better taught and more devout than was my generation.

Vocations to priesthood and religious life are booming in most orthodox dioceses and orders. The number of 20-40 something Catholics who’ve ditched contraception and embraced the Gospel of Life is also up (in this archdiocese, at least). I personally know at least 11 families with 9+ children, and going strong. Those committed to religion will win the demographic battle long-term if for no other reason than that of outbreeding and out-adopting more selfish, secular couples.

## Or possibly: long after the Catholic Church is “consigned to the dustbin”, God will have a Church even so. STM the CC is mistaken to take those words as a guarantee of survival no matter what – the danger in doing so, is that God’s Righteousness is lost sight of. That is what the Jews did – they were so sure that the Temple guaranteed the Presence of God’s Name in Jerusalem, that they forgot that they, as the covenant people, were obliged to be a holy people. Jeremiah had his work cut out insisting that Zion was not inviolable when it was filled with wickedness. The Exile shows God sweeping away king, Temple, city, & people because of their sins.

If God can do that, why can He not destroy a sinful Church ? It does not follow that He will not have one – for He can raise one up from the stones. Revelation 2 & 3 seem appropriate. Or is this approach too naive for words ?

HOWEVER, persecution from without (see Japan in the 1600s, Albania in the mid-20th century, the Eastern Churches during and after the Muslim invasions of a millenium ago in many areas) and severe rot from with (see Ireland today?) can effectively destroy it within a given society. Where is the Church in Saudi Arabia, where once Christians worshipped many centuries ago? Where, effectively, is it in large parts of Europe now, especially the Scandanavian regions?

The Church is at basic risk now of losing its tenuous toehold in Western society and being washed away there. One priest in hiding does not a Church make in any useful or meaningful sense (to claim it does is to adopt a Protestant understanding of Christianity, I would argue). One can still find scattered pagans (“official pagans,” I guess one might say) in Europe today, but ancient paganism such as the early Church encountered is gone forever as a cultural force.

Africa, Asia, the Indian Subcontinent may well become the new home of the Church, and hurray for that. But, at the same time, we could easily see the Church become as small and marginalized in our culture as would be any number of fringe sects which Catholics have always dismissed as irrelevant. Whatever theological solace one might take from there still be “some Catholics here and many elsewhere outside the West,” this would be a world-historic tragedy, and yet it could easily happen. So much the worse for the world? Sure. But even more so for the Church.

So don’t dismiss Rod’s concerns too quickly. The next Pope is but a small piece of the solution to an eopchal challenge the Church is confronting.

Thank you for your simple responses which contain complex truths.

We all wait for the Second Coming when the Church will, indeed, be “triumphant”. In the meantime “militant” means we have to deal with adversity.

IMHO, the Church flourishes in times of adversity. Who is to say that a smaller, more orthodox Church is not better for us who inhabit it? We are the Church; as sinners and imperfect in all regards, we are responsible for our own sins. Let G-d handle the rest……in His own time.

Perhaps just another way of agreeing with St Paul: ‘we hold this treasure in earthen vessels’.

jJ.

The Church in the West has not been cherished, so we may well lose it: when God would discipline us, He sometimes removes the Church.

When Enver Hoxha’s regime fell in officially atheist Albania, a lone Catholic priest emerged from hiding. The Church survived Hoxha’s regime.

Rod Dreher is what used to be called a “lapsed Catholic.” The Church will not be rescued by the advice of lapsed Catholics or laicized priests. Rod Dreher is utterly beside the point for the Church in America. But I wish him well.

Now, a detail–the “atomizing effect of market capitalism”? What does this mean? And describe to me the preferred alternative. If this means that in a market system each person makes his own choices in the marketplace, including where and how he makes his own productive contribution, then I’m for atomism.