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	<title>Comments on: Staying Home from the Conclave</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/03/02/staying-home-from-the-conclave/</link>
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		<title>By: Art Deco</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/03/02/staying-home-from-the-conclave/comment-page-1/#comment-92100</link>
		<dc:creator>Art Deco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Mar 2013 22:19:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=58487#comment-92100</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;But it does constitute morally reprehensible behavior that’s consistent with what a psychopath could do. &lt;/i&gt;

It is also consistent with what a large swath of humanity would do.

A 33 year old man shows up in my office and tells me Fr. So-and-So fondled him 19 years earlier.  There is not much point in telling law enforcement.  The case is non-justiciable due to the passage of time.  Talking about psychopathy in that set of circumstances seems gratuitous.  

Keith O&#039;Brien apparently hit on seminarians.  I could call him a psychopath, but pervert-not-in-complete-command of himself seems more appropriate.  

--

All this babble about psychopathy is a distraction from the main task: assessing the real personal shortcomings of the hierarchy at various points in time and asking how we recruit and form a priest corps not composed of what Fr. Mankowski calls &#039;tames in clerical culture&#039; and what Fr. Kelly called &#039;foxes&#039;.  It is doubtful psychopaths are your problem.  Vapid men, appearance oriented men, men who cannot make decisions, manipulable men would be your problem.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>But it does constitute morally reprehensible behavior that’s consistent with what a psychopath could do. </i></p>
<p>It is also consistent with what a large swath of humanity would do.</p>
<p>A 33 year old man shows up in my office and tells me Fr. So-and-So fondled him 19 years earlier.  There is not much point in telling law enforcement.  The case is non-justiciable due to the passage of time.  Talking about psychopathy in that set of circumstances seems gratuitous.  </p>
<p>Keith O&#8217;Brien apparently hit on seminarians.  I could call him a psychopath, but pervert-not-in-complete-command of himself seems more appropriate.  </p>
<p>&#8211;</p>
<p>All this babble about psychopathy is a distraction from the main task: assessing the real personal shortcomings of the hierarchy at various points in time and asking how we recruit and form a priest corps not composed of what Fr. Mankowski calls &#8216;tames in clerical culture&#8217; and what Fr. Kelly called &#8216;foxes&#8217;.  It is doubtful psychopaths are your problem.  Vapid men, appearance oriented men, men who cannot make decisions, manipulable men would be your problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Marietta</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/03/02/staying-home-from-the-conclave/comment-page-1/#comment-92039</link>
		<dc:creator>Marietta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Mar 2013 01:53:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=58487#comment-92039</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What you&#039;re saying is perhaps Mahony should be defrocked of his office as cardinal, and I agree.  But as long as he&#039;s Cardinal, he should vote in the conclave (and let&#039;s hope his vote does not determine who wins.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What you&#8217;re saying is perhaps Mahony should be defrocked of his office as cardinal, and I agree.  But as long as he&#8217;s Cardinal, he should vote in the conclave (and let&#8217;s hope his vote does not determine who wins.)</p>
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		<title>By: Bret Lythgoe</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/03/02/staying-home-from-the-conclave/comment-page-1/#comment-92032</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret Lythgoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Mar 2013 23:27:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=58487#comment-92032</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Art Deco: certainly if someone fails to report child abuse this does not necessarily indicate that he or she is a psychopath. But it does constitute morally reprehensible behavior that&#039;s consistent with what a psychopath could do. As I stated, Mahony&#039;s behavior could be explained as due to something else. Mahony&#039;s statements recently seem to show that he doesn&#039;t feel remorse for his negligence. I hope that this is the wrong interpretation. But his statements, at  least the one&#039;s that I&#039;ve seen, seem to reflect a man who considers himself a victim in some way. His only concern should be for the victims of the horrible things the priest under his juristiction did, period. Perhaps he does have concern for them, I hope he does. 

Mohony should have recused himself from going to Rome, to participate in the picking of a new pope, in my opinion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Art Deco: certainly if someone fails to report child abuse this does not necessarily indicate that he or she is a psychopath. But it does constitute morally reprehensible behavior that&#8217;s consistent with what a psychopath could do. As I stated, Mahony&#8217;s behavior could be explained as due to something else. Mahony&#8217;s statements recently seem to show that he doesn&#8217;t feel remorse for his negligence. I hope that this is the wrong interpretation. But his statements, at  least the one&#8217;s that I&#8217;ve seen, seem to reflect a man who considers himself a victim in some way. His only concern should be for the victims of the horrible things the priest under his juristiction did, period. Perhaps he does have concern for them, I hope he does. </p>
<p>Mohony should have recused himself from going to Rome, to participate in the picking of a new pope, in my opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: Art Deco</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/03/02/staying-home-from-the-conclave/comment-page-1/#comment-92026</link>
		<dc:creator>Art Deco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Mar 2013 19:49:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=58487#comment-92026</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bret, Mr. McCreary witnessed a late-middle aged man molesting a child.   He was not altogether sure of what he saw, and he consults with a superior, Mr. Paterno.  Mr. McCreary and Mr. Paterno elect to inform responsible parties within their bureaucratic architecture.   The responsible parties eventually elect to undertake some token measures and let the matter drop.  

Now, I could posit that these men were &#039;psychopaths&#039; or demonstrated &#039;psychopathy&#039;.  However, I would tend to say they exhibit modern bureaucratic behavior and personal interest.  I will wager they liked Jerry Sandusky; two of them were in the same line of work; and the collective discussion left none of them with a visceral sense he was truly responsible.  

Now, very few accusations against priests were made in real time.  In the Diocese of Syracuse, 25 years after the fact was about the median for the whole set (though that includes a large mass of accusations that came out of the woodwork in 2001-04).  Almost none had a third-party witness.  You do not have to be a psychopath to hedge your bets and throw up your hands when confronted with the information set the bishops actually had, though some behaved disgracefully even when they had good information (McCormick, Sheehan, Tschoeppe, Grahmann, Matthiesen, Curtis in Bridgeport, Egan in Bridgeport).  You just have to be a human being.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bret, Mr. McCreary witnessed a late-middle aged man molesting a child.   He was not altogether sure of what he saw, and he consults with a superior, Mr. Paterno.  Mr. McCreary and Mr. Paterno elect to inform responsible parties within their bureaucratic architecture.   The responsible parties eventually elect to undertake some token measures and let the matter drop.  </p>
<p>Now, I could posit that these men were &#8216;psychopaths&#8217; or demonstrated &#8216;psychopathy&#8217;.  However, I would tend to say they exhibit modern bureaucratic behavior and personal interest.  I will wager they liked Jerry Sandusky; two of them were in the same line of work; and the collective discussion left none of them with a visceral sense he was truly responsible.  </p>
<p>Now, very few accusations against priests were made in real time.  In the Diocese of Syracuse, 25 years after the fact was about the median for the whole set (though that includes a large mass of accusations that came out of the woodwork in 2001-04).  Almost none had a third-party witness.  You do not have to be a psychopath to hedge your bets and throw up your hands when confronted with the information set the bishops actually had, though some behaved disgracefully even when they had good information (McCormick, Sheehan, Tschoeppe, Grahmann, Matthiesen, Curtis in Bridgeport, Egan in Bridgeport).  You just have to be a human being.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Ward</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/03/02/staying-home-from-the-conclave/comment-page-1/#comment-92020</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Ward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Mar 2013 18:16:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=58487#comment-92020</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Revision
Wow!! Now I am even more concerned. When when we the flock and perhaps the other Cardinals believe that a Cardinal’s lack of (1) holiness, (2) humility, (3)unrepentance, (4) scandal, (5) compassion for victims and heaven knows what else is not an impediment and cannot trump and order to report to the conclave; perhaps this does say something about the wider Church. You just convinced me to ramp up my prayers in this regard. Thanks. -]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Revision<br />
Wow!! Now I am even more concerned. When when we the flock and perhaps the other Cardinals believe that a Cardinal’s lack of (1) holiness, (2) humility, (3)unrepentance, (4) scandal, (5) compassion for victims and heaven knows what else is not an impediment and cannot trump and order to report to the conclave; perhaps this does say something about the wider Church. You just convinced me to ramp up my prayers in this regard. Thanks. -</p>
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		<title>By: Patt</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/03/02/staying-home-from-the-conclave/comment-page-1/#comment-91989</link>
		<dc:creator>Patt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Mar 2013 03:31:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=58487#comment-91989</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think that since Cardinal Mahony had such faulty judgment to the point of HIDING homosexual priests--(and blaming his mis handling of the situation --on others)--one wonders about his judgment on selecting the next pope. In other words, he does not seem quite trustworthy. So hopefully his vote won&#039;t be the determining vote.
Others feel he has not been adequately punished for the evil he aided and abetted--nor has remorse or shame been shown by him...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that since Cardinal Mahony had such faulty judgment to the point of HIDING homosexual priests&#8211;(and blaming his mis handling of the situation &#8211;on others)&#8211;one wonders about his judgment on selecting the next pope. In other words, he does not seem quite trustworthy. So hopefully his vote won&#8217;t be the determining vote.<br />
Others feel he has not been adequately punished for the evil he aided and abetted&#8211;nor has remorse or shame been shown by him&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Bret Lythgoe</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/03/02/staying-home-from-the-conclave/comment-page-1/#comment-91979</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret Lythgoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Mar 2013 23:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=58487#comment-91979</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Art Deco: I certainly believe that one should have a healthy dose of skepticism concerning Dr. Dutton&#039;s claims. But he does present some interesting evidence that within the clergy (but not just the clergy, he lists the &quot;top ten&#039;&#039; professions that seem to attract the most psychopaths), and it would seem foolish to ignore this data. Dutton argues that psychopathy is on a &quot;spectrum.&#039;&#039; Therefore, there will be varying degrees of symptomology, depending on where the possessor falls on the spectrum (not all, thank God, will be like Adolf Hitler or Ted Bundy).

I could be wrong, but the excerpts from Mahony&#039;s blogs that I&#039;ve seen, show someone who has failed to take responsibility for his actions, a lack of remorse, a lack of concern for the victims of the priest under his juristiction, and a manipulative type of personality. I&#039;m not a psychologist, and these traits could perhaps be explained differently, but they seem consistent with psychopathy. Mahony seems to be concerned with himself, and not the victims. 

For the protection of all, perhaps future priests, (and future leaders of all other religions) should be screened for psychopathic traits, and excluded if the latter seem present.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Art Deco: I certainly believe that one should have a healthy dose of skepticism concerning Dr. Dutton&#8217;s claims. But he does present some interesting evidence that within the clergy (but not just the clergy, he lists the &#8220;top ten&#8221; professions that seem to attract the most psychopaths), and it would seem foolish to ignore this data. Dutton argues that psychopathy is on a &#8220;spectrum.&#8221; Therefore, there will be varying degrees of symptomology, depending on where the possessor falls on the spectrum (not all, thank God, will be like Adolf Hitler or Ted Bundy).</p>
<p>I could be wrong, but the excerpts from Mahony&#8217;s blogs that I&#8217;ve seen, show someone who has failed to take responsibility for his actions, a lack of remorse, a lack of concern for the victims of the priest under his juristiction, and a manipulative type of personality. I&#8217;m not a psychologist, and these traits could perhaps be explained differently, but they seem consistent with psychopathy. Mahony seems to be concerned with himself, and not the victims. </p>
<p>For the protection of all, perhaps future priests, (and future leaders of all other religions) should be screened for psychopathic traits, and excluded if the latter seem present.</p>
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		<title>By: sean</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/03/02/staying-home-from-the-conclave/comment-page-1/#comment-91977</link>
		<dc:creator>sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Mar 2013 22:10:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=58487#comment-91977</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What ever he does it is not a big deal, life is messy, he has got a vote if he wants to go to Rome, At this stage when so many have clearly stated their cases about his actions, his decision to go to to Rome will only really say something about  Cardinal Mahoney not the wider Church]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What ever he does it is not a big deal, life is messy, he has got a vote if he wants to go to Rome, At this stage when so many have clearly stated their cases about his actions, his decision to go to to Rome will only really say something about  Cardinal Mahoney not the wider Church</p>
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		<title>By: Bearing</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/03/02/staying-home-from-the-conclave/comment-page-1/#comment-91971</link>
		<dc:creator>Bearing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Mar 2013 20:56:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=58487#comment-91971</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What do you make of this passage from Universi Dominici Gregis, then?  It&#039;s in paragraph 38:


&quot;All the Cardinal electors, convoked for the election of the new Pope by the Cardinal Dean, or by another Cardinal in his name, are required, in virtue of holy obedience, to obey the announcement of convocation and to proceed to the place designated for this purpose, unless they are hindered by sickness or by some other grave impediment, which however must be recognized as such by the College of Cardinals.&quot;

I read this passage from the &quot;rule book&quot; of the papal conclave promulgated by John Paul II to mean that an individual cardinal does not have the right to determine for himself whether he should stay home or not, except for sickness.  Scandal might constitute a &quot;grave impediment,&quot; but the document seems to require that the rest of the Cardinals agree.

I don&#039;t see why a rule-breaking cardinal should be permitted to break the rule of obedience here either.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What do you make of this passage from Universi Dominici Gregis, then?  It&#8217;s in paragraph 38:</p>
<p>&#8220;All the Cardinal electors, convoked for the election of the new Pope by the Cardinal Dean, or by another Cardinal in his name, are required, in virtue of holy obedience, to obey the announcement of convocation and to proceed to the place designated for this purpose, unless they are hindered by sickness or by some other grave impediment, which however must be recognized as such by the College of Cardinals.&#8221;</p>
<p>I read this passage from the &#8220;rule book&#8221; of the papal conclave promulgated by John Paul II to mean that an individual cardinal does not have the right to determine for himself whether he should stay home or not, except for sickness.  Scandal might constitute a &#8220;grave impediment,&#8221; but the document seems to require that the rest of the Cardinals agree.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see why a rule-breaking cardinal should be permitted to break the rule of obedience here either.</p>
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		<title>By: Marietta</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/03/02/staying-home-from-the-conclave/comment-page-1/#comment-91970</link>
		<dc:creator>Marietta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Mar 2013 20:19:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=58487#comment-91970</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What you&#039;re suggesting is that Mahony should probably stop being a Cardinal at all.  

That&#039;s a completely different issue from being a less-than-holy Cardinal abstaining from the conclave.

Cardinal Mahony is a Cardinal and has a right to vote.  It does not matter whether he&#039;s holy or not.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What you&#8217;re suggesting is that Mahony should probably stop being a Cardinal at all.  </p>
<p>That&#8217;s a completely different issue from being a less-than-holy Cardinal abstaining from the conclave.</p>
<p>Cardinal Mahony is a Cardinal and has a right to vote.  It does not matter whether he&#8217;s holy or not.</p>
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