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	<title>Comments on: Roe, Doe, and Wombless Men</title>
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	<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/03/06/roe-doe-and-wombless-men/</link>
	<description>A First Things Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/03/06/roe-doe-and-wombless-men/comment-page-1/#comment-92410</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Mar 2013 19:53:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=58531#comment-92410</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I completely agree--in focusing more on crisis-pregnancy-care, the pro-life movement can concretely embody a holistic, non-judgmental and non-moralistic, respect for human life. 

  Also, concerning a matter not directly related to abortion, yet directly related to holistic respect for human dignity, too many pro-life Christians are in ignorance, sometimes willful, of the unjust and life-wrecking punishment that child-prisons wreak on troubled inner-city youths.  
The work of Heidi Neumark --a &quot;leftist&quot; Lutheran minister—offers a valuable witness to your point.  Although she hasn&#039;t yet grasped the embodied, integrated, reasoned anthropology that Erika Bachiochi articulates--her charitable work in youth-prisons incarnates an unconditional respect for the dignity of human life.  Of course, the disembodied anthropology that implicitly informs Neumark&#039;s social/political views logistically—in theory-- undermines the value of embodied social-justice work.  Yet, absent an incarnate care for all human life--regardless of whether that life, at any age, is sinful in any sense--a care visibly embodied in Neumark&#039;s work, an integrated and embodied anthropology becomes a moralistic disincarnate set of principles incapable of moving anyone to an unconditional concern for others.

I add only that caritas and reason aren&#039;t opposed--rather, caritas is the highest form of reason.  The eternal Logos desired and loved us before we were anyone and before there was anything.  His desire and love for all his sons and daughters is engrained in the human heart.  The desire and love to give the caritas given us--a desire that is distorted and misunderstood in original-sin--is the natural-law of human existence.  Thus, the logic of human life is a logic of caritas—a logic that moves one to recognize all human life as signs of the infinite Caritas they image.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I completely agree&#8211;in focusing more on crisis-pregnancy-care, the pro-life movement can concretely embody a holistic, non-judgmental and non-moralistic, respect for human life. </p>
<p>  Also, concerning a matter not directly related to abortion, yet directly related to holistic respect for human dignity, too many pro-life Christians are in ignorance, sometimes willful, of the unjust and life-wrecking punishment that child-prisons wreak on troubled inner-city youths.<br />
The work of Heidi Neumark &#8211;a &#8220;leftist&#8221; Lutheran minister—offers a valuable witness to your point.  Although she hasn&#8217;t yet grasped the embodied, integrated, reasoned anthropology that Erika Bachiochi articulates&#8211;her charitable work in youth-prisons incarnates an unconditional respect for the dignity of human life.  Of course, the disembodied anthropology that implicitly informs Neumark&#8217;s social/political views logistically—in theory&#8211; undermines the value of embodied social-justice work.  Yet, absent an incarnate care for all human life&#8211;regardless of whether that life, at any age, is sinful in any sense&#8211;a care visibly embodied in Neumark&#8217;s work, an integrated and embodied anthropology becomes a moralistic disincarnate set of principles incapable of moving anyone to an unconditional concern for others.</p>
<p>I add only that caritas and reason aren&#8217;t opposed&#8211;rather, caritas is the highest form of reason.  The eternal Logos desired and loved us before we were anyone and before there was anything.  His desire and love for all his sons and daughters is engrained in the human heart.  The desire and love to give the caritas given us&#8211;a desire that is distorted and misunderstood in original-sin&#8211;is the natural-law of human existence.  Thus, the logic of human life is a logic of caritas—a logic that moves one to recognize all human life as signs of the infinite Caritas they image.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael PS</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/03/06/roe-doe-and-wombless-men/comment-page-1/#comment-92389</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael PS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Mar 2013 15:16:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=58531#comment-92389</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David Nickol

I am dubious about how effective your proposals would be in encouraging women to carry a pregnancy to term.

In the UK we have

1)  A health service, free at the point of use, so a pregnant woman incurs no medical expenses at all, for herself or her baby.

2)  A statutory right to paid maternity leave, with 90% of average earnings for the first six weeks and £135.45 ($198.48) for the next 33 weeks.  Those not in employment get £135.45 a week for the full 39 weeks.  There is also a statutory right to take a further 13 weeks of unpaid maternity leave.  In addition, it is illegal for employers to refuse to give pregnant employees time off for antenatal care or to refuse to pay their normal rate for this time off.

3)  An Equality Act that gives pregnant women protection against unfair treatment, discrimination or dismissal.  

There were 196,083 in 2011, (189,931 for UK residents).  36% of these women had had a least one previous abortion.  There were 688,120 live births during the same year.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Nickol</p>
<p>I am dubious about how effective your proposals would be in encouraging women to carry a pregnancy to term.</p>
<p>In the UK we have</p>
<p>1)  A health service, free at the point of use, so a pregnant woman incurs no medical expenses at all, for herself or her baby.</p>
<p>2)  A statutory right to paid maternity leave, with 90% of average earnings for the first six weeks and £135.45 ($198.48) for the next 33 weeks.  Those not in employment get £135.45 a week for the full 39 weeks.  There is also a statutory right to take a further 13 weeks of unpaid maternity leave.  In addition, it is illegal for employers to refuse to give pregnant employees time off for antenatal care or to refuse to pay their normal rate for this time off.</p>
<p>3)  An Equality Act that gives pregnant women protection against unfair treatment, discrimination or dismissal.  </p>
<p>There were 196,083 in 2011, (189,931 for UK residents).  36% of these women had had a least one previous abortion.  There were 688,120 live births during the same year.</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/03/06/roe-doe-and-wombless-men/comment-page-1/#comment-92387</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Mar 2013 14:55:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=58531#comment-92387</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;I think the article was discussing pro-life groups, not Republicans. &lt;/i&gt;

peg,

I think Bret Lythgoe was making a point similar to mine. I was making a distinction between the pro-life movement &quot;on the ground&quot; and the &lt;i&gt;political&lt;/i&gt; pro-life movement (pro-life politicians, pro-life legislation, and so on). 

&lt;i&gt;It’s an inconvenient truth to abortion supporters and enthusiasts, so it is quashed before it gets into their sealed habitats.&lt;/i&gt;

I think it is not a matter of a truth being &quot;quashed,&quot; but rather a matter of the politics of the anti-abortion movement being highly visible, and the good work of pro-lifers &quot;on the ground&quot; being largely invisible. For example, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/07/us/arkansas-adopts-restrictive-abortion-law.html?pagewanted=2&amp;hpw&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Arkansas&#039;s ban, enacted yesterday, on abortions later than 12 weeks&lt;/a&gt; is front-page news nationwide. It would be difficult for crisis pregnancy centers to make it into the news in with equivalent prominence.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I think the article was discussing pro-life groups, not Republicans. </i></p>
<p>peg,</p>
<p>I think Bret Lythgoe was making a point similar to mine. I was making a distinction between the pro-life movement &#8220;on the ground&#8221; and the <i>political</i> pro-life movement (pro-life politicians, pro-life legislation, and so on). </p>
<p><i>It’s an inconvenient truth to abortion supporters and enthusiasts, so it is quashed before it gets into their sealed habitats.</i></p>
<p>I think it is not a matter of a truth being &#8220;quashed,&#8221; but rather a matter of the politics of the anti-abortion movement being highly visible, and the good work of pro-lifers &#8220;on the ground&#8221; being largely invisible. For example, <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/07/us/arkansas-adopts-restrictive-abortion-law.html?pagewanted=2&amp;hpw" rel="nofollow">Arkansas&#8217;s ban, enacted yesterday, on abortions later than 12 weeks</a> is front-page news nationwide. It would be difficult for crisis pregnancy centers to make it into the news in with equivalent prominence.</p>
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		<title>By: peg</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/03/06/roe-doe-and-wombless-men/comment-page-1/#comment-92379</link>
		<dc:creator>peg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Mar 2013 14:04:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=58531#comment-92379</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Sometimes, Republicans have not been as concerned as they should be with providing the other half of the circle.&quot;

I think the article was discussing pro-life groups, not Republicans.  I agree with others above, in that any pro-life group or people that I know of also support the pregnant women and their dignity. It&#039;s an inconvenient truth to abortion supporters and enthusiasts, so it is quashed before it gets into their sealed habitats.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Sometimes, Republicans have not been as concerned as they should be with providing the other half of the circle.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think the article was discussing pro-life groups, not Republicans.  I agree with others above, in that any pro-life group or people that I know of also support the pregnant women and their dignity. It&#8217;s an inconvenient truth to abortion supporters and enthusiasts, so it is quashed before it gets into their sealed habitats.</p>
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		<title>By: Bret Lythgoe</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/03/06/roe-doe-and-wombless-men/comment-page-1/#comment-92363</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret Lythgoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Mar 2013 07:43:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=58531#comment-92363</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Clearly the best approach, in my judgment, is to have two sides of the circle: the one side, is the protection of the unborn; the other side, is providing the help that pregnant women need, to not only carry the baby to term, but provide properly for herself, and the child afterwards. Sometimes, Republicans have not been as concerned as they should be with providing the other half of the circle.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clearly the best approach, in my judgment, is to have two sides of the circle: the one side, is the protection of the unborn; the other side, is providing the help that pregnant women need, to not only carry the baby to term, but provide properly for herself, and the child afterwards. Sometimes, Republicans have not been as concerned as they should be with providing the other half of the circle.</p>
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		<title>By: Julie</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/03/06/roe-doe-and-wombless-men/comment-page-1/#comment-92344</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Mar 2013 01:38:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=58531#comment-92344</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Subsidiarity is the idea. You&#039;re right, I do not support the Fed government necessarily offering assistance in such a circumstance, I think the local CPCs deserve my support. The local CPCs and even a national charity could better help than the Fed. 

It&#039;s not the help, or paying for the help, we disagree on, it&#039;s the delivery system and where the money should go first.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Subsidiarity is the idea. You&#8217;re right, I do not support the Fed government necessarily offering assistance in such a circumstance, I think the local CPCs deserve my support. The local CPCs and even a national charity could better help than the Fed. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s not the help, or paying for the help, we disagree on, it&#8217;s the delivery system and where the money should go first.</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/03/06/roe-doe-and-wombless-men/comment-page-1/#comment-92339</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Mar 2013 00:05:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=58531#comment-92339</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There are far more people in the United States looking to adopt babies than there are babies to be adopted. Suppose legislation were proposed that any women with an unplanned pregnancy willing to carry the baby to term and give it up for adoption would have all her medical expenses paid and would have a guarantee that she would not be discriminated against in any way (e.g., lose her job) for being pregnant and taking whatever time off she needed to give birth and recover. Perhaps she could even be compensated in some way for going through with the pregnancy. It is possible some women might see this as an incentive to deliberately get pregnant, but as long as the number of parents seeking to adopt was equal to or greater than the number of babies born, I don&#039;t see a problem.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are far more people in the United States looking to adopt babies than there are babies to be adopted. Suppose legislation were proposed that any women with an unplanned pregnancy willing to carry the baby to term and give it up for adoption would have all her medical expenses paid and would have a guarantee that she would not be discriminated against in any way (e.g., lose her job) for being pregnant and taking whatever time off she needed to give birth and recover. Perhaps she could even be compensated in some way for going through with the pregnancy. It is possible some women might see this as an incentive to deliberately get pregnant, but as long as the number of parents seeking to adopt was equal to or greater than the number of babies born, I don&#8217;t see a problem.</p>
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		<title>By: David Nickol</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/03/06/roe-doe-and-wombless-men/comment-page-1/#comment-92338</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nickol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Mar 2013 23:51:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=58531#comment-92338</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We are often made aware of the good work the pro-life movement does in running such things as crisis pregnancy centers. The problem, it seems to me, is that the &quot;political wing&quot; of the pro-life movement seems to be almost exclusively interested in making abortions more difficult to obtain, and scarcely interested at all in helping women to either avoid unplanned pregnancies or go through with an unplanned pregnancy and keep the baby (or give it up for adoption). Those in the pro-life movement are generally politically conservative, and as a result of that, they are not likely to support public assistance to help mothers with unplanned pregnancies carry the babies to term. 

Who agrees with the following?

&lt;blockquote&gt;[I]t is the task of law to pursue a reform of society and of conditions of life in all milieux, starting with the most deprived, so that always and everywhere it may be possible to give every child coming into this world a welcome worthy of a person. Help for families and for unmarried mothers, assured grants for children, a statute for illegitimate children and reasonable arrangements for adoption - a whole positive policy must be put into force so that there will always be a concrete, honorable and possible alternative to abortion.&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We are often made aware of the good work the pro-life movement does in running such things as crisis pregnancy centers. The problem, it seems to me, is that the &#8220;political wing&#8221; of the pro-life movement seems to be almost exclusively interested in making abortions more difficult to obtain, and scarcely interested at all in helping women to either avoid unplanned pregnancies or go through with an unplanned pregnancy and keep the baby (or give it up for adoption). Those in the pro-life movement are generally politically conservative, and as a result of that, they are not likely to support public assistance to help mothers with unplanned pregnancies carry the babies to term. </p>
<p>Who agrees with the following?</p>
<blockquote><p>[I]t is the task of law to pursue a reform of society and of conditions of life in all milieux, starting with the most deprived, so that always and everywhere it may be possible to give every child coming into this world a welcome worthy of a person. Help for families and for unmarried mothers, assured grants for children, a statute for illegitimate children and reasonable arrangements for adoption &#8211; a whole positive policy must be put into force so that there will always be a concrete, honorable and possible alternative to abortion.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Julie</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/03/06/roe-doe-and-wombless-men/comment-page-1/#comment-92333</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Mar 2013 22:11:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=58531#comment-92333</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The pro-life groups and people I know all support the mother and her dignity as much as the child.  It is rather cliche in your conclusion to say that pro-life people only care about the child.  That is what the mainstream narrative / pro-abortion narrative wants people to believe.  It&#039;s not the reality of the situation.  I believe it would be a  challenge to find a true pro-life organization that is saving babies that does not help the mother and recognize her dignity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The pro-life groups and people I know all support the mother and her dignity as much as the child.  It is rather cliche in your conclusion to say that pro-life people only care about the child.  That is what the mainstream narrative / pro-abortion narrative wants people to believe.  It&#8217;s not the reality of the situation.  I believe it would be a  challenge to find a true pro-life organization that is saving babies that does not help the mother and recognize her dignity.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeannine</title>
		<link>http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/03/06/roe-doe-and-wombless-men/comment-page-1/#comment-92331</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeannine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Mar 2013 22:08:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/?p=58531#comment-92331</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;What the pro-life movement lacks is a greater emphasis on the dignity of all human life, wether [sic] innocent or not.&quot;

I contend that the pro-life movement does emphasize the dignity of all human life, but is ignored when it does so, partly because this emphasis is inconvenient to the opponents of the pro-life movement and partly because ignoring it causes people not to know about it at all. My own area has several pro-life ministries designed to help and support mothers to bear and raise their children, but they are rarely mentioned publicly (in newspapers or on TV news, for example).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What the pro-life movement lacks is a greater emphasis on the dignity of all human life, wether [sic] innocent or not.&#8221;</p>
<p>I contend that the pro-life movement does emphasize the dignity of all human life, but is ignored when it does so, partly because this emphasis is inconvenient to the opponents of the pro-life movement and partly because ignoring it causes people not to know about it at all. My own area has several pro-life ministries designed to help and support mothers to bear and raise their children, but they are rarely mentioned publicly (in newspapers or on TV news, for example).</p>
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